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Judaism and Christianity

Danage

New Member
Shalom aleichem,

I am a Qara’i Jew, or Russian Qaraite. I have been studying Hebrew, as a Jew is meant to do, and I have come up against passages that suggest a Binity or Trinity, such as Deuteronomy 6:4 (I think), where it says, in Hebrew, Shema Yisra-el Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad, which means Hear O Israel God is Sovereign, God is one.

The problem with this passage is that echad is a uni-plural noun. The term Elohim, from which is derived Eloah, is also a uni-plural noun. Isaiah 6:3 also makes allusions to the uni-plurality of the Godhead, where it says ‘Kadosh, kadosh, kadosh’, or, in English, “‘Holy, holy holy’ is the Lord of hosts, the whole world is full of His glory”.

I wondered what you would suggest? I am proud to be Jewish, a convert to Judaism, but the whole idea of the uni-plurality of the Godhead disturbs me. I also feel a calling to be a Methodist minister, and only didn’t because I went for another course, and later I changed my religion from the denomination of Methodism to the movement of Qaraism. I will go to the Methodist church opposite the flat I will move into when I move in a few weeks, but I wanted advice on what I should do. I am aware of the Messianic prophecies of Isaiah 9:6, Isaiah 7:14 and Micah 5:2.

Also I must note that I view the Tanakh as being inspired, but not literally the Word of God. I also view Yahoshua (Jesus) of Nazareth as a great teacher. I also want to be a Christian, but cannot if I don’t believe it.

Todah raba (Thank you very much), and sorry for all the Hebrew.

Danage
 

footprints

Well-Known Member
Shalom aleichem,

I am a Qara’i Jew, or Russian Qaraite. I have been studying Hebrew, as a Jew is meant to do, and I have come up against passages that suggest a Binity or Trinity, such as Deuteronomy 6:4 (I think), where it says, in Hebrew, Shema Yisra-el Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad, which means Hear O Israel God is Sovereign, God is one.

The problem with this passage is that echad is a uni-plural noun. The term Elohim, from which is derived Eloah, is also a uni-plural noun. Isaiah 6:3 also makes allusions to the uni-plurality of the Godhead, where it says ‘Kadosh, kadosh, kadosh’, or, in English, “‘Holy, holy holy’ is the Lord of hosts, the whole world is full of His glory”.

I wondered what you would suggest? I am proud to be Jewish, a convert to Judaism, but the whole idea of the uni-plurality of the Godhead disturbs me. I also feel a calling to be a Methodist minister, and only didn’t because I went for another course, and later I changed my religion from the denomination of Methodism to the movement of Qaraism. I will go to the Methodist church opposite the flat I will move into when I move in a few weeks, but I wanted advice on what I should do. I am aware of the Messianic prophecies of Isaiah 9:6, Isaiah 7:14 and Micah 5:2.

Also I must note that I view the Tanakh as being inspired, but not literally the Word of God. I also view Yahoshua (Jesus) of Nazareth as a great teacher. I also want to be a Christian, but cannot if I don’t believe it.

Todah raba (Thank you very much), and sorry for all the Hebrew.

Danage

Hi Danage, as humans we literally are what we believe. In general terms we do not control our own brains and minds, our minds and brains control us and everything we do.

Spirituality of any form pertains to ridding the mind of life. You can never rid the brain of life and the knowledge gained, however you can cause the mind to look at this knowledge in many different ways. Only when we rid our mind of life can we begin to learn to control it, instead of it controlling us.

All choices in life carry with them consequences. These consequences can either be in a positive or negative direction and what effects a person in a positive or negative way can affect another person in the exact opposite way. Choices are like waves of magnitude as they ring out from a stone dropped in calm water.

In life the choices we make will often not please everybody, so now we have another choice, we can either please the ones we love or we can please our own self. Hopefully in a respectful world, by pleasing our loved ones, we also please our own self and vice versa of course.
 

Bick

Member
Shalom aleichem,

I am a Qara’i Jew, or Russian Qaraite. I have been studying Hebrew, as a Jew is meant to do, and I have come up against passages that suggest a Binity or Trinity, such as Deuteronomy 6:4 (I think), where it says, in Hebrew, Shema Yisra-el Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad, which means Hear O Israel God is Sovereign, God is one.

