Jordan Peterson and Bill Maher...

[SomeRandom]

So we have a point of agreement. Now there are trans-activists who take issue with that stance, calling it transphobic. Because they would like us all to accept the claim that a transwoman is a woman. To me, this is a biological claim, and it's false.

And we've seen in recent weeks endless debates on this forum concerning how we define "woman".

I have no issues with accepting a trans woman as a woman.
If they fit the social and biological aspects (typically through surgery) then they are women.

“Female” is perhaps more the biological term, really.
Though that might be dependant on who you ask, I suppose
The term “Woman” is not always seen as strictly a biological term, moreso a social term we use in everyday speech. Which may go towards explaining the fluidity in terms of definitions. Although I guess the term female also has some fluidity in its definitions.
A woman who does not possess a functioning uterus, for example, would be aghast and appalled to not be labelled a woman.
A man may have a similar reaction if he is no longer labelled a man for say, not having functioning testicles.

Biology is biology, but we tend to be more forgiving in everyday speech. Though I will admit that that too can be rather specific. Again due to English being an intense language, arguably

 

[Secret Chief]

A two part answer:

First, WPATH, AAP, and the Endocrine society drive the rest of those organizations as I explained earlier. Doctors CANNOT specialize across the board and the strong tendency is to support other doctors. And the 3 organizations I listed all have a vested interest in these extreme, and extremely profitable interventions.

Tell me why you think this is different than the oxy situation?

==

As for the safety of puberty blockers and/or hormones:

Revisiting the effect of GnRH analogue treatment on bone mineral density in young adolescents with gender dysphoria

An Examination of the Effects of Leuprolide Acetate Used in the Treatment of Central Precocious Puberty on Bone Mineral Density and 25-Hydroxy Vitamin D

Osteoporosis and Bone Health in Transgender Persons

Occurrence of Slipped Capital Femoral Epiphysis in Children Undergoing Gonadotropin-Releasing Hormone Agonist Therapy for the Treatment of Central Precocious Puberty

https://t.co/oGZSCqZWMy

I can go on...

OK, I would just say I'd go with the BMA and NHS for a start...

Gender incongruence in primary care

Gender dysphoria - Treatment

(sorry, I don't know about oxy)

 

[Secret Chief]

post-truth, post-modern utterances.

Can you elaborate?

 

[Secret Chief]

As for "working it through", I would say let's not allow men (and that includes trans women), into women's safe spaces until we've worked it through, not while we're working it through.

For better and or worse I think that's not viable. Things change and will continue to evolve, mistakes made, and improvements made. I live in a bog standard average sort of town and the local shopping centre has just had new toilets installed. No gender/sex distinction or separation...

 

[Secret Chief]

See my post #197.

Well yes I'm sure the UK and US situations are different. I'm happy with how the system works here (apart from being underfunded), although I've not had personal experience regarding gender dysphoria.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Can you cite the studies that indicate that these extreme interventions are "the best treatment"?

Again? This has preciously been provided to you in other threads and like the transphibe you are you dismissed it as biased with a political agenda. So no, I won't waiste my time doing again what has already been done for you multiple times.
It's obvious you'd rathet take in biased sources than peer reviewed scientific and medical sources.

 

[icehorse]

I have no issues with accepting a trans woman as a woman.
If they fit the social and biological aspects (typically through surgery) then they are women.

They cannot - if we're honest - fit the biological aspects.

“Female” is perhaps more the biological term, really.
Though that might be dependant on who you ask, I suppose
The term “Woman” is not always seen as strictly a biological term, moreso a social term we use in everyday speech. Which may go towards explaining the fluidity in terms of definitions.

As a thought experiment, what would you say if all the restrooms in the world were labeled "male" and "female"? Would you agree that trans women should not be allowed in the "female" restroom? How about safe houses for "females"?

In other words, when it comes to the safety of WOMEN, the world has already decided that woman is a biological term.

 

[icehorse]

Again? This has preciously been provided to you in other threads and like the transphibe you are you dismissed it as biased with a political agenda. So no, I won't waiste my time doing again what has already been done for you multiple times.
It's obvious you'd rathet take in biased sources than peer reviewed scientific and medical sources.

I think what's been provided to me is now not holding up to harsher review. I'm not asking for old studies that are now in question.

 

[icehorse]

For better and or worse I think that's not viable. Things change and will continue to evolve, mistakes made, and improvements made. I live in a bog standard average sort of town and the local shopping centre has just had new toilets installed. No gender/sex distinction or separation...

I think it's not viable to negatively impact the safety of all women to provide convenience for a tiny few trans women.

 

[Secret Chief]

I think it's not viable to negatively impact the safety of all women to provide convenience for a tiny few trans women.

I appreciate that pov.

 

[icehorse]

OK, I would just say I'd go with the BMA and NHS for a start...

Gender incongruence in primary care

Gender dysphoria - Treatment

(sorry, I don't know about oxy)

I think those two links largely support my claims, no?

