Judaism Dir - Wondering about Moshiach

[dybmh]

The criteria for someone being a King of Am Yisrael is given in the first chapter. I.e. in order for someone to even be a mashiahh they have to meet the criteria for being a King. (As the Rambam explains - Sanhedrin and a Navi are required for this.)

Chapter 11 describes how one knows that someone is potentially mashiahh and how one knows that it is definate. Chapter deals with what Yemoth Mashiahh will be like, but not extreme detail. Those chapters don't deal with us searching for candidates.

Right, a King and an In-gatherer.

The Chabad approach is looking for a King, that's rare. Needle in a haystack.

My approach is looking for an in-gather, and that's actually pretty common. According to Tanach. The past two or maybe three times they are mentioned in BaMidbar, LMatay Dan, is described as in-gathers, and that they were a voluminous population that interacted and perhaps intermarried with all the other tribes.

Because of that, one could use the criteria for L'Matay Dan to narrow their search. First find in-gatherers, then find the King among them. That's my claim ( in blue ), summarized in 1 sentence.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Right, a King and an In-gatherer.

The Chabad approach is looking for a King, that's rare. Needle in a haystack.

My approach is looking for an in-gather, and that's actually pretty common. According to Tanach. The past two or maybe three times they are mentioned in BaMidbar, LMatay Dan, is described as in-gathers, and that they were a voluminous population that interacted and perhaps intermarried with all the other tribes.

Because of that, one could use the criteria for L'Matay Dan to narrow their search. First find in-gatherers, then find the King among them. That's my claim ( in blue ), summarized in 1 sentence.

Okay. I understand better the two approaches.

I still see a problem with both. I don't see anything in Tanakh, Rambam, or Zohar that states that by searching for someone in either concept that we will find said person. For example, the criteria given by the Rambam, before it is confirmed that he is mashiahh by accomplishing all the requirements, is more than just an in-gatherer.

1. Needs to be approved by both a Sanhedrin and a Navi (Mishnah Torah - Hilchoth Melachim 1:3)
2. Must have Yirath Shamayim (Mishnah Torah - Hilchoth Melachim 1:7)
3. Needs a proven geneology to David HaMelekh (Mishnah Torah - Hilchoth Melachim 1:7)
4. Needs a proven genogology to Shlomo HaMelekh (Iggereth Teiman section 3 - Sefer HaMitzvoth, Commentary on the Mishnah)
5. Must be very knowledgable in Torah and does the mitzvoth like David HaMelekh, per Torah shebaal Pe, and convinces Am Yisrael to do also do so. (Mishnah Torah - Hilchoth Melachim 11:4)
6. Must be in Eretz Yisrael (Iggereth Teiman section 4)
7. Until Hashem reveals to him [that he is mashiah] he won't be mashiahh, won't know he is mashiah, and neither will anyone else. (Iggereth Teiman section 4)
   
8. The signs and wonders he does will only be based on need, and not to prove he is mashiah (Iggereth Teiman section 4)

So, based on Rambam alone it appears that looking for someone won't do much in the way of determing the reality. Further, as Rav Saadya Gaon points out Am Yisrael making shuva is the driving force for the above:

נבחר באמונות ובדעות
(האמונה והדעות)
לרבנו סעדיה בן יוסף פיומי זצ"ל
מאמר שמיני - פרק ה [קץ ללא תשובה]
והואיל וכבר פירשתי את הקיצים הללו וביארתים, אומר עתה, כבר ידענו שאם תשובתנו לא תהיה שלמה, נשאר עד שישלם הקץ, וכאשר ישלם הקץ ולא נשוב, אפשרי שתהיה הישועה ואנחנו חוטאים. וכיון שארך הזמן ולא שבנו, יחזירנו בלי תשובה, ויהיה זה בהופעת הגואל, אלא שמסורת הנביאים קיבלה שיבואו עלינו צרות ומצוקות, שעל ידם נבחר לשוב, ונזכה לישועה, והוא מאמר קדמונינו: [רמו] אם ישראל עושין תשובה נגאלין, ואם לאו הקב"ה מעמיד להן מלך שקשין גזרותיו מהמן והן עושין תשובה
ונגאלין. [סנהדרין צז ב​

 

[dybmh]

