John 16 prophecy for Muhammed?

[gnostic]

I am rather skeptical about the whole religion thingy, including the Christian bible (gospels, letters and revelation, etc).

However, as a student of mythology, I have to study ancient literature to understand. (Of course, I don't always understand the whole mystic thingy, especially when I am dealing with symbols and motif. But that a different story.) So I have to do this scholarly research and all when I am reading such literature.

And when you are dealing with these religious or mythological literature, you'll have to not just cherry-picking a verse here or verse there, and then try to twist something out of those verses to mean something other than the original context.

Now John 15:26-27 and John 16:1-15, in Christian teaching referred to the Holy Spirit, with other names like the Spirit of Truth and the Advocate.

Now Jesus said:

But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

He was speaking to his closest disciples (apostles) here. I would think that this mean that it would happen in the apostles' lifetime, and not some 500 or 600 years later with Muhammad.

You have to ask why the Muslims have the tendency to ignore this part in the verse. Did Muhammad appeared to Jesus' apostles after Jesus left?

I don't think so.

And Muslims who advocate that this Spirit is Muhammad, completely ignored what happen in Acts 1. Jesus again explained to his surviving apostles (minus Judas Iscariot) about the Holy Spirit, arriving shortly after Jesus ascends:

On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

This is the second time, Jesus specify a specific time that the Holy Spirit will arrive. "In a few days", not years or century from then.

And Jesus spoke of bestowing this power of the Holy Spirit to them - the apostles.

He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

You will have to ask yourself, would Muhammad be able to bestow any power on Jesus' apostles, when he is not even born yet; not for another 5 centuries.

I will have to say, despite not being a Christian, that I would dismiss Muslims' claim that this spirit of truth or advocate or whatever name it is, to be Muhammad. Clearly it is poor scholarship and Muslim propaganda.

 

[Gaura Priya]

Muhammad speaks revelation to mankind along with coming to wage war, unlike Jesus. Vastly different aren't they? Why would Jesus send someone so polar opposite to him. I am not sure who Muhammad was comforting, but his actions are not very comforting.

Show me in the Qur'an that Muhammad came to wage war...

Jesus said that he came to bring not peace, but a sword.

 

[Gaura Priya]

but doest Islam make an allowance for 'temporary' marriage? so that if a man is abroad for a length of time, he can marry a girl for a short time until he returns to his family. Jesus teachings about marriage were completely different in that he said if you divorce your wife and take another, you are committing adultery.

So how could a prophet of God recommend a form of adultery to its followers? God would NEVER want that.

In the Qur'an, there is no temporary marriage. According to the Qur'an, God has made His people to be mates unto each other, and created us all by twos. It also allows that the ideal is to have one mate within a marriage, and prescribes a divorce.

 

[Gaura Priya]

I will have to say, despite not being a Christian, that I would dismiss Muslims' claim that this spirit of truth or advocate or whatever name it is, to be Muhammad. Clearly it is poor scholarship and Muslim propaganda.

I agree with you, but it is as much propaganda as claiming that Jesus was the Messiah, and the fulfillment of 'prophecies' in the Tanakh. He was not the Prince of Peace, because Jesus did not come to bring peace. He was not the Father, because he did not claim to be the Father. These so-called allusions to Jesus in the Tanakh are really wishful thinking to Jews, and he was just another charismatic rabbi who decided to begin a revolution.

 

[gnostic]

I agree with you, but it is as much propaganda as claiming that Jesus was the Messiah, and the fulfillment of 'prophecies' in the Tanakh.

Oh, I have no doubt that Christians do the same thing with the Tanakh. I have in the past and in other topics, presented counter-arguments when Christians used the Hebrew scriptures to claim this prophecy or that had to do with Jesus. The Muslims do it with both, quoting passages, and claiming "Lo! That's Muhammad".

What I haven't seen, is Jews using the Christian or Islamic scriptures, quoting their passages to suit their agenda.

 

[Pegg]

In the Qur'an, there is no temporary marriage. According to the Qur'an, God has made His people to be mates unto each other, and created us all by twos. It also allows that the ideal is to have one mate within a marriage, and prescribes a divorce.