The problem with this passage is that echad is a uni-plural noun. The term Elohim, from which is derived Eloah, is also a uni-plural noun. Isaiah 6:3 also makes allusions to the uni-plurality of the Godhead, where it says ‘Kadosh, kadosh, kadosh’, or, in English, “‘Holy, holy holy’ is the Lord of hosts, the whole world is full of His glory”.

I wondered what you would suggest? I am proud to be Jewish, a convert to Judaism, but the whole idea of the uni-plurality of the Godhead disturbs me. I also feel a calling to be a Methodist minister, and only didn’t because I went for another course, and later I changed my religion from the denomination of Methodism to the movement of Qaraism. I will go to the Methodist church opposite the flat I will move into when I move in a few weeks, but I wanted advice on what I should do. I am aware of the Messianic prophecies of Isaiah 9:6, Isaiah 7:14 and Micah 5:2.

Also I must note that I view the Tanakh as being inspired, but not literally the Word of God. I also view Yahoshua (Jesus) of Nazareth as a great teacher. I also want to be a Christian, but cannot if I don’t believe it.

Todah raba (Thank you very much), and sorry for all the Hebrew.

Danage

MY COMMENTS: Shalom, Danage. My question is do you believe in and look for a literal Messiah?

In Matthew 22:41 Jesus asked the Jewish leaders, "What do you think about the Christ (annointed)? Whose son is he?
The son of David, they replied.
He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him Lord?
For he says, "The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet."
quoting from Psalm 110:1.

The Messiah may be the son of David according to the flesh, but he is also the Lord who came down from heaven. And only Jesus of Nazereth, son of David through the royal line of Joseph, and through the legal line of Mary.

To me, the uni-plural noun enlightens us that God being invisible Spirit, has expressed himself in the Logos, the Son who became flesh and dwelt among us, even Christ Jesus, who humbled himself to die the death on the cross for the salvation of all.

He is at the right hand of the Father now, but at the appointed time, he will come back to earth in power and great glory to defeat his enemies and rescue his people, Israel, and establish the Messianic Kingdom, the hope of Israel.

I hope this might help some.
 

Danage

New Member
Sorry for not replying sooner, I have been occupied until now.

Hi Danage, as humans we literally are what we believe. In general terms we do not control our own brains and minds, our minds and brains control us and everything we do.

Spirituality of any form pertains to ridding the mind of life. You can never rid the brain of life and the knowledge gained, however you can cause the mind to look at this knowledge in many different ways. Only when we rid our mind of life can we begin to learn to control it, instead of it controlling us.

All choices in life carry with them consequences. These consequences can either be in a positive or negative direction and what effects a person in a positive or negative way can affect another person in the exact opposite way. Choices are like waves of magnitude as they ring out from a stone dropped in calm water.

In life the choices we make will often not please everybody, so now we have another choice, we can either please the ones we love or we can please our own self. Hopefully in a respectful world, by pleasing our loved ones, we also please our own self and vice versa of course.

That's an interesting take on it. Thanks for your thoughts. I shall have to ponder this.

MY COMMENTS: Shalom, Danage. My question is do you believe in and look for a literal Messiah?

Shalom Rick,

I believe that the Messianic figure is an ideal that someone shall live up to, or already has lived up to. As I said, I view Yahoshua (Jesus) and Muhammad (pbuh) as being great teachers, who brought their peoples out of polytheism into monotheism. I am, however, open to Yahoshua being the Messiah, and possibly El Shaddai (God Most High), due to Genesis 1:26, the term Elohim (I worship a being called Eloah, a singular, rather then uni-plural, being), Isaiah 6:3, Isaiah 9:6, and other such evidences.

In Matthew 22:41 Jesus asked the Jewish leaders, "What do you think about the Christ (annointed)? Whose son is he?
The son of David, they replied.
He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him Lord?
For he says, "The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet."
quoting from Psalm 110:1.

The Messiah may be the son of David according to the flesh, but he is also the Lord who came down from heaven. And only Jesus of Nazereth, son of David through the royal line of Joseph, and through the legal line of Mary.

To me, the uni-plural noun enlightens us that God being invisible Spirit, has expressed himself in the Logos, the Son who became flesh and dwelt among us, even Christ Jesus, who humbled himself to die the death on the cross for the salvation of all.