נבחר באמונות ובדעות
(האמונה והדעות)
לרבנו סעדיה בן יוסף פיומי זצ"ל
מאמר שמיני - פרק ה [קץ ללא תשובה]
והואיל וכבר פירשתי את הקיצים הללו וביארתים, אומר עתה, כבר ידענו שאם תשובתנו לא תהיה שלמה, נשאר עד שישלם הקץ, וכאשר ישלם הקץ ולא נשוב, אפשרי שתהיה הישועה ואנחנו חוטאים. וכיון שארך הזמן ולא שבנו, יחזירנו בלי תשובה, ויהיה זה בהופעת הגואל, אלא שמסורת הנביאים קיבלה שיבואו עלינו צרות ומצוקות, שעל ידם נבחר לשוב, ונזכה לישועה, והוא מאמר קדמונינו: [רמו] אם ישראל עושין תשובה נגאלין, ואם לאו הקב"ה מעמיד להן מלך שקשין גזרותיו מהמן והן עושין תשובה
ונגאלין. [סנהדרין צז ב​

Please translate into english? It's an unwritten rule that en english translation should be given when a foreign language is used. If it's not appropriate for mixed company, please send me a PM ( or forgive me for taking a long time to reply since my Hebrew language skills are so limited)

 

[dybmh]

before it is confirmed that he is mashiahh by accomplishing all the requirements, is more than just an in-gatherer.

But still finding an ingather is much easier? And then once they the ingatherers have figured out ( or been taught to ) out to internally ingather, they could facilitate the redemption even if they are not the King Moshiach themselves.

My issue is this: Chabad discourage and distance themselves from people resembling in-gatherers. It seems counter-productive.

 

[dybmh]

In any event, these exchanges are clearly unproductive.

How would you describe a productive exchange?

How do we ( you and I figure out how to communicate better )?

I value your POV, Jay. I've had a significant change of heart since we first met.

Sincerely,

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Please translate into english? It's an unwritten rule that en english translation should be given when a foreign language is used. If it's not appropriate for mixed company, please send me a PM ( or forgive me for taking a long time to reply since my Hebrew language skills are so limited)

Sorry. I am used to posting things in Hebrew and summerizing it, just so that the source is more clear than the translation.

The short version of what he wrote I noted prior to the quote: "Further, as Rav Saadya Gaon points out Am Yisrael making shuva is the driving force for the above:"

In more detail he states that if we choose not to do shuva then I.e. no geula prior to the appointed time without complete shuva. He continues that if the appointed time comes and we haven't made shuva then it is "possible" that the geula can happen while we are not in the right state. Yet, he states that if we won't do shuva we will have a king placed upon us that makes things very difficult until we make shuva.

Thus, you won't find a potential for a Davidic King until Am Yisrael make shuva in Israel.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But still finding an ingather is much easier? And then once they the ingatherers have figured out ( or been taught to ) out to internally ingather, they could facilitate the redemption even if they are not the King Moshiach themselves.

My issue is this: Chabad discourage and distance themselves from people resembling in-gatherers. It seems counter-productive.

Rambam seems clear in the position that you won't find him by looking for him. Even if you were to say that this person is doing all the above listed requirements you can only say at that time he is a potential. When he fully accomplishes it all and the other requirements then you can say he is mashiah. Before any of that and w/o Am Yisrael making shuva you won't find someone until Hashem makes it clear in the process that has been shown above.

Again, it doesn't matter if one group has their own philosophy about this, it all comes from Hashem and not from us. Similar to the Sefer HaYashar states that about 40 years prior to the yetziat mitzrayim that a group of the tribe of Ephrayim and some other tribes thought it was time to leave Egypt based ona miscalcuation and they left. They got into a war with the Kanaanites and lost. The Midrash explains that the reason that Hashem took Am Yisrael, during the leaving of Egypt, through a longer route was so that they would not see the results of the war from when a portion of the tribe of Ephrayim left earlier than the appointed time.

Also, as a side note, there are stories from the Yemenite Jewish community that some of those arriving in Isreal from Yemen thought perhaps Ben Gurion was maybe mashiah. We know that this turned out to not be true.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But still finding an ingather is much easier? And then once they the ingatherers have figured out ( or been taught to ) out to internally ingather, they could facilitate the redemption even if they are not the King Moshiach themselves.

My issue is this: Chabad discourage and distance themselves from people resembling in-gatherers. It seems counter-productive.

Also, don't forget that the Rambam stated in his commentary of the Mishnah that a sign of the poential for there being a Davidic King / mashiah is the existance of a Sanhedrin.

 

[dybmh]

Further, as Rav Saadya Gaon points out Am Yisrael making shuva is the driving force for the above:"

In more detail he states that if we choose not to do shuva then I.e. no geula prior to the appointed time without complete shuva. He continues that if the appointed time comes and we haven't made shuva then it is "possible" that the geula can happen while we are not in the right state. Yet, he states that if we won't do shuva we will have a king placed upon us that makes things very difficult until we make shuva.