Its actually called a pleasure marriage. A marriage purely for sexual pleasure.
Nikāḥ al-Mutʿah (Arabic: نكاح المتعة‎ "pleasure marriage")

This is from wiki:
Shia Muslims believe that this institution was established by God through the Islamic prophet Muhammad in the Qur'an. Its single mention in the Qur'an is verse 4:24. Tafsir:

فَمَا اسْتَمْتَعْتُمْ بِهِ مِنْهُنَّ فَـَاتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ فَرِيضَةً
"Then give those of these women you have enjoyed the agreed dower" was revealed on the subject of the mut‘ah marriage."

​

Shia Muslims have "consensus" (ijma) on interpretation of the following verse in the Quran.

And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that ye seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery. And those of whom ye seek content (by marrying them), give unto them their portions as a duty. And there is no sin for you in what ye do by mutual agreement after the duty (hath been done). Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Wise.[Quran 4:24]
​

al-Tabari, in his Tafsir, writes under this verse a hadith from Mujahid: "The phrase "Then give those of these women you have enjoyed the agreed dower" means the temporary marriage."



Jesus, on the other hand, did away with divorce all together. He said 'What God has yolked together, let no man put apart' He added that only adultery or death would give you a reason to divorce and remarry. Anything besides those two reasons amounted to adultery....a sin punishable by death under the mosaic law.

 

[Villager]

What I haven't seen, is Jews using the Christian or Islamic scriptures, quoting their passages to suit their agenda.

But then they are hardly in a position to do so, claiming, as they do, that the NT and the Qur'an are spurious. What Jews cannot do is show that Judaism arose from the start of the chronology in the Tanakh. What Jews cannot do is show that Christianity is no part of what they call Jewish tradition. What Jews cannot do is show that Christianity was not originally a belief that was accepted by Jews, in Judea; that the interpretation that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah was made by Jews, Jews of Jerusalem and of all the diaspora, moreover. They cannot deny that many of the first Christians were priests and Pharisees, and that some of those people took a lot of persuasion that many of the habits of the old religion were superseded. They cannot deny that Paul, named after their first king, a Benjaminite, a Pharisee, a member of their own Sanhedrin, was one of their own. They cannot for a moment deny that Paul, Peter, James and John rooted their whole theology and indeed practice in principles that existed before Judah was born, Judah, the scion from whom they claim to get their name. They of course disagree on the interpretation that those men made, but it is undeniable that the claim of those men relates to the very same unadulterated texts that they use themselves. Those who call themselves Jews cannot prove that they are Jews, and cannot prove that the true worship of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Judah, Moses, Aaron, Joshua, Gideon, David, Elijah, Hezekiah, Jeremiah and Daniel is not represented by the Messiah-ans, the Christians. Those who claim to be Jews have a moral and intellectual obligation to pro-actively demonstrate that the claim that Jesus is their Messiah is untrue.

Muslims, otoh, they can easily dismiss as frivolous, because Muhammad had no personal connexion at all with Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, Joseph, Judah, Moses, Aaron, Joshua, Gideon, David, Elijah, Hezekiah, Jeremiah, Daniel or any other descendant of Abraham, either through inherited genes or through inherited culture. Muhammad wrote, without a shred of evidence, that the texts that Jews used were corrupted, which of course means that any claim that he made for Abrahamic ancestry is worthless. It means that Jews can (and indeed must) totally ignore his book and his following. Muhammad wrote a pretentious book entirely without provenance, one that has no more religious validity than a novel by Barbara Taylor Bradford has (though I must admit that I've never read one of those). In other words, Muhammad was not a man of substance, not a man who deserves any attention. Theologically, Muhammad is invisible.

As everyone knows.

 

[Gaura Priya]

"This day are all good things made lawful for you. The food of those who have received the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them. And so are the virtuous women of the believers and the virtuous women of those who received the Scripture before you lawful for you when ye give them their marriage portions and live with them in honour, not in fornication, nor taking them as secret concubines. Whoso denieth the faith, his work is vain and he will be among the losers in the Hereafter."