As for "oxy" - really? You haven't heard of the huge number of people (millions?), who have become addicted to this dangerous pain killer?

 

[SomeRandom]

They cannot - if we're honest - fit the biological aspects.

Neither can all born women, to be completely honest. Biology accounts for all outcomes in human beings. To quote my old biology text book
“It is scientifically impossible for a society of humans to be compromised of males who are all 100% male and females who are all 100% female.”
That’s just how bimodal distribution works, right?

As a thought experiment, what would you say if all the restrooms in the world were labeled "male" and "female"? Would you agree that trans women should not be allowed in the "female" restroom? How about safe houses for "females"?

In other words, when it comes to the safety of WOMEN, the world has already decided that woman is a biological term.

Society typically comes up with the definitions to all these terms. All words are made up after all. And definitions change all the time. A stagnant language is a dead language

I would not agree that a trans woman should not be allowed in a restroom that reads female. Due to the context in which the term is being used. A bathroom is not a biology study, after all.

With regards to female safe houses and the like, that’s where things get complicated. I could see an argument being made for allowing post surgery trans individuals and I can see arguments against it. No one said this world was simple though

 

[Secret Chief]

I think those two links largely support my claims, no?

They seem to present a balanced and informed overview to me.

As for "oxy" - really? You haven't heard of the huge number of people (millions?), who have become addicted to this dangerous pain killer?

Not at all, I must lead a sheltered life?!

 

[icehorse]

Neither can all born women, to be completely honest. Biology accounts for all outcomes in human beings. To quote my old biology text book
“It is scientifically impossible for a society of humans to be compromised of males who are all 100% male and females who are all 100% female.”
That’s just how bimodal distribution works, right?

Of course biology isn't 100% perfect. But why take an imperfect solution and allow it to become much worse?

Society typically comes up with the definitions to all these terms. All words are made up after all. And definitions change all the time. A stagnant language is a dead language

There is a huge difference between the natural evolution of language, and the attempted forcing of linguistic changes at gunpoint. The latter is usually associated with authoritarian takeovers, right?

With regards to female safe houses and the like, that’s where things get complicated. I could see an argument being made for allowing post surgery trans individuals and I can see arguments against it. No one said this world was simple though

Again, risking the safety of all women to make life more convenient for a few trans women?

 

[SomeRandom]

Of course biology isn't 100% perfect. But why take an imperfect solution and allow it to become much worse?

Much worse?

There is a huge difference between the natural evolution of language, and the attempted forcing of linguistic changes at gunpoint. The latter is usually associated with authoritarian takeovers, right?

Usually. But with all things, there is nuance.
Slurs being deemed socially inappropriate for example. One could point both to natural linguistic evolution and forced changes. Depending on the society and era
Sometimes in order to progress society will be dragged kicking and screaming, so to speak

 

[SomeRandom]

Again, risking the safety of all women to make life more convenient for a few trans women?

I’m not saying we shouldn’t have barriers and no doubt those details will be ironed out for many years to come.
But you know, trans people who experienced trauma aren’t going to automatically attack other women in shelters just because we allow them entry. I mean obviously there might be individuals who might do that. But that could also potentially happen between two cis women.
I’m not saying that women there don’t have the right to express concerns and the need to feel safe is paramount. This will perhaps differ according to the individual though

 

[icehorse]

I’m not saying we shouldn’t have barriers and no doubt those details will be ironed out for many years to come.
But you know, trans people who experienced trauma aren’t going to automatically attack other women in shelters just because we allow them entry. I mean obviously there might be individuals who might do that. But that could also potentially happen between two cis women.
I’m not saying that women there don’t have the right to express concerns and the need to feel safe is paramount. This will perhaps differ according to the individual though

I'm not claiming that trans people are more violent than non trans. The point is that violent men will take advantage if they're allowed into women's safe spaces.

Sometimes in order to progress society will be dragged kicking and screaming, so to speak

Yes, and sometimes new ideas are just bad ideas.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes, and sometimes new ideas are just bad ideas.

Another reason I said no because you've been told before it's not new.

I think what's been provided to me is now not holding up to harsher review. I'm not asking for old studies that are now in question.

Better inform the larger medical world.
And as we've ready explained, you're looking at a very small number--a number far smaller than that of other medical procedures--amd trying to say it's larger than it is and misunderstanding what's being said, like detransition.

 

[SomeRandom]

I'm not claiming that trans people are more violent than non trans. The point is that violent men will take advantage if they're allowed into women's safe spaces.

And trans women actual trans women are safer around cis men when they seek out shelters?

Yes, and sometimes new ideas are just bad ideas.

Time usually divides the good and bad ideas. Not always.
Incidentally my mother’s culture has recognised 3 genders for the last 6 thousand years

 

[icehorse]

And trans women actual trans women are safer around cis men when they seek out shelters?

Probably not - so we have to find solutions for trans women that protect them but do not put women at higher risk.