Thus, you won't find a potential for a Davidic King until Am Yisrael make shuva in Israel.

And that, my friend is the function of the ingather-ers.

Why can't Am Yisrael make shuva?

Because of the Yetzer Hara. The ingather-ers in a manner of speaking, ibbur the yetzer hara from Am Yosroel >>> Am Yisroel does shuva... bippity-boppity-boo... it's Moshiach time...

The in gatherers do their job, and then the King Moshiach will be revealed from one of those In-Gatherers.

It fits doesn't it? Nothing that you have said refutes what I'm saying about inGatherers.

1) King Moshaich will be an in-Gatherer
2) In-Gatherers can facilitate the Shuva of Am Yisroel.

Therefore it makes more sense to look for inGatherers, and not a King.

 

[dybmh]

Rambam seems clear in the position that you won't find him by looking for him.

Right, finding the King by looking for in-gathers is "not looking for him"

Even if you were to say that this person is doing all the above listed requirements you can only say at that time he is a potential. When he fully accomplishes it all and the other requirements then you can say he is mashiah. Before any of that and w/o Am Yisrael making shuva you won't find someone until Hashem makes it clear in the process that has been shown above.

You're still speaking about King Moshaich, I am talking about the in-Gatherers. We need to find the in-gathers first, use them to put the Yetzer Hara in its place or annihilate it ( a decision made on a case by case basis ). Then without the Yetzer Hara's interference , Am Yisroel *will* do shuva. The Yetzer Hara is the obstacle. A great big army of in-gatherers could do it. If the group is big enough and distributed around the world, the ingatherers could set the table for King Moshaich.

But... that all depends on whether or not we ( those who beleive in Moshiach ) are looking for the needle in the haystack, or are we setting the table for Moshiach instead. I propose we set the table, and the best way to do that is to eliminate or subjegate the yetzer hara with the help of an army of in-gatherers.

Again, it doesn't matter if one group has their own philosophy about this, it all comes from Hashem and not from us. Similar to the Sefer HaYashar states that about 40 years prior to the yetziat mitzrayim that a group of the tribe of Ephrayim and some other tribes thought it was time to leave Egypt based ona miscalcuation and they left. They got into a war with the Kanaanites and lost. The Midrash explains that the reason that Hashem took Am Yisrael, during the leaving of Egypt, through a longer route was so that they would not see the results of the war from when a portion of the tribe of Ephrayim left earlier than the appointed time.

From what I can tell.... time is not even part of the equation. Redemption will happen when it happens.

Also, as a side note, there are stories from the Yemenite Jewish community that some of those arriving in Isreal from Yemen thought perhaps Ben Gurion was maybe mashiah. We know that this turned out to not be true.

Yet another good reason to stop looking for Moshiach, and start looking for in gatherers. We need to find this hidden army and wage a war against the Yetzer Hara on its own turf, where it lives: in the deepest recesses of the Jewish heart.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

And that, my friend is the function of the ingather-ers.

Why can't Am Yisrael make shuva?

Because of the Yetzer Hara. The ingather-ers in a manner of speaking, ibbur the yetzer hara from Am Yosroel >>> Am Yisroel does shuva... bippity-boppity-boo... it's Moshiach time...

The in gatherers do their job, and then the King Moshiach will be revealed from one of those In-Gatherers.

It fits doesn't it? Nothing that you have said refutes what I'm saying about inGatherers.

1) King Moshaich will be an in-Gatherer
2) In-Gatherers can facilitate the Shuva of Am Yisroel.

Therefore it makes more sense to look for inGatherers, and not a King.

Again, you won't have to search for anyone if they are clearly:

1. Proven to be from Beit David/Shlomo
2. Is a Navi
3. Living in Eretz Yisrael
4. Is approved to be king by a Sanhedrin and Navi
5. Proven to be teaching and holding by Torah and halakha

Since, Am Yisrael in Eretz Yisrael are currently not making national shuva and there are more than 20 or so rabbis here who do qiruv work I think that speaks to the fact that looking around for something that w/o have the baselines won't get anywhere.

 

[dybmh]

Again, you won't have to search for anyone if they are clearly:

1. Proven to be from Beit David/Shlomo
2. Is a Navi
3. Living in Eretz Yisrael
4. Is approved to be king by a Sanhedrin and Navi
5. Proven to be teaching and holding by Torah and halakha

Since, Am Yisrael in Eretz Yisrael are currently not making national shuva and there are more than 20 or so rabbis here who do qiruv work I think that speaks to the fact that looking around for something that w/o have the baselines won't get anywhere.