-- Qur'an 5:5

Its actually called a pleasure marriage. A marriage purely for sexual pleasure.
Nikāḥ al-Mutʿah (Arabic: نكاح المتعة‎ "pleasure marriage")

This is from wiki:
Shia Muslims believe that this institution was established by God through the Islamic prophet Muhammad in the Qur'an. Its single mention in the Qur'an is verse 4:24. Tafsir:

فَمَا اسْتَمْتَعْتُمْ بِهِ مِنْهُنَّ فَـَاتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ فَرِيضَةً
"Then give those of these women you have enjoyed the agreed dower" was revealed on the subject of the mut‘ah marriage."

​

Shia Muslims have "consensus" (ijma) on interpretation of the following verse in the Quran.

And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that ye seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery. And those of whom ye seek content (by marrying them), give unto them their portions as a duty. And there is no sin for you in what ye do by mutual agreement after the duty (hath been done). Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Wise.[Quran 4:24]
​

al-Tabari, in his Tafsir, writes under this verse a hadith from Mujahid: "The phrase "Then give those of these women you have enjoyed the agreed dower" means the temporary marriage."



Jesus, on the other hand, did away with divorce all together. He said 'What God has yolked together, let no man put apart' He added that only adultery or death would give you a reason to divorce and remarry. Anything besides those two reasons amounted to adultery....a sin punishable by death under the mosaic law.

Unfortunately only certain fanatical Shia schools believe that this verse has anything to do with pleasure marriages. Sunnis believe that it is abrogated, and it is a foreign practice in Ahmadi Islam as well. Qur'anists also do not see this very vague interpretation of this verse.

This verse simply explains about requirement of dowry for men to pay to the womenfolk.

"And all married women are forbidden unto you save those captives whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that ye seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery. And those of whom ye seek content by marrying them, give unto them their portions as a duty. And there is no sin for you in what ye do by mutual agreement after the duty hath been done. Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Wise."

-- 4:24​

And if the man cannot marry a woman and is desperate, he is welcome to marry one of his maidservants who has qualities of godliness.

"And whoso is not able to afford to marry free, believing women, let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess. Allah knoweth best concerning your faith. Ye proceed one from another; so wed them by permission of their folk, and give unto them their portions in kindness, they being honest, not debauched nor of loose conduct. And if when they are honourably married they commit lewdness they shall incur the half of the punishment prescribed for free women in that case. This is for him among you who feareth to commit sin. But to have patience would be better for you. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

-- 4:25​

However, God says that it is better for a man to wait until he can marry a believing woman, rather than just any person.

Now, what does Allah say about marriage?


"And of His signs is this: He created for you helpmeets from yourselves that ye might find rest in them, and He ordained between you love and mercy. Lo! herein indeed are portents for folk who reflect."

-- 30:21


"And all things We have created by pairs, that haply ye may reflect."

-- 51:49

 

[Gaura Priya]

What I haven't seen, is Jews using the Christian or Islamic scriptures, quoting their passages to suit their agenda.

Now I want to see THAT!!

:rainbow1:

 

[Villager]

Now I want to see THAT!!

It would make no sense to expect it. Christians do not quote the Qur'an for constructive reasons, because they believe that it is entirely destructive. Likewise, Jews are hardly in a position to quote the NT or the Qur'an, claiming, as they do, that both the NT and the Qur'an are spurious. It was only Muhammad whose special genius permitted him to simultaneously trash the Tanakh and claim legitimacy from it!

But then if human beings can believe that three persons are one person, they can believe absolutely anything at all.

 

[quickdraw]

Show me in the Qur'an that Muhammad came to wage war...

Jesus said that he came to bring not peace, but a sword.

