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Just Accidental?

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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It isn't my religion that is toxic...its the world we live in....or hadn't you noticed? It isn't my religion that teaches me to see the gross wrongdoing in the world...it is the nightly news. I guess you never watch it....or can you just ignore the events that are unhinging society? Can you just tune out the bad stuff...? What does that leave you with?

Your religion defines how you view the world. As I've explained to you, I have no use for its misanthropy, nihilism and pessimism. Those ideas don't help me to navigate life more effectively, so they have only negative value, like a bad smell in a room that taints your experience of that room. If this really were the horrible world you imagine it to be, there might be value in recognizing that in order to be more alert to the dangers and minimize the damage done by them.

If your worldview were more accurate, people like me should be hurt by the world more than those who understand that one needs to fear it. If people like me are more correct, then your life and mine should play out about the same, except with you needlessly fearing dangers that have been grossly overblown.

I have had a good life living it as if life is good and most people are good. I am grateful to have been born when I was instead of any time in the past, because life has never been better. We are living longer, healthier, safer, more comfortable, and more interesting lives than was possible a century ago or any time before that.

My maternal grandfather died of a heart attack in his early fifties before I was born, presumably because he had the same cardiovascular risk factors that I do. The difference is that I have access to effective medication that mitigates those risks. I'm already ten years older than he was when he died, and have good reason to expect 20-30 more years of life (I'm 62 now).

What you call "tuning out the bad stuff" is more properly understanding what things I can help and what things I cannot, and turning my attention away from the latter toward the former.

There is really is no useful information that doesn't have a direct impact on our lives, so I have no use for the news except local news, although I must confess to a morbid fascination with America's presidential problem. But that is just entertainment, not useful information. It's like a Shakespearean tragedy unfolding. Hamlet was indecisive, Macbeth was weak under the influence of an overly ambitious and ruthless wife, and Lear was the fool. Each of these larger-than-life characters was defeated by his fatal flaw. Trump's will be his hubris and narcissism.

So what benefit do you see coming from steeping in negativity as you seem to be encouraging me to do? I used to be more that way myself, back in the nineties when I first realized that America was dying. I was a political junkie, and seemed to be able to identify trends relatively early. My wife remembers vividly my "sky is falling" demeanor. I shared my alarm with her and anybody else that would listen. I convinced nobody, and people thought less of me, some even expressing concern. By the time they came around - and not because of me - I had mostly completed the grieving process, which ends with acceptance. Most of these other people, though now in agreement that America is changing for the worse and will likely never again be the country they remember, are still running around with their hair on fire. What's the value in that? It's unpleasant, unhealthy, and useless.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That has also been 'discussed' quite a bit. Its also been well established that the fossils do not speak for themselves but are given a voice by scientists...ever see a ventriloquist at work? The fossils speak only their language...how odd. The scientists interpret their evidence to support their assumptions. The assumptions however, are not supported by any real evidence.

I think he only needs to look at a few pages of this thread to get the gist of it, especially one with one of your montages of nature photography. The thread is basically you versus the rest of thread telling us how you just can't see how reality can be explained without invoking a god, the rest of us telling you that your arguments are opinions that we don't share, you requesting evidence, and then without addressing specifics, call it all imagination and supposition.

Since the 'pot' considers himself a fluke of nature, there is no one to thank for his existence either

That's fine. Gratitude doesn't need to be directed.

Yes ....the entire universe is just one gigantic accident......life invented itself....it just happened one day for no apparent reason and nothing caused it. It just 'poofed' itself into existence and transformed amoebas into dinosaurs........and eventually into us. You can believe that if you like.....I personally think its nonsense.

There's a perfect example of you just-not-seeing-it and offering an opinion instead of an argument.

it has been well established throughout this thread that the theory of evolution is all based on "imagination".

And yet another of your unsupported opinions, one that nobody has accepted from you, but that you somehow think has been well established anyway.

What is well established is that that is your opinion. You've said it a couple hundred times since I've been posting here. The handful of other creationists that occasionally post here would agree with your opinion, but they held it long before coming to this thread, so you established nothing with them, either.