Respectfully, you are missing my point.

Can we start here?

Do we both agree that Am Yisroel must do shuva first? There is plenty of Tanach support for this idea.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

You're still speaking about King Moshaich, I am talking about the in-Gatherers. We need to find the in-gathers first, use them to put the Yetzer Hara in its place or annihilate it ( a decision made on a case by case basis ). Then without the Yetzer Hara's interference , Am Yisroel *will* do shuva. The Yetzer Hara is the obstacle. A great big army of in-gatherers could do it. If the group is big enough and distributed around the world, the ingatherers could set the table for King Moshaich.

Here in Israel we already know those individuals are. That is not something that is hidden here on the ground. As mentioned previously a lof of Israelis here can name about 20 or more rabbis who have been involved in that kind of work for decades. The issue is that alone that doesn't bring about anything.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Respectfully, you are missing my point.

Can we start here?

Do we both agree that Am Yisroel must do shuva first? There is plenty of Tanach support for this idea.

We both agree on that, but look at my last two posts. Here in Israel we already know whose those people are. Most of them have been doing the work your are talking about for decades.

 

[dybmh]

Here in Israel we already know those individuals are. That is not something that is hidden here on the ground. As mentioned previously a lof of Israelis here can name about 20 or more rabbis who have been involved in that kind of work for decades. The issue is that alone that doesn't bring about anything.

That's external? Does it address the Yetzer Hara on a global scope?

Are you with me?


This is where the discussion becomes esoteric and might be best to continue via Private Message.

 

[dybmh]

We both agree on that, but look at my last two posts. Here in Israel we already know whose those people are. Most of them have been doing the work your are talking about for decades.

OK, then why doesn't Chabad know about this?

I'm still not sure we're talking apples to apples.

I'm talking about "in-Gatherers". You're talking about people making Aliyah?

It *all* depends on how you are defining "work". I am talking about spiritual, internal, work.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

That's external? Does it address the Yetzer Hara on a global scope?

Are you with me?


This is where the discussion becomes esoteric and might be best to continue via Private Message.

According to the Rambam it does. I.e. it starts here in Israel and when things happen here it affects the world by default.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

OK, then why doesn't Chabad know about this?

I'm still not sure we're talking apples to apples.

I'm talking about "in-Gatherers". You're talking about people making Aliyah?

It *all* depends on how you are defining "work". I am talking about spiritual, internal, work.

Because Chabad is only one organization that has its own way of looking at things. It also depends on what type of Chabad person you are talking to.

I am not talking about Aliyah. I am also talking about ingatherers, exactly as you defined it. There are a number of rabbis here in Israel who have been exactly what you described for several decades. (spiritual, internal, work) Exactly what you described earlier.

 

[dybmh]

Because Chabad is only one organization that has its own way of looking at things. It also depends on what type of Chabad person you are talking to.

I am not talking about Aliyah. I am also talking about ingatherers, exactly as you defined it. There are a number of rabbis here in Israel who have been exactly what you described for several decades. (spiritual, internal, work) Exactly what you described earlier.

B"H

That's what I was looking for, some form of confirmation that what I'm seeing in Tanach, Commentary, Midrash is not a figment of my imagination.

Can you perhaps offer a few names of Rabbis who are also advocating / seeking out inGatherers?

 

[dybmh]

The issue is that alone that doesn't bring about anything.

OK. well, it seems to me that group of very very talented inGatherers could sweep the globe, ingathering the Yetzer Hara in each and every community of Jews Globally. And that... would be the beginning of the trigger redemption.

This supports the anti-zionist position. It puts it in perspective.

InGatherers in The Holy Land may not be able to inGather the Yetzer Hara here in the hearts of American Jews. Too distant. Arguably counter-productive.

It would be better, imo, to have the inGathers spread out, annihilate or enslave the Yetzer Hara globally... then and only then, ingather physically in the Holy Land.

I'm not saying that the inGatherers who are in the Holy Land should leave. What I'm saying is that those who are not in Israel are perhaps not in Israel for a good reason.

Not to mention... according to Rashi and IbnEzra virtually every Jewish person has at least a little inGatherer in their lineage. Were you able to see that in the commentary from Parsha Pinchas? It's linked to the verses of the census of the Tribe of Dan? If so, then that means we ( Jews ) have a ready made army of inGatherers spanning the four corners of the world. They just need to be activated. ( so to speak ).