Judaism vs Christianity: Second Coming of Messiah

[Brian2]

No, it is something you think is a prophecy. Strangely, Jews (the ones who have had these texts for a while now) don't think resurrection is part of the deal at all. In Psalm 89, for example, the text speaks of the loss of the kingship from the Davidic line after the days of Tzikiyahu. It is that entire dynasty which will be restored in messianic times. This is not bout resurrection of a specific person. But somehow, people outside of the tradition in which that text was introduced know better.

It's just that we see the scriptures from a different angle because we believe that Jesus is the Messiah and so we see prophecies there which speak of Him.
As I was saying to Rival, God said that He going to make the Jews blind and deaf. This is seen in a number of scriptures (Isa 6:9,10, Jer 5:21, Isa 43:8, Ezek 12:2) and is reflected in the gospel when Jesus spoke in parables so that people would not understand.
It is just a judgement of the Lord I guess.
But at the end the Jews will see and understand, when they see that the Messiah was Jesus. (Zech 12:10)

 

[Brian2]

Merely for the benefit of this conversation, let's ignore the whole context of Isaiah and his terminology and say that supposedly, yes, ch. 53 is messianic. Where is this figure dying? Where is he resurrecting? I'm not seeing it.

He suffered and was killed and buried as a sin offering and to bear our sins but He lived to see His children.

But that is not the only place in the Hebrew scriptures where the resurrection of the Messiah is shown.
I admit that many of these scriptures that Christians use were probably not understandable before Jesus actually came. It is believing in Him that can open eyes to their meaning.
Sometimes it is plain to me that a particular scripture is Messianic because it speaks of the one who will inherit the nations, be appointed God's firstborn, rule forever on the throne of David etc, but Jews don't seem to acknowledge a further meaning to the prophecies than the meanings that have been passed down.
Actually many Jews over the years have seen some of the Messianic scriptures that Christians use as Messianic,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but those ideas have not taken off in Judaism. eg Rabbis have seen Isa 53 as Messianic in the past.

 

[rosends]

It's just that we see the scriptures from a different angle because we believe that Jesus is the Messiah and so we see prophecies there which speak of Him.
As I was saying to Rival, God said that He going to make the Jews blind and deaf. This is seen in a number of scriptures (Isa 6:9,10, Jer 5:21, Isa 43:8, Ezek 12:2) and is reflected in the gospel when Jesus spoke in parables so that people would not understand.
It is just a judgement of the Lord I guess.
But at the end the Jews will see and understand, when they see that the Messiah was Jesus. (Zech 12:10)

And God told the Jews that others would tell the Jews they are wrong and would have dominion over Jews, but only temporarily, and when the future messiah comes, the others will all realize how wrong they are and come asking to join the Jewish people. See you then!

 

[rational experiences]

If you summarise the story.

Civilization builds technology. Pyramid temples. Humans equal life family life changed into slavery for civilization. To have it built and operational.

Then technology attacks the life of the civilization builders.....
Mayan Indians.
India Indians
Egyptians.

Life is irradiated mutated. Life health of humans gone. Life surviving not saved. To know saving means you were once healthier.

As a human once owning a higher healthy life what would you claim about the situation?

It was mans chosen evil.
Humans were hurt.
The technology was destroyed.
Humans needed to teach for memory as heavy metal brain conditions removes human memory. So humans retold the story verbally as life changed and healed.

No science.

In a no science practice what would planet earths body and heavens become?

Evolved. Changed. And it would be known. Advised and expected.

Why should be the question.

Reason.... as science was unnatural and it caused an unnatural attack by the humans who chose to cause it.

The only reason why.

So natural evolution what the heavens was before colder would be the theme to teach why.

To be saved is to oppose what kept life safe. Being ICE and water gas cooling.

Basic advice

 

[Brian2]

And God told the Jews that others would tell the Jews they are wrong and would have dominion over Jews, but only temporarily, and when the future messiah comes, the others will all realize how wrong they are and come asking to join the Jewish people. See you then!