What the overwhelming majority of posters would agree is well established is that evolution is a fact and a useful theory based on mountains of observations, and that creationists are unwilling or unable to see much less evaluate the supporting evidence.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
How many times must I say it....I don't even know who these men are....nor am I interested in anything they have to say.
Can I make that any clearer? My views are shaped by my faith in the Bible and in its author, whom I believe is the Creator of all things.
Then why do you keep demanding evidence? Why do you keep challenging people to present you evidence of something that you will never, ever change your mind on?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
So you agree with the assumption?

Are you serious? You have to "assume" that reproduction happened?
352nmsp.gif


I think it's more advantageous to learn how life came into being rather than just making guesses about how it changed....but that is just the way my logic works.
4chsmu1.gif
Creation answers both questions for us....with no ambiguity. Evolutionists run away from abiogenesis....."nothing to do with us, so don't ask"...!

amoeba's are NOT the common ancestors of plants and animals. They are a specialized single-celled organism. Much closer would be something like Volvox.

220px-Mikrofoto.de-volvox-4.jpg

"Volvox diverged from unicellular ancestors approximately 200 million years ago."

The algae told you this, did they? The next obvious question is, where did the "unicellular ancestors" come from? They just came out of nowhere......:shrug: ......for no apparent reason. Mr Nobody strikes again!

Perhaps the thing volvox have in common with amoebas is their Creator? :D

It is certainly possible a deity exists and used mutation and natural selection to produce new organisms. it is even possible, though less liekly based on the evidence, that the evolution was directed.

Since he is the Creator...why would he need to use evolution? You seem to assume that it is the better method......why? The Creator has already programmed adaptation into his creatures. Would it suit your worldview better if he did use evolution?
297.gif
Based on the actual evidence, I don't see why he would.

He is a creator who has expressed his creativity in many ways......human creators like to use their own hands and imagination to create, don't they? We are made to reflect the Creator's qualities, so it looks to me as though he likes to make things directly himself. Why wouldn't he? I am an artist, so I understand how that works. If you are creative, you have to create....

So, you require millions of special creations just after similar animals went extinct. This happened for many different species over millions of years in different locations. Often, when the old species went extinct, more than one new species was created to replace it.
Is that close to what you believe?

You think the one who created the universe would find it difficult to tweak or fine tune his creation? Don't we see fine tuning in the universe? Why not fine tuning in everything else?

"The premise of the fine-tuned Universe assertion is that a small change in several of the dimensionless physical constants would make the Universe radically different. As Stephen Hawking has noted, "The laws of science, as we know them at present, contain many fundamental numbers, like the size of the electric charge of the electron and the ratio of the masses of the proton and the electron. ... The remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life."[4]

If, for example, the strong nuclear force were 2% stronger than it is (for example, if the coupling constant representing its strength were 2% larger), while the other constants were left unchanged, diprotons would be stable; according to physicist Paul Davies, hydrogen would fuse into them instead of deuterium and helium.[9] This would drastically alter the physics of stars, and presumably preclude the existence of life similar to what we observe on Earth. The existence of the diproton would short-circuit the slow fusion of hydrogen into deuterium. Hydrogen would fuse so easily that it is likely that all of the Universe's hydrogen would be consumed in the first few minutes after the Big Bang.[9] This "diproton argument" is disputed by other physicists, who calculate that as long as the increase in strength is less than 50%, stellar fusion could occur despite the existence of stable diprotons.[10]

The precise formulation of the idea is made difficult by the fact that physicists do not yet know how many independent physical constants there are. The current standard model of particle physics has 25 freely adjustable parameters with an additional parameter, the cosmological constant, for gravitation. However, because the standard model is not mathematically self-consistent under certain conditions (e.g., at very high energies, at which both quantum mechanics and general relativity are relevant), physicists believe that it is underlaid by some other theory, such as a grand unified theory, string theory, or loop quantum gravity. In some candidate theories, the actual number of independent physical constants may be as small as one. For example, the cosmological constant may be a fundamental constant, but attempts have also been made to calculate it from other constants, and according to the author of one such calculation, "the small value of the cosmological constant is telling us that a remarkably precise and totally unexpected relation exists among all the parameters of the Standard Model of particle physics, the bare cosmological constant and unknown physics."

Fine-tuned Universe - Wikipedia


Sounds reasonable to me.....

Do you see why reasonable people think that is silly since we *know* that mutation and natural selection will produce the same types of effects using only properties we know happen in life?

I love the fact that you classify yourselves as the "reasonable" people when we do not find your theory even remotely resonable. It lacks everything a scientific theory needs......solid evidence, proven and repeatable by experimentation....not inference and assumption skewed towards a pet idea that someone started to mull over not even two centuries ago because he saw some creatures that were different, in a different environment. :rolleyes:

Sure, but the pattern seen isn't one of new experiments with wildly different organisms, but with new organisms that are similar to the old ones that went extinct. Why do you assume it is NOT through simple reproduction?

You are seeing my position as black and white......it isn't. Adaptation can explain similarities but only within a species. Varieties within those species can be seen in the Galapagos iguanas and finches.

But recent research into the iguanas is interesting, especially for those who believe in evolution.......

Here is what one researcher said....

"Marine iguanas clearly offer important insights into evolutionary processes, but environmental changes mean that their long-term survival could be in jeopardy. Genetic studies have shown us that marine iguana populations on different islands are distinct from one another. Work is underway into their taxonomic situation, and in the future, these populations may well be recognised as distinct subspecies or species. At the same time, we know that some of these populations are already extremely small and face significant threats from marine pollution and predation by introduced species. The situation is of great concern because marine iguanas occur on the Galápagos archipelago and nowhere else on earth – they have never been successfully kept outside of the islands. It is therefore vital that we monitor and manage these populations, because if they disappear from Galapagos, they are lost forever.”

by Lisa Wheeler

The Evolutionary History of the Galapagos Marine Iguana - Galapagos Conservation Trust Blog

Perhaps the marine species is a distinctly different creation?...specially designed for marine life? They are all iguanas after all.....but like the big cats, all are creatively different from one another in different areas of the world. We would see that more as special creation, not necessarily adaptation then.....but you would find a way to interpret things from your viewpoint.

In any case, we each have our own way of ajudicating the "evidence"......it just depends on which lens one is peering through. :cool:
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
So what benefit do you see coming from steeping in negativity as you seem to be encouraging me to do? I used to be more that way myself, back in the nineties when I first realized that America was dying. I was a political junkie, and seemed to be able to identify trends relatively early. My wife remembers vividly my "sky is falling" demeanor. I shared my alarm with her and anybody else that would listen. I convinced nobody, and people thought less of me, some even expressing concern. By the time they came around - and not because of me - I had mostly completed the grieving process, which ends with acceptance. Most of these other people, though now in agreement that America is changing for the worse and will likely never again be the country they remember, are still running around with their hair on fire. What's the value in that? It's unpleasant, unhealthy, and useless.

What's the value in it??? Ask yourself why you were once consumed by it yourself? You compared it to a grieving process....so what died? Wasn't it the hope you once held for the future? Do you see the future as something to look forward to, in view of where the world is going at present...isn't it unhealthy and unpleasant? Aren't its selfish goals rather useless?

Do you accept the fate of the world because you have no control over it? There is one whose power can rectify everything. The Creator of this universe has the ability to fix everything that is wrong, but not before every intelligent creature has made one very important decision.....where their loyalty lies.

My view of the present is offset by my extremely optimistic view of the future....the reason it is so optomistic is because I do not have to depend on man to get us out of the hole he keeps digging. You can see it getting deeper and deeper.....where will it stop? Man says it will continue as it always has.....but if we keep doing what we are doing, extinction is assured......and it could come from a multitude of sources.

I believe when the time is right, and only the Creator knows "the day and the hour"...the end of this present world system will come in spectatcular fashion, just as the Bible predicts. God did not create this world for nothing.....he had a purpose for its existence, just as he has a purpose for ours. We can believe that or not.....

I have jurisdiction only over what I believe.....you have the right to believe whatever you wish.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Then why do you keep demanding evidence? Why do you keep challenging people to present you evidence of something that you will never, ever change your mind on?

Because I am not the only person reading these replies......if there was evidence instead of unsubstantiated supposition, you might have a case.....but when it comes down to it.....you have nothing but guesswork and inference. Its all there in the articles that have been offered to support your theory. You cannot prove that evolution ever happened....and all the put-downs and name calling will not change that.
no.gif
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What's the value in it??? Ask yourself why you were once consumed by it yourself? You compared it to a grieving ptocess....so what died? Wasn't it the hope you once held for the future? Do you see the future as something to look forward to, in view of where the world is going at present...isn't it unhealthy and unpleasant? Aren't its selfish goals rather useless?

You never answered my question. I'll assume that you cannot name any value in your dark view of the world. That will always be the default position whenever you evade an argument or question.

You shouldn't expect your questions to be treated differently.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Are you serious? You have to "assume" that reproduction happened?
352nmsp.gif


I think it's more advantageous to learn how life came into being rather than just making guesses about how it changed....but that is just the way my logic works.
4chsmu1.gif
Creation answers both questions for us....with no ambiguity. Evolutionists run away from abiogenesis....."nothing to do with us, so don't ask"...!

Abiogenesis is an interesting field of study and much progress has been made. But it isn't evolution. Evolution is how biological species change. it isn't about how life got started. It isn't about how the universe started. It is just about how species change.

The creationist position is the one that assumes that reproduction doesn't happen. For some unknown reason, it seems to think that old species go completely extinct and new species verysimilar to the old ones just appear with descent between them.

The algae told you this, did they? The next obvious question is, where did the "unicellular ancestors" come from? They just came out of nowhere......:shrug: ......for no apparent reason. Mr Nobody strikes again!

Perhaps the thing volvox have in common with amoebas is their Creator? :D

Perhaps you don't know the differences between different single-celled organisms?

[QUOTEeeeeeSince he is the Creator...why would he need to use evolution? You seem to assume that it is the better method......why? The Creator has already programmed adaptation into his creatures. Would it suit your worldview better if he did use evolution?
297.gif
Based on the actual evidence, I don't see why he would.[/QUOTE]

I don't assume it is better. I follow the evidence to say it is how things happened. if you want a creator to be directing that process, that is fine with me (until the evidence shows lack of direction).

He is a creator who has expressed his creativity in many ways......human creators like to use their own hands and imagination to create, don't they? We are made to reflect the Creator's qualities, so it looks to me as though he likes to make things directly himself. Why wouldn't he? I am an artist, so I understand how that works. If you are creative, you have to create....

What an ego you have to think that humans reflect the qualities of a creator!

You think the one who created the universe would find it difficult to tweak or fine tune his creation? Don't we see fine tuning in the universe? Why not fine tuning in everything else?

"The premise of the fine-tuned Universe assertion is that a small change in several of the dimensionless physical constants would make the Universe radically different. As Stephen Hawking has noted, "The laws of science, as we know them at present, contain many fundamental numbers, like the size of the electric charge of the electron and the ratio of the masses of the proton and the electron. ... The remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life."[4]

If, for example, the strong nuclear force were 2% stronger than it is (for example, if the coupling constant representing its strength were 2% larger), while the other constants were left unchanged, diprotons would be stable; according to physicist Paul Davies, hydrogen would fuse into them instead of deuterium and helium.[9] This would drastically alter the physics of stars, and presumably preclude the existence of life similar to what we observe on Earth. The existence of the diproton would short-circuit the slow fusion of hydrogen into deuterium. Hydrogen would fuse so easily that it is likely that all of the Universe's hydrogen would be consumed in the first few minutes after the Big Bang.[9] This "diproton argument" is disputed by other physicists, who calculate that as long as the increase in strength is less than 50%, stellar fusion could occur despite the existence of stable diprotons.[10]

The precise formulation of the idea is made difficult by the fact that physicists do not yet know how many independent physical constants there are. