Joseph Campbell on "Psychological Crack-Up"

[Debater Slayer]

In another thread, I responded to this quote from Joseph Campbell:

I have attended a number of psychological conferences dealing with this whole problem of the difference between the mystical experience and the psychological crack-up. The difference is that the one who cracks up is drowning in the water in which the mystic swims. You have to be prepared for this experience.

This was my response:

This seems to me a very patronizing and potentially damaging thing to say about mental illness. People who have psychosis or schizophrenia don't "crack up" because of some mystical experience; their condition usually develops either as a result of some genetic predisposition or severe trauma that triggers the illness. Saying that they "drowned" implies weakness, which is no different from saying that diabetics or people with hypertension "drowned in the water in which [insert healthy group here] swim."

Joseph Campbell was a writer, not a psychologist or psychiatrist. Thankfully, public understanding of mental illness has grown considerably since he wrote the above misunderstanding.

What do you think of Joseph Campbell's view as stated above? Do you think he was right, or do you agree that he was both unqualified to offer an expert opinion on "psychological crack-up," which mainly seems to be about psychosis, and presenting a misunderstanding in the above quote?

I think it runs counter to the evidence that psychosis is a biological issue—much like diabetes or hypertension—due to chemical imbalances in the brain often resulting from genetic and environmental factors. There's a reason psyhosis and schizophrenia are usually treated with dopamine antagonists, and research has also shown that genetic predisposition as well as environmental factors tend to play a part in the development of the illness:

Recently, it has become increasingly clear that many of the current theories, such as the “chemical imbalance theory”, the “genetic vulnerability theory”, the “complex disease theory” and the “stress & vulnerability theory” all share similar conclusions. The majority of researchers now agree that most cases of psychosis, like many other common disorders, such as heart disease, diabetes and asthma, to name a few, are caused by a combination of inherited genetic factors and external environmental factors.

What Causes Psychosis? - Early Psychosis Intervention

Throughout the years, there have been many different theories about what causes psychosis, many of which have been rejected because they were found to be incorrect. Recently, it has become increasingly clear that many of the current theories, such as the "chemical imbalance theory", the "genetic...

www.earlypsychosis.ca

Discuss.

 

[Father Heathen]

Is this Campbell guy suggesting that "mystics" are mentally ill people who use religion as a coping mechanism?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Is this Campbell guy suggesting that "mystics" are mentally ill people who use religion as a coping mechanism?

Unless I'm missing something, he seems to me to be suggesting, rather patronizingly and stigmatizingly, that having a mental illness implies failure to avoid "drowning in the waters in which mystics swim." I don't think he's suggesting that mystics are mentally ill; just that some apparently "can't handle" mystical experiences and develop psychosis as a result.

He wasn't a medical expert, and even if he had been, his knowledge would have been heavily outdated by now considering that he died in 1987.

Psychosis is a complicated and usually lifelong illness. As with other complicated mental illnesses, I utterly loathe misconceptions about it and negative implications about those who suffer from it. Many organizations and individuals have fought tooth and nail for decades to raise public awareness about mental health issues, so I think that such a statement from a public figure runs counter to those efforts.

 

[ChristineM]

Im thinking this Joseph Campbell bod has no idea what he's talking about.

I think the difference between a mystical experience and a mental illness is one is woo and the other is seriously ill. Of course i also may have no idea what im talking about. Although i have no experience of mystical whatever except what i have read i do happen to have had considerable experience with my brother in law who is both paranoid and grandeur schizophrenic

 

[Debater Slayer]

Im thinking this Joseph Campbell bod has no idea what he's talking about.

I think the difference between a mystical experience and a mental illness is one is woo and the other is seriously ill. Of course i also may have no idea what im talking about. Although i have no experience of mystical whatever except what i have read i do happen to have had considerable experience with my brother in law who is both paranoid and grandeur schizophrenic

I agree that Joseph Campbell had no idea what he was talking about in relation to mental illness, but I also believe mystical experiences are a lot more than mere "woo." I believe they are real and almost surely have a foundation in our brain and its processes, even if we don't fully understand the latter two yet.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What do you think of Joseph Campbell's view as stated above? Do you think he was right, or do you agree that he was both unqualified to offer an expert opinion on "psychological crack-up," which mainly seems to be about psychosis, and presenting a misunderstanding in the above quote?

Well, New Age types, certain Christians and schizophrenics are the only ones I've known who battle with spiritual forces. I also didn't see the connection saying the crack up is that way from a mystical experience. Just a more illustrative way of saying something that runs parallel with what I said.
Where I have questions and likely doubts is what is meant by swimming in mystical experience. Would this mean someone like Gautama Buddha or the monks of most religions?

 

[The Hammer]

Where I have questions and likely doubts is what is meant by swimming in mystical experience. Would this mean someone like Gautama Buddha or the monks of most religions?

Yes

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes

Based on what?

 

[The Hammer]

Based on what?

Based on the context that his book is about the internal interpretation of myth, legend and story through symbols. And those types figures are the primary sources of myth and legend.

 

[Quagmire]

I don't think Campbell was talking about mental illness in general, I think he was talking about it as a specific reaction to using hallucinogens.

The quote you're using is drawn from an interview with Bill Moyer where they were discussing how peyote rituals had replaced hunting in Native American culture.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ComparativeMythology/comments/3ekb6u
Hence the, "you have to be prepared for this experience".

The experience he's talking about would have to be a reference to the peyote ritual that they're discussing. Otherwise it would have to be a reference to life itself, which wouldn't make much sense and would be a weird way of expressing it anyway.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I don't think Campbell was talking about mental illness in general, I think he was talking about it as a specific reaction to using hallucinogens.

The quote you're using is drawn from an interview with Bill Moyer where they were discussing how peyote rituals had replaced hunting in Native American culture.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ComparativeMythology/comments/3ekb6u
Hence the, "you have to be prepared for this experience".

The experience he's talking about would have to be a reference to the peyote ritual that they're discussing. Otherwise it would have to be a reference to life itself, which wouldn't make much sense and would be a weird way of expressing it anyway.

That makes a lot more sense. Thanks for the info and clarification!

 

[icehorse]

I don't think Campbell was talking about mental illness in general, I think he was talking about it as a specific reaction to using hallucinogens.

The quote you're using is drawn from an interview with Bill Moyer where they were discussing how peyote rituals had replaced hunting in Native American culture.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ComparativeMythology/comments/3ekb6u
Hence the, "you have to be prepared for this experience".

The experience he's talking about would have to be a reference to the peyote ritual that they're discussing. Otherwise it would have to be a reference to life itself, which wouldn't make much sense and would be a weird way of expressing it anyway.

Many (most?), people who take a "heroic" dose of a psychedelic (peyote, mushrooms, LSD, and so on), have an experience far, far, different than any experience they've ever had. And we know so little about how the brain works, that no one can really explain how such experiences happen. So it's very easy to ascribe mystical or spiritual or religious meanings to these experiences.

 

[Quagmire]

Many (most?), people who take a "heroic" dose of a psychedelic (peyote, mushrooms, LSD, and so on), have an experience far, far, different than any experience they've ever had. And we know so little about how the brain works, that no one can really explain how such experiences happen. So it's very easy to ascribe mystical or spiritual or religious meanings to these experiences.

Sadly, This is about as far as we can go with this topic without violating rule 6.