Isa 2:2 In the last days the mountain of the house of the LORD will be established as the chief of the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and all nations will stream to it. 3 And many peoples will come and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us His ways so that we may walk in His paths.” For the law will go forth from Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 Then He will judge between the nations and arbitrate for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will no longer take up the sword against nation, nor train anymore for war.…

Of course Christians see this in a different way. The word of the Lord went from Zion to the world when the gospel and the New Covenant was rejected by most Jews and Jesus became a light and salvation for the Gentiles as well as the Jews. (Isa 49:6). We have come to the God of Jacob and the mountain of the house of the Lord has been established as the chief of the mountains.

 

[moorea944]

Isa 2:2 In the last days the mountain of the house of the LORD will be established as the chief of the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and all nations will stream to it. 3 And many peoples will come and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us His ways so that we may walk in His paths.” For the law will go forth from Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 Then He will judge between the nations and arbitrate for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will no longer take up the sword against nation, nor train anymore for war.…

Of course Christians see this in a different way. The word of the Lord went from Zion to the world when the gospel and the New Covenant was rejected by most Jews and Jesus became a light and salvation for the Gentiles as well as the Jews. (Isa 49:6). We have come to the God of Jacob and the mountain of the house of the Lord has been established as the chief of the mountains.

Isaiah 2 is a future prophecy, it hasnt happened yet. But that will when Christ returns.

 

[rational experiences]

If men on earth as seeing theists is bible status.... it is stated by comments made and assessed.

By thinking and looking seeing as a living consciousness to own topics.

Then men said O gods in the cosmos are the creators. How God created as a God.

The gods the topic in cosmic causes.

Some O gods are destroyed and no longer own form.

Others gods were rebelling as suns.

O earth it's God.

Gods face O the stone first existed on the face of the great deep. The void as earth cooled into stone by voiding heat.

It's gas water clear spirit heavens sat on the face of the deep

God the sun created gods heavenly light.

Gods in their creation creating. The God topic.

The subject.

Man's confession. He set earths gas even ING sky alight for six days...by trying to copy God as a thesis.

In cloud images he began to see the emerging images of sacrificed life formed.

As gods dust nuclear reactions the sun god owned the reason for image transmitting by recording.

Is man's teaching God taught why a dust reaction into a nuclear conversion caused transmitted images to appear in the clouds.

Was a human scientific relativity teaching advice.

As you have to See images to discuss an image. You have to see clouds to recognise images in the clouds.

You have to know dusts existed by seeing dusts and you had to realise what a nuclear reaction was.

To see is not of darkness. You need light to see the human conscious teachings.

A book was written so you would read to learn.

 

[rosends]

Isa 2:2 In the last days the mountain of the house of the LORD will be established as the chief of the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and all nations will stream to it. 3 And many peoples will come and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us His ways so that we may walk in His paths.” For the law will go forth from Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 Then He will judge between the nations and arbitrate for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will no longer take up the sword against nation, nor train anymore for war.…

Of course Christians see this in a different way. The word of the Lord went from Zion to the world when the gospel and the New Covenant was rejected by most Jews and Jesus became a light and salvation for the Gentiles as well as the Jews. (Isa 49:6). We have come to the God of Jacob and the mountain of the house of the Lord has been established as the chief of the mountains.

And Jews giggle when you try to twist Is 49:6 to mean this because it means that you don't understand the entire chapter. But do carry on.

 

[Brian2]

Isaiah 2 is a future prophecy, it hasnt happened yet. But that will when Christ returns.

According to Peter in Acts (Acts 2:15-17) the last days started when the gospel back then.
But you are right that most of Isa 2:2-4 has not happened yet. That prophecy is an overview of what will happen in the last days which started with Jesus.

 

[Rival]

In Isa 49:5,6 we can see the Messiah. How can Israel be the servant to restore the tribes of Jacob?

I don't know what you're trying to say here. Do you realise these two (Israel and Jacob) are the same?

 

[Brian2]

I don't know what you're trying to say here. Do you realise these two (Israel and Jacob) are the same?

Yes I realise that. That is why I am saying that in Isa 49:5,6 which is one of the Servant series, how can Israel be formed to bring back Israel.
The Servant here is the Messiah and is that one of Israel who was anointed to for the task of bringing Israel back and also for a light and salvation for the Gentiles.

 

[Brian2]

And Jews giggle when you try to twist Is 49:6 to mean this because it means that you don't understand the entire chapter. But do carry on.

