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Judging a Religion

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
Hey Segev,

Again, I'm not claiming the "correct" definition, just swapping ideas: if I understand you, you're saying that an aspect of spiritual is that it's unexplainable?
Yep...
That's not the case for me. How about if I said something like "peak moments" are spiritual for me? Peak moments could come while skiing, or star gazing, or conversing...
I Feel the same way...
My question is, if you knew that the feeling is caused due to some drug that the brain releases whenever you are in an extreme sport for example (We'll call it adrenaline).. will it make it less "Awwing"??
It does feel amazing and wonderful.. yet we know there is nothing spiritual about it... its the biochemistry of the brain... for me that makes it even more wonderful than thinking it is something that God or Angel or some unknown energy caused...
I Know its my own brain that can manipulate and control my body in ways our wildest imagination can't even think of.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
@Segev Moran

I've no problem saying it's just brain chemistry - no need for supernatural explanations. So maybe it's just tapping into extraordinary brain chemistry.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
In the previous post you provided a pretty precise chronology of events, why do you consider this even loosely accurate though?

Early Sources didn't even know when Muhammad was born giving wildly varying answers and the Quran clearly doesn't reflect the pagan backwater of the traditions. The later the biography the more 'accurate' and the more detailed

Pretty major things seem to have been 'forgotten', like who the Sabeans were and what the 'mysterious letters' mean, yet we have a very precise detailed account of Muhammad's life.
It doesn't matter, if the sources are earlier or later. History can be distorted at any point of time. The problem is knowing and recognising when it become distorted, exaggerated, redacted, invented.

Studying history, often involved in sorting and judging the various sources, on how much that can be confirmed by external sources (in this case, non-Islamic sources vs Islamic sources), how much have been distorted or exaggerated or redacted. Biases can often be introduced by patriotism, or being in the presence of charismatic leader, or any other possibilities.

That's why historiographers preferred to acquire as many external and independent extant sources, and finding archaeological evidences are more objective than written history or oral traditions.

I don't think it is really possible to get the complete picture of Muhammad, even with all the sources we have, and each one are suspected of bias. The historians and biographers, and other authors near Muhammad's time, often tell a one-sided story, not only about his involvement in religion itself, but also in Muhammad's politics and military actions.

The first three years, when I have joined RF, I really didn't know much about Muhammad's life, and when it come to wars that took place while he was still alive, often I hear the arguments from Muslims that is everyone else's faults, not Muhammad's, like it is always the other side who broke treaties or promises, or the other side had committed treasons, or the other side started the wars, or that they only fought the wars in self-defence.

But the more I read about Muhammad in Islamic history or biographers, the more I can see that the whole stories are not being told.

Take for instance, one of the events before Muhammad supposedly met Muhammad, like childhood. His uncle take him to Syria, in which they have met Bahira, who supposedly foretold that Muhammad would one day be a prophet.

Each of the sources come from three 9th century biographers/historians. So what are the likelihood that these versions was true or invention? The later is most likely.

Just like what you said about when Muhammad was born - that no one can agree with date - no one can agree with Muhammad's age with this supposed encounter with Syria hermit.

I could find no sources earlier than these sources. And there are no sources that I could find from Christian or Syrian sources that this Bahira ever existed.

Everything about Muhammad's life before being a prophet, are questionable. The Qur'an make no mention of this Bahira; in fact, I don't think that I have ever recall that the Qur'an ever mention his childhood. But that's really no biggie, because the Qur'an itself is not a book of history, and not reliable.

So what does really tell us about the authors (e.g. historians, biographers, scholars, etc)?

That they are prone to exaggerate or make up stories. That's too, is no biggie, because it happen often in western history or eastern history.
 

Satyamavejayanti

Well-Known Member
"paarsurre"

Namaste,

One shouldn't judge any person or any religion and leave it to be Judged by G-d and He will sure judge everybody on the Judgement Day:

To me Allah/G-d does not exist, so this quote from a book does not mean anything to me.

From the points given by one, I like the last one very strongly:

7) To find out the Truth about a Claim of a religion.

If you believe that there is a judgement day, then you cannot find out the truth of a religious claim, as even this will be done on judgement day by your G-d/Allah or whatever.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
It doesn't matter, if the sources are earlier or later. History can be distorted at any point of time. The problem is knowing and recognising when it become distorted, exaggerated, redacted, invented.
Studying history, often involved in sorting and judging the various sources, on how much that can be confirmed by external sources (in this case, non-Islamic sources vs Islamic sources), how much have been distorted or exaggerated or redacted. Biases can often be introduced by patriotism, or being in the presence of charismatic leader, or any other possibilities.
That's why historiographers preferred to acquire as many external and independent extant sources, and finding archaeological evidences are more objective than written history or oral traditions.
I don't think it is really possible to get the complete picture of Muhammad, even with all the sources we have, and each one are suspected of bias. The historians and biographers, and other authors near Muhammad's time, often tell a one-sided story, not only about his involvement in religion itself, but also in Muhammad's politics and military actions.
The first three years, when I have joined RF, I really didn't know much about Muhammad's life, and when it come to wars that took place while he was still alive, often I hear the arguments from Muslims that is everyone else's faults, not Muhammad's, like it is always the other side who broke treaties or promises, or the other side had committed treasons, or the other side started the wars, or that they only fought the wars in self-defence.
But the more I read about Muhammad in Islamic history or biographers, the more I can see that the whole stories are not being told.
Take for instance, one of the events before Muhammad supposedly met Muhammad, like childhood. His uncle take him to Syria, in which they have met Bahira, who supposedly foretold that Muhammad would one day be a prophet.
Each of the sources come from three 9th century biographers/historians. So what are the likelihood that these versions was true or invention? The later is most likely.
Just like what you said about when Muhammad was born - that no one can agree with date - no one can agree with Muhammad's age with this supposed encounter with Syria hermit.
I could find no sources earlier than these sources. And there are no sources that I could find from Christian or Syrian sources that this Bahira ever existed.
Everything about Muhammad's life before being a prophet, are questionable. The Qur'an make no mention of this Bahira; in fact, I don't think that I have ever recall that the Qur'an ever mention his childhood. But that's really no biggie, because the Qur'an itself is not a book of history, and not reliable.
So what does really tell us about the authors (e.g. historians, biographers, scholars, etc)?
That they are prone to exaggerate or make up stories. That's too, is no biggie, because it happen often in western history or eastern history.

Reference: colored in magenta above.

I don't agree with one.
As a prophet of G-d Muhammad's full picture is given in Quran. Please
Regards
 
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