In context, this "sword" verse by Jesus could be meaning the enmity it brings between an individual that accepts Jesus and their family, especially considering that most Jews did not accept Jesus at their Messiah. There is also this verse below which is obviously a literal sword. There are countless scriptures that support Jesus coming under the banner of love and not the sword. As far as Muhammad, there are numerous historical accounts of his wars, and there are other books besides the Qur'an that Islam looks to. When Muhammad's received his "new interpretation" of the Abrahamic religion, he was thrown out from where he lived, and he then began his offensive wars of those countries near him and far from him starting with the Battle of Badr, it was a convert or die campaign. I think we were talking about who Jesus was going to "send" after he left earth, was it the Holy Spirit, Muhammad, or something else. My point was it was not Muhammad because Jesus and Muhammad are quite the opposite of each other.

52 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."

 

[Gaura Priya]

This is just too funny.

Abrahamics are interesting in general. The Jews see Christianity as an apostate religion that began as a cult; the Christians see that with Islam, and the Muslims now do so with the Baha'i Faith. It's very interesting to note that in general...

 

[Villager]

In context, this "sword" verse by Jesus could be meaning the enmity it brings between an individual that accepts Jesus and their family, especially considering that most Jews did not accept Jesus at their Messiah.

Those with swords, metallic or verbal, are no Christians. The irony is that the sword that Jesus brings is in part the accusation by those who oppose Christians that they, Christians, have a sword. People find Christianity too tough, because the saints are commanded to get rid of all bitterness, malice, anger and strife, and to give a soft answer rather than a retaliation. People know that Christians love their enemies, and do not even frown, if it implies personal enmity; yet they accuse them of the actual, physical violence of others.

 

[Jason]

John 16

1 “All this I have told you so that you will not fall away. 2 They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. 3 They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. 4 I have told you this, so that when their time comes you will remember that I warned you about them. I did not tell you this from the beginning because I was with you, 5 but now I am going to him who sent me. None of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6 Rather, you are filled with grief because I have said these things. 7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”


Is this a prophecy for the holy spirit, Muhammed or some other person altogether? Also what reason do you have for your answer? Discuss

That's what the Holy Qur'an says in these ayahs directly concerning the fulfillment of that Prophecy.

26:192 This is a revelation from the Lord of the universe.
26:193 The Honest Spirit (Gabriel) came down with it.
26:194 To reveal it into your heart, that you may be one of the warners.
26:195 In a perfect Arabic tongue.
26:196 It has been prophesied in the books of previous generations.
26:197 Is it not a sufficient sign for them that it was known to the scholars among the Children of Israel?
26:198 If we revealed this to people who do not know Arabic.
26:199 And had him recite it (in Arabic), they could not possibly believe in it.
26:200 We thus render it (like a foreign language) in the hearts of the guilty.
26:201 Thus, they cannot believe in it; not until they see the painful retribution.
26:202 It will come to them suddenly, when they least expect it.
26:203 They will then say, "Can we have a respite?"
26:204 Did they not challenge our retribution?
26:205 As you see, we allowed them to enjoy for years.
26:206 Then the retribution came to them, just as promised.
26:207 Their vast resources did not help them in the least.
26:208 We never annihilate any community without sending warners.
26:209 Therefore, this is a reminder, for we are never unjust.
26:210 The devils can never reveal this.
26:211 They neither would, nor could.
26:212 For they are prevented from hearing.
26:213 Therefore, do not idolize beside GOD any other god, lest you incur the retribution.
26:214 You shall preach to the people who are closest to you.
26:215 And lower your wing for the believers who follow you.
26:216 If they disobey you, then say, "I disown what you do."
26:217 And put your trust in the Almighty, Most Merciful.
26:218 Who sees you when you meditate during the night.
26:219 And your frequent prostrations.
26:220 He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.
​

Edit:
This also references the Prophecy in Isaiah 28:9-13.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

This is just too funny.

Abrahamics are interesting in general. The Jews see Christianity as an apostate religion that began as a cult; the Christians see that with Islam, and the Muslims now do so with the Baha'i Faith. It's very interesting to note that in general...

Certainly no more interesting (or funny) than to note such ridicule from our Liberal Vaishnava.

 

[Gaura Priya]

Certainly no more interesting (or funny) than to note such ridicule from our Liberal Vaishnava.

An oxymoron at its best. The synthesis of both the thesis and its antithesis!