Judaism Dir - Wondering about Moshiach

[dybmh]

Now, was there something about Pinchas (or Ruth) that you'd like to share?

Not based on your replies, no.

And you can always return here when you want to actually discuss something related to Judaism. Seems like a win/win to me.

No thank you, It seems like you are interested in arguing a belittling. I think life's too short to argue and belittle each other.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Not based on your replies, no.

OK.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

There are a few things that you may have to take into codieration.

1. There is a difference between a focus on the particular person who is a Davidic King who will bring about (ימות משיח) and a focus on what causes Am Yisrael and the world to enter (ימות משיח).
2. The Rambam in his commentary of the Mishnah mentions that a sign that "potentially" Am Yisrael are on the right track is if there a Sanhedrin in the land of Israel.
3. In Iggeroth Teiman the Rambam also makes it clear that a Davidic king who will be mashiahh will be an event that takes places here in the land of Israel.
4. Further, in Iggeroth Teiman the Rambam states that the person who will be mashiahh won't intially know that Hashem has assigned him to be that and he won't be intially known by others to be potentially a mashiahh. He seems to draw upon a similar parallel to how Hashem approached Mosheh Rabbeinu.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Are those who seek Moshiach, the individual, barking up the wrong tree?

My Chabad friend thinks that the better candidates will be regal like King David, and I think that the better candidates will be snakes in the grass like Moav.

What do you think?

Greetings. Can you explain in more detail what your friend means? Which people would he consider to be those "seeking mashiah and barking up the wrong tree?"

 

[dybmh]

Greetings. Can you explain in more detail what your friend means? Which people would he consider to be those "seeking mashiah and barking up the wrong tree?"

Yes, I'm working on a full detailed explanation via private message.

@Jayhawker Soule , @RabbiO , @LAGoff , there is room to invite each of you ( I think ) into this group conversation.

I hope each of you ( @Jayhawker Soule , @RabbiO , @LAGoff ) believe me when I say, this was not intended as a joke. LaGoff, I did give u the commentary references... Jay, I think you mistake/misunderstand my enjoyment of the discussion and the mystery. I also assure you this is a Jewish topic and all my replies/argumentation/supporting evidence comes strictly from Jewish sources. ( And all that completely ignores that I am 100% Jewish from a large Jewish family. )

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I also assure you ... all my replies/argumentation/supporting evidence comes strictly from Jewish sources.

FWIW, I have zero respect for such a filter.

 

[dybmh]

FWIW, I have zero respect for such a filter.

Right. I doubt we have much common ground.

But at least my sources will be undeniably Jewish. It's a start to a hopefully cordial conversation .

But if you don't particularly like talking about Moshiach, then by all means don't participate. Virtually anything I bring to the table comes from sources you don't respect anyway.

None the less, I appreciate your critical opinion and sarcastic jabs. I've learned to like them. If you want to join Ever and I in a private conversation, you have my 100% permission to be critical and sarcastic and blunt as you deem appropriate.

If I say something stupid, feel free to call me on it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

But if you don't particularly like talking about Moshiach, then by all means don't participate. Virtually anything I bring to the table comes from sources you don't respect anyway.

That is an entirely false and despicable assertion. You might wish to consider this Jewish source.

 

[dybmh]

That is an entirely false and despicable assertion.

Jay, respectfully, what is false and despicable about what I said?

Please. Help me understand how I offended you?

Perhaps this Jewish Source is helpful to resolve this conflict ( if there is one ) about LaShon Hara:

Kitzur Shulhan Aruch 29:20

A person should be careful not to do anything which might cause [people] to suspect that he committed a sin, (even though he is not [actually] committing a sin), as we find63 that the kohein who removed the coins from the chamber64 did not enter [the chamber] in a garment that was fashioned in a way that something could be hidden in it, for a person must answer for his actions to his fellow man as he must answer to the Almighty, blessed is He, as it is said: "You will be innocent before God and Israel"65 And it is also said: "And find favor and good understanding in the eyes of God and man."

In other words: If I'm speaking wrongly, then go a head and rebuke me; but the insinuation without explanation is not Kosher either.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Jay, respectfully, what is false and despicable about what I said?

Please. Help me understand how I offended you?

On what basis do you claim that I do not respect jewish sources?

 

[dybmh]

On what basis do you claim that I do not respect jewish sources?

The last time I brought Rashi as support for a claim I had made, you undermined it, saying "Rashi was a wine-maker "

At the beginning of the thread I brought 3 potential sources: Zohar, Rambam, Rashi, and IbnEzra.

Zohar and Rambam use Rashi to make their points. Therefore if you do not respect Rashi's opinion, then that means Zohar and Rambam, are also not respected. That leaves maybe IbnEzra as a possible source that I might bright that you would respect. 1 out of 4 is not enough to make a case.

I said:

Virtually anything I bring to the table comes from sources you don't respect anyway.

When I said virtually, I suppose technically it would have been more accurate to say: 1 out of 4 of the sources I bring will not be respected. That was based on your previous comments in another thread about Goshen.

Now, if you don't mind, would you please explain why you don't trust my filter on what is and isn't a Jewish source as state below? Otherwise it is Lashon Hara and not a rebuke, halachically. See below:

Jay, why don't you trust/respect that I can discern between a Jewish source and a non-Jewish source?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The last time I brought Rashi as support for a claim I had made, you undermined it, saying "Rashi was a wine-maker "

Feel free to reference the post.