I would like to hear what you think of the entire chapter.

 

[Rival]

Yes I realise that. That is why I am saying that in Isa 49:5,6 which is one of the Servant series, how can Israel be formed to bring back Israel.
The Servant here is the Messiah and is that one of Israel who was anointed to for the task of bringing Israel back and also for a light and salvation for the Gentiles.

Your language use was confusing me for a moment.

This passage I think is one to which you may be referring:

And He said, "It is too light for you to be My servant, to establish the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the besieged of Israel, but I will make you a light of nations, so that My salvation shall be until the end of the earth."

It is about Isaiah himself.

 

[rosends]

I would like to hear what you think of the entire chapter.

take a look at verse five and realize that the first person speaker has been charged (chosen from before birth) with a responsibility to bring the natin back to observance of God's laws. That same first person is also charged with being a light for the rest of the world to remind everyone of God's dominion and explain what will happen at the end of days
עתה לא יהיה תכלית שליחותך ענין פרטי שהוא להשיב הדור ההוא בתשובה רק ענין גדול כללי, כי אתה נמשחת לבשר ענוים הבשורות הגדולות והנחמות העתידות, בעת הישועה הכללית שתהיה באחרית הימים, אשר לאור נבואתך ילכו גוים רבים,

or even more explicitly

פי' כי נבואותיך יהיו לעתיד לאור גוים שיראו שיתקיימו נבואותיך ישובו לדרך טוב ויאירו בך להיות ישועתי עד קצה הארץ, כי בתשועת ישראל יהיו נושעים גם כן הגוים אחר מלחמות גוג ומגוג, כמו שאמר יבאו כל בשר להשתחוות לפני, ואמר והלכו גוים לאורך ומלכים לנוגה זרחך

so the speaker is the prophet who explains that God (who becomes a first person) speaks to him (as the second person, charged with the job).

It's a grammar thing.

 

[gnostic]

At first, when I was exploring the Bible, and the concept of the messiah, I just took for granted what the churches the say about Jesus being the Messiah as true.

This was 1980s & 90s, where in the 80s, the Internet wasn’t as big as the following decades.

Also in the 80s, I was in late teen and early 20s, I didn’t know how to study the Bible properly and I didn’t know of any Jew, whom I could talk to.

But from 2000, I have more experiences in reading texts, and the more I explored, revisiting the Bible with fresh eye, after 14-year hiatus, the more I discovered Christian teachings of the Messianic prophecies being wrong, the verses interpreted poorly, the more it confirmed that much of Isaiah’s signs weren’t about Jesus.

I have learned over the years, that NT authors (as well as later church teachings) have reinterpret OT verses, by quoting single verse at the time and changing the context, all the while ignoring the rest of surrounding verses in that chapter.

Often reading the entire chapter, provide the original context of the concerned verse.

I have discovered that it’s poor scholarship to use and take out of context a single verse, whether it by NT authors themselves or by any reader of today.

 

[Brian2]

Your language use was confusing me for a moment.

This passage I think is one to which you may be referring:

And He said, "It is too light for you to be My servant, to establish the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the besieged of Israel, but I will make you a light of nations, so that My salvation shall be until the end of the earth."

It is about Isaiah himself.

It is true that Isaiah has been a light to the gentiles so that God's salvation shall be until the end of the earth, and we see Jesus in there, the one who brings salvation to the ends of the earth.
The thing is about this passage is that verse 3 says:
Isa 49:3 He said to me, “You are my servant,
Israel, in whom I will display my splendor.”
Why is this about Isaiah when it is about Israel?
Why will you say that a servant passage can be about one Israelite, Isaiah, but not about another one, Jesus?

So anyway, it is about Israel and Israel was not formed to establish and bring back Israel. It needs to be one Israelite. Was Isaiah such a prophet that he is given the task of bringing the whole world to God, including Israel, when he had already been commissioned to blind Israel.

