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Just A Question?!!!
- Thread starter sesame
- Start date
chinu
chinu
I'll transfer all of my powers to the one who obey me in every order, and thereafter, the disobedient sons would not be able to disturb the obedient one.
jonman122
Active Member
I'm not exactly sure where I recall letting your sons kill each other is located in the bible.
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Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
Here is a question for you...
if you have 1 healthy son, and one son who is very ill and requires an urgent kidney transplant, will you allow your one healthy son to undergo the serious operation of having one of his kidneys removed in order to save your sick son?
This isn't really Christian dogma, you know. But I am sure that is how you see it.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Jesus never ever suggested any such thing. But........ would you like to direct me to any part of any of the gospels to show me otherwise? Bet you can't!
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
He's ( or she's)talking about Jesus.
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Why is it that so many people assume that penal substitution is Christian dogma? It's blasphemy and heresy, and ruins Christianity in the eyes of millions! No one ever had the idea in their heads before John Calvin came along. John Calvin absolutely destroyed much of Western Christianity.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe substitutionary attonement was a Jewish concept as it appears in the scapegoat. Although I beleive Calvin was wrong about many things, I have not investigated this one.
I believe Calvin gave Christianity a theological structure to build upon.
I fail to see how one could reason this way.
Breathe
Hostis humani generis
Though I agree with you, would you please share some of the other views?
The three in my Keith Ward book are atonement as victory, sacrifice, or healing. Any others it's missing?
Sure thing! Here's a post I made on another topic in this forum that covers the very same topic.Though I agree with you, would you please share some of the other views?
The three in my Keith Ward book are atonement as victory, sacrifice, or healing. Any others it's missing?
The early Christians for the first thousand years all shared the same understanding of why Christ died, and it is a synthesis of several opinions(URL's attached to each name for further information) :
A: The Moral Influence view. This teaches that Christ came, taught and died to help humanity become more moral; His death on the Cross was showing us to what extent the Trinity loves us, and so we should love each other and God with the same love.
B: Christus Victor. This teaches that, when Jesus was crucified on the Cross, He crucified death and sin. He then descended into Hades and smashed the gates open and overthrew the demons, death and sin, freeing humanity, which had been enslaved to these things ever since the Fall. Christ's death was a victory over death, sin and the demons, as was His Resurrection.
C: The Ransom view. On the contrary to what penal substitution teaches, the Ransom view teaches that Jesus died to give Himself as a ransom to DEATH, not to God the Father. This one is VERY closely related to Christus Victor; Jesus paid Himself as a ransom to death. But since death could not hold Him Who is the life of the world, Jesus burst asunder the stranglehold of death over humanity, and thus freed humanity by giving Himself as a ransom.
D: The Recapitulation view. This teaches that Jesus died and rose from the dead in order to reconcile God and man; Jesus became incarnate in order to share in the fullness of our human experience, with all its temptations, darkness, sorrows, pains and trials--and even death and separation from God. He shared in the entirety of our human experience when He died; he did all this to assume our human nature and human experience fully, so that He might unite it to His Divine Nature, thus making Himself into a bridge between God and man. God and man were reconciled at the Cross. And just as Jesus shared in our humanity by dying, so Jesus enabled us to share in God's Life full of blessings, joy, peace, love, light and life when He rose from the dead.
If you'd like, I can provide Scripture for each of these.
In opposition to the ancient Christian understanding, you now have penal substitution, which fails both the test of historicity (it was never taught in the early Church, and this is the universal consensus of scholars), and the test of logic (how can punishing the innocent while letting the guilty go free satisfy God's sense of justice in any way?)
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The goats were not slaughtered to satisfy God's wrath, but to take away sin from the people, as a prefigurement of Christ Who would do the same. Moreover, God repeatedly told the Jews that He had no desire in sacrifices; instead, He wanted His people to turn away from their sin and repent.
If by "Christianity" you mean "some sects of Protestantism," then yes, I would agree.
If by "theological structure to build on" you mean soul-destroying heresies that have mangled Christian spirituality and thought in the West for centuries, then yes, I would agree.
Because it takes a loving, caring God Who wills all to be saved, and turns Him into a pitiless, heartless monster of a courtroom judge that has anger management issues.
Breathe
Hostis humani generis
Awesome! Very, very nice.Sure thing! Here's a post I made on another topic in this forum that covers the very same topic.
[snip]
Please do; they seem fair to me -- though I know some people may think they're "Unbiblical", so I'd love to have Scriptural support for if I mention it to people and they question it.If you'd like, I can provide Scripture for each of these.
outhouse
Atheistically
Why try and promote hate for something you know so little about?
Can we talk about your deity of choice in such a manner?
For Christus Victor:Awesome! Very, very nice.
Please do; they seem fair to me -- though I know some people may think they're "Unbiblical", so I'd love to have Scriptural support for if I mention it to people and they question it.
Hosea 13:14
“I will ransom them from the power of the grave;[a]
I will redeem them from death.
O Death, I will be your plagues![b]
O Grave,[c] I will be your destruction![d]
Pity is hidden from My eyes.”
Psalm 68:18
You have ascended on high, You have led captivity captive; You have received gifts among men, Even from the rebellious, That the Lord God might dwell there.
1 Corinthians 15:53-56
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”[g] 55 “O Death, where is your sting?[h]
O Hades, where is your victory?”[i]
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Isaiah 25:18
He will swallow up death forever,
And the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces;
The rebuke of His people
He will take away from all the earth;
For the Lord has spoken.
Hebrews 2:14-15
Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
For the ransom view:
Hosea 13:14 again
“I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave, I will be your destruction! Pity is hidden from My eyes.”
Matthew 20:28
just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
Mark 10:45
For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
1 Timothy 2:6
who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
Psalm 103:4
Who redeems your life from the pit, Who crowns you with steadfast love and mercy
Revelation 5:9
And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
Romans 6 (this also goes for Christus Victor)
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 . . . 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
. . . 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
Romans 8:21
because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Galatians 4:3-5
Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born[a] of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
For the Recapitulation view
Ephesians 2:14-18
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
2 Corinthians 5:18-20
Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.
Colossians 1:19-23
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
2 Peter 1:4
by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
For the Moral Influence view
1 John 3:16
By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
An uncountable amount of teachings of Jesus also attest to this; you can look at any one of His parables, and you will see that He taught us by both His life and words. I really don't think it's deniable that Jesus taught and lived in order to teach us to be better people.
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