Now, if you don't mind, would you please explain why you don't trust my filter on what is and isn't a Jewish source as state below? Otherwise it is Lashon Hara and not a rebuke, halachically. See below:

View attachment 41441

Jay, why don't you trust/respect that I can discern between a Jewish source and a non-Jewish source?

Forgive my asking: Is English your primary language? I ask only because my comment had absolutely nothing to do with your ability to "discern between a Jewish source and a non-Jewish source."

In any event, these exchanges are clearly unproductive. I'm pretty much done with them. Take care of yourself.

 

[dybmh]

In any event, these exchanges are clearly unproductive. I'm pretty much done with them. Take care of yourself.

I would consider it a favor if you would please help me understand how to communicate better with you.

Please,

What did you mean by the comment in the red box below?

Clearly I misunderstood you. But I still don't understand what this ^^ means. I would very much appreciate your help understanding this.

I'm sorry for making things difficult, I think your explanation to this ^^ will be very helpful for now and in the future.

Sincerely,

 

[dybmh]

OK, How 'bout this, here's a simple summary of my position and how it differs from my Chabad friend.

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My Chabad friend is looking for Moshiach the individual, he is not looking for candidates.

That doesn't make sense to me. I told him he needed to use process of elimination and look for candidates first. He needs to develop a pool of likely candidates.

To me, it's obvious. Looking for Moshiach the individual is not an efficient approach, it's like looking for a needle in a haystack. But beyond that, I think that the Moshiach candidates have a vital role in the Moshiach narrative.

That's the nuts a bolts of it:

My position is: We ( Jews who are interested in finding/bringing Moshaich ) should be looking for candidates and then utilizing the talents of this pool of candidates to help bring the redemption, which will include having a King Moshiach. But looking for King Moshiach requires first and foremost developing a list of candidates.

His position is: { Paraphrased } Sounds interesting, but everything is on hold till Covid is over.

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Does this help clarify my intentions of starting this thread?

If so, here's how and why I think this discussion can be "productive".

I'm hoping to get some peer review of what I am seeing as clues to whom would be good candidates for Moshiach.

I doubt that I am the only one in history to have these ideas about who would be good candidates, perhaps there are support for some of my ideas, theories in Talmud? IDK. It's an source of which I am very ignorant.

Conversely, it could be that some of these clues I'm finding are completely bogus, dead-ends, etc... These ideas I have may be refuted in Talmud, but I have no idea about that, because as I said, I don't know Talmud.

This is why having skeptics in this thread is of great value to me. If I make a leap of faith that is not logically coherent, I want to know that. Or, if I take something out of context or have mistranslated something, I want to know that. That is why I think this discussion can be productive.

If there are those who wish to proceed with this thread as described above, please like this post.

@Ehav4Ever , if you wish to continue the convo privately, please send me a PM.

Otherwise, I'll just leave this thread as is unless there are other questions or comments directed to me.

 

[dybmh]

One more note:

I did not go to the Chabad Rabbi to talk about Moshiach, he came to me. And this happens regularly with this specific Chabad friend. He gave me a riddle to solve, I solved it for him, and that lead us ( as usual ) to discussions of Moshiach.

It's classic Chabad ( steering the conversation towards Moshaich ), for those who aren't familiar.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Question, what sources were you and the other person using about "us" choosing mashaiah as an individual or as candidates?

 

[dybmh]

Question, what sources were you and the other person using about "us" choosing mashaiah as an individual or as candidates?

Tanach.
Hilchot Melachim.
Zohar.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Tanach.
Hilchot Melachim.
Zohar.

Where in exactly Hilchoth Melakhim does it say we search out candidates - not specifically a regular king but the one Davidic kind being described in chapters 11 and 12? When you say "us" are talking about this:

א,א שלוש מצוות נצטוו ישראל בשעת כניסתן לארץ--למנות להם מלך שנאמר "שום תשים עליך מלך" (דברים יז,טו)​

or this:

א,ד [ג] אין מעמידין מלך תחילה, אלא על פי בית דין של שבעים זקנים ועל פי נביא--כיהושוע שמינהו משה רבנו ובית דינו, וכשאול ודויד שמינה אותם שמואל הרמתי ובית דינו​

 

[dybmh]

Where in exactly Hilchoth Melakhim does it say we search out candidates - not specifically a regular king but the one Davidic kind being described in chapters 11 and 12? When you say "us" are talking about this:

א,א שלוש מצוות נצטוו ישראל בשעת כניסתן לארץ--למנות להם מלך שנאמר "שום תשים עליך מלך" (דברים יז,טו)​

or this:

א,ד [ג] אין מעמידין מלך תחילה, אלא על פי בית דין של שבעים זקנים ועל פי נביא--כיהושוע שמינהו משה רבנו ובית דינו, וכשאול ודויד שמינה אותם שמואל הרמתי ובית דינו​

First of all, I'm reading it in english. And if I recall the criteria for the candidates are in Chapter 11 or 12.

Here's a sefaria link to chapter 11: ( link )

 

[Ehav4Ever]

First of all, I'm reading it in english. And if I recall the criteria for the candidates are in Chapter 11 or 12.

Here's a sefaria link to chapter 11: ( link )

The criteria for someone being a King of Am Yisrael is given in the first chapter. I.e. in order for someone to even be a mashiahh they have to meet the criteria for being a King. (As the Rambam explains - Sanhedrin and a Navi are required for this.)

Chapter 11 describes how one knows that someone is potentially mashiahh and how one knows that it is definate. Chapter deals with what Yemoth Mashiahh will be like, but not extreme detail. Those chapters don't deal with us searching for candidates.