 

[Brian2]

take a look at verse five and realize that the first person speaker has been charged (chosen from before birth) with a responsibility to bring the natin back to observance of God's laws. That same first person is also charged with being a light for the rest of the world to remind everyone of God's dominion and explain what will happen at the end of days
עתה לא יהיה תכלית שליחותך ענין פרטי שהוא להשיב הדור ההוא בתשובה רק ענין גדול כללי, כי אתה נמשחת לבשר ענוים הבשורות הגדולות והנחמות העתידות, בעת הישועה הכללית שתהיה באחרית הימים, אשר לאור נבואתך ילכו גוים רבים,

or even more explicitly

פי' כי נבואותיך יהיו לעתיד לאור גוים שיראו שיתקיימו נבואותיך ישובו לדרך טוב ויאירו בך להיות ישועתי עד קצה הארץ, כי בתשועת ישראל יהיו נושעים גם כן הגוים אחר מלחמות גוג ומגוג, כמו שאמר יבאו כל בשר להשתחוות לפני, ואמר והלכו גוים לאורך ומלכים לנוגה זרחך

so the speaker is the prophet who explains that God (who becomes a first person) speaks to him (as the second person, charged with the job).

It's a grammar thing.

It does not look like a grammar thing to me. It looks like you have decided that God's servant Israel (verse 3), in this passage can refer to one person, Isaiah, but cannot refer to the one chosen to be bring salvation to the whole earth, the Messiah.

 

[Brian2]

At first, when I was exploring the Bible, and the concept of the messiah, I just took for granted what the churches the say about Jesus being the Messiah as true.

This was 1980s & 90s, where in the 80s, the Internet wasn’t as big as the following decades.

Also in the 80s, I was in late teen and early 20s, I didn’t know how to study the Bible properly and I didn’t know of any Jew, whom I could talk to.

But from 2000, I have more experiences in reading texts, and the more I explored, revisiting the Bible with fresh eye, after 14-year hiatus, the more I discovered Christian teachings of the Messianic prophecies being wrong, the verses interpreted poorly, the more it confirmed that much of Isaiah’s signs weren’t about Jesus.

I have learned over the years, that NT authors (as well as later church teachings) have reinterpret OT verses, by quoting single verse at the time and changing the context, all the while ignoring the rest of surrounding verses in that chapter.

Often reading the entire chapter, provide the original context of the concerned verse.

I have discovered that it’s poor scholarship to use and take out of context a single verse, whether it by NT authors themselves or by any reader of today.

It has certainly been a blessing in so many ways to have the internet instead of an encyclopaedia or a couple of books in the family home. The problem is that errors are pretty rampant on the internet and so truth is mixed with errors.
The Messianic prophecies that Christians accept in many cases seem hidden and that is because they have been hidden. It can be hard to tell they are Messianic at times and at other times it is much easier.
I would say it became a lot easier for the early Christians after Jesus showed them what the scriptures said about Him and it became easier after they had seen what Jesus had done and relate it to what the scriptures said.
Many times the prophecies in scripture had a meaning for the time they were written but also had a further meaning. eg Isa 9:6,7 may have been about Hezekiah but in a more literal sense Hezekiah could not fulfil the prophecy fully and when we look at Isa 9:1,2 we also see how it could relate to Jesus.
From here, since Isa 9:6,7 is related to Isa 7:14 (and esp for Matthew who knew Mary had been a virgin)
we can see the reason (apart from alma being translated "virgin" in the Septuagint) that Matthew gave the alternative rendering of "alma" as "virgin".

 

[Rival]

It is true that Isaiah has been a light to the gentiles so that God's salvation shall be until the end of the earth, and we see Jesus in there, the one who brings salvation to the ends of the earth.
The thing is about this passage is that verse 3 says:
Isa 49:3 He said to me, “You are my servant,
Israel, in whom I will display my splendor.”
Why is this about Isaiah when it is about Israel?
Why will you say that a servant passage can be about one Israelite, Isaiah, but not about another one, Jesus?

So anyway, it is about Israel and Israel was not formed to establish and bring back Israel. It needs to be one Israelite. Was Isaiah such a prophet that he is given the task of bringing the whole world to God, including Israel, when he had already been commissioned to blind Israel.

It's still about Isaiah. He's being personified as Israel.

 

[Brian2]

It's still about Isaiah. He's being personified as Israel.

Israel, as the firstborn of God is a type of the Messiah in various places in the Hebrew scriptures.