He is at the right hand of the Father now, but at the appointed time, he will come back to earth in power and great glory to defeat his enemies and rescue his people, Israel, and establish the Messianic Kingdom, the hope of Israel.

I hope this might help some.

The uni-plurality of God is evident throughout the entire Tanakh and even in the New Testament. God is spirit, but if He is just spirit, how did he walk in the Garden of Eden? I think you can probably picture the dilemma. I will, however, talk to Christians and attend their services to learn more.

Again, thanks for your thoughts. They do help.

Shalom aleichem.
 

Freelancer7

Active Member
I think the biggest difference between Judaism and Christanity is that I know that Judaism had to exist for the 'Son' to be born, as I, could not have been a bit naughty by kicking a dog or ripping a phone out of a phone box when i was younger without the 'SONS' love, but I do question this Christianity and Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia but love rules and we are all brothers and sisters, arabs and jews
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
It is interesting that Jesus always told his disciples the reason he came was to be killed and raised again "according to scripture". Old Testament... Paul said this as well, that Jesus was crucified, buried and rose again, "according to scripture". Yes there are many prophecies in the O.T. that speak of the Messiah's first coming and how he would be wounded for our transgressions, etc. And many words in the O.T. for God that are plural, indicating God is one but is made of three distinct persons. Like, "let us make man in OUR image...etc. My first thot is that one simply study the Old and New Testaments and let the Holy Spirit illuminate the truth as one studies God's Word.
 

Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member
I am a Qara’i Jew, or Russian Qaraite.

Is that the same thing as Karaite?

Karaite Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I also view Yahoshua (Jesus) of Nazareth as a great teacher. I also want to be a Christian, but cannot if I don’t believe it.

The word is not used as a plural. The uniqueness of G-d is what is expressed. Please see:

Elohim - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You seem confused. You go to a Methodist church? What was the point of your conversion?
 
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Danage

New Member
Is that the same thing as Karaite?

Yes, a Russian Qara'i is a Russian Qaraite, or, to use the more generally accepted spelling, Karaite.

The word is not used as a plural. The uniqueness of G-d is what is expressed.

You seem confused. You go to a Methodist church? What was the point of your conversion?

The word Elohim, I never said was plural. I said it was uni-plural, either that Elohim refers to God and His angels, or it refers to God absolutely, this is a confusing subject. The term Elohim is used in Genesis to describe God (and his angels I presume). I have been doing my own research into the Hebrew word Elohim, with help from my hakham. The word Elohim still is confusing to me. While for a month I have believed that Elohim refers to God and His angels, I have to still deal with the word in Genesis, when God created the world.

I do not go to a Methodist church, only saying that I may, when I move into my new flat. I am proud to be of the Russian Qaraim Abroad, but the term Elohim, Genesis 1:26, Isaiah 6:3 and the Shema confuse me about the true nature of God, whom I call Eloah (the singular form of Elohim). I have believed that God is singular since October 2005, but the uni-plural form of Eloah (Elohim) is a bit ambiguous as to whether it refers to God or God and His angels.
 

Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member
Yes, a Russian Qara'i is a Russian Qaraite, or, to use the more generally accepted spelling, Karaite.

Interesting! You are the first Karaite I've seen post here.

Shalom and welcome to RF, btw.;)

...I do not go to a Methodist church, only saying that I may, when I move into my new flat. I am proud to be of the Russian Qaraim Abroad, but the term Elohim, Genesis 1:26, Isaiah 6:3 and the Shema confuse me about the true nature of God, whom I call Eloah (the singular form of Elohim). I have believed that God is singular since October 2005, but the uni-plural form of Eloah (Elohim) is a bit ambiguous as to whether it refers to God or God and His angels.

Yes, it's confusing, but personally I'm not that concerned about it.

As you can see by my religion label, I'm a Talmudic Jew who has nevertheless Incorporated the teachings of Yeshua into my faith. However, I have firmly rejected all forms of trinitarian-ism and incarnation-ism as being incompatible with my Judaism.

So... your OP asks for advice and I feel I'm uniquely qualified (as the only active Messianic Jew here on RF) to advise you to steer clear of the trinitarian doctrine.
 

Danage

New Member
Interesting! You are the first Karaite I've seen post here.

Shalom and welcome to RF, btw.;)

Thank you.

Yes, it's confusing, but personally I'm not that concerned about it.

As you can see by my religion label, I'm a Talmudic Jew who has nevertheless Incorporated the teachings of Yeshua into my faith. However, I have firmly rejected all forms of trinitarian-ism and incarnation-ism as being incompatible with my Judaism.

So... your OP asks for advice and I feel I'm uniquely qualified (as the only active Messianic Jew here on RF) to advise you to steer clear of the trinitarian doctrine.

Yes, I think you're right. Having thought about it, the whole idea of uniplurality is incompatible with Torah and logic (I have believed in a singular non-uniplural God since October 2005, because of the flawed logic of it, being a Biblical Unitarian at one point, and now I am a Jew). The whole idea of the Trinity was not the first doctrine I rejected, the first was non-observance of the Law. The rejection of the Trinity came six months later.

Thanks for the advice. I think you are correct in saying that Eloah is a singular united God.
 

Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member
Feel free to stop on by the Judaism DIR and Messianic Judaism DIR when you get the chance. :yes:
 

Malkut Yehudah

New Member
Karaites of Malkut Yehudah

a. The true ancient Aramaic name of G-d is “Alahayim,” meaning; Aa means; “First,” La or Le means “big or greatest.” “ha” means; “the.” and “yim” means; “all living;” the heavens, earth, waters, plants, and animals.
 
Alahayim means; “The First, and The Greatest of “all living;” the heavens, earth, waters, plants and animals. See page on the name of G-d.
 
“Alahayim,” is similar to Abra”ham,” meaning; father of the “nations.” Abram is singular, ham (nations) is plural. In the same way Aala (First and
Greatest) is singular, Yim (all living) is plural. One G-d to “all living.”
 
b. G-d said; “Let us make man in “our” image;” G-d was speaking to what he had already created, “our” is; the heavens, earth, waters, plants and animals. Man is created in the image of “the living”; the heavens, earth, waters, plants and animals.
 
c. “Elohim” used by the Pharisee Rabbis, is the Canaanite corruption of the ancient Aramaic name of G-d.
 
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Levite

Higher and Higher
I am a Qara’i Jew, or Russian Qaraite. I have been studying Hebrew, as a Jew is meant to do, and I have come up against passages that suggest a Binity or Trinity, such as Deuteronomy 6:4 (I think), where it says, in Hebrew, Shema Yisra-el Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad, which means Hear O Israel God is Sovereign, God is one.

The problem with this passage is that echad is a uni-plural noun. The term Elohim, from which is derived Eloah, is also a uni-plural noun. Isaiah 6:3 also makes allusions to the uni-plurality of the Godhead, where it says ‘Kadosh, kadosh, kadosh’, or, in English, “‘Holy, holy holy’ is the Lord of hosts, the whole world is full of His glory”.

I wondered what you would suggest? I am proud to be Jewish, a convert to Judaism, but the whole idea of the uni-plurality of the Godhead disturbs me.

I don't really know what you mean by "uni-plurality" here. The word echad is grammatically singular. If it were plural, it would be achadim. No word in the Sh'ma is grammatically plural.

Now, the term Elohim (which is the plural of El: the word Eloah is actually a very archaic construct form of El, which is why it is never really seen alone as a name, but always in conjunction to or of something or someone, e.g. eloah kol bri'ot, God of all creatures) certainly is plural in form, because its use dates from the earliest Israelite days, before monotheism, when Israelites were henotheistic (they believed that YHVH was the supreme god who had made other gods), and thus a plural term was called for. Once Israelite Judaism became monotheistic, the plural term was kept because it was in common usage, but its meaning shifted from referring to many gods to, instead, referring to God's infinite faces and aspects, and God's many strengths and powers. But we have not believed that God actually is in any way plural for over twenty-five hundred years.

As for Isaiah, it says there: kadosh kadosh kadosh YHVH Tzeva'ot melo kol ha'aretz kevodo. Which is, "Holy, holy, holy! YHVH of the Legions! His glory fills all the earth!" There is no suggestion of God's multiplicity in this: the angels repeat kadosh to reinforce the concept. YHVH Tzeva'ot (YHVH of the Legions) is a name for God, probably either referring to God as master of many legions of angels, or referring to God as creator of the legions of stars in the sky. And the rest is fairly self-evident, and is phrased decisively in the singular. Or, if you prefer, think of the three repetitions of kadosh as signifying different aspects of holiness, as Onkelos paraphrases into Aramaic: kadish bishmei meroma ila'a bet shechintei, kadish al ara ovad gevurtei, kadish l'alam u'l'almei almaya... "Holy in the highest heavens above, His royal dwelling; holy upon the earth, His work of wonder; holy for all time, forever and ever...." But the poetic repetition in Isaiah would never have been meant to signify plurality, much less trinity, a concept entirely foreign to Judaism, and entirely unthought-of in Biblical times.

Divine plurality is sometimes something of which one can see echoes in the ancientest phrases in the Torah, from the time before true Israelite Judaism arose; but those echoes were long ago reshaped and reimagined and reinterpreted into something very, very different. And sometimes in the deepest Kabbalistic texts, we can see things that, to the untutored eye, might appear to present dualistic or plural images of the divine, but even they, once properly understood, only present mystical understandings of different faces or aspects of the One God, and not any kind of true differentiation or multiplication of deity.

a. The true ancient Aramaic name of G-d is “Alahayim,” meaning; Aa means; “First,” La or Le means “big or greatest.” “ha” means; “the.” and “yim” means; “all living;” the heavens, earth, waters, plants, and animals.
 
Alahayim means; “The First, and The Greatest of “all living;” the heavens, earth, waters, plants and animals. See page on the name of G-d.
 
“Alahayim,” is similar to Abra”ham,” meaning; father of the “nations.” Abram is singular, ham (nations) is plural. In the same way Aala (First and
Greatest) is singular, Yim (all living) is plural. One G-d to “all living.”
 
c. “Elohim” used by the Pharisee Rabbis, is the Canaanite corruption of the ancient Aramaic name of G-d.

Can you please present some supporting citations for these grammatical contentions? Because I have never seen anything like them.

In every Aramaic text I encountered during my graduate research and rabbinical studies, the Aramaic form of this name of God is Elahah. If it were pluralized, which is seldom done in extant Jewish Aramaic literature, the plural form would be Elahin, or more irregularly, Elahaya. This word is, in fact, directly cognate to the Hebrew El or Elohim, both deriving from the Assyrian ilu, meaning "mighty," "leader," or "a god."

The word that you have given, "Alahayim" is not to be found in any of the three major Aramaic-English dictionaries of Babylonian or Palestinian Jewish Aramaic, nor in any of the four major Aramaic-Hebrew dictionaries. It does not appear to be in a correct grammatical form for either the Jewish dialects of Syraic or Sassanian, and it is not Mandaic.

If it were a word, presuming it were spelled as one would reasonably expect, alef-lamed-chet-yod-yod-nun (the final mem ending that you are giving it is a Hebrism, not typical in Aramaic usage), or possibly alef-lamed-alef-chet-yod-yod-nun, it would be a compounding of Elah+Chayin, meaning "Living God." The compounding of morphemes that you have broken down are not translatable as you have given them. "First" in Aramaic would be rishon, or in certain cases perhaps reisha, or chada. There is no word "Aa" in Aramaic. La (there is no Aramaic word le) in Aramaic means "no," or in certain rare cases, it can mean "a tiny mote," or "a particle." "Great" or "greatest" would be g'dol or perhaps rama. There is no word yim or yin. The closest words are yom or yein, meaning, respectively, "day" and "wine." "Living things" would be either chayin or chayata.

The name Avraham means "chieftain of many," and is a compounding of the ancient Hebrew words aver ("chieftain") and ham, which is a rare poetic short form of the word hamon, meaning "a multitude." It is a play on the figure's original name, Avram, which is av ("father") + ram ("great"), meaning Great Father.

Elohim, which is actually not one of the names of God most favored by the Rabbis of the Talmud (or their predecessors, the Perushim, or "Pharisees"), is not a Canaanite corruption of Aramaic. Canaanite predates Aramaic, for one thing. More or less all of the Canaanite languages, except for ancient Hebraic, were either extinct or dying by the turn of the first millennium BCE, which is just about when Aramaic was becoming a distinct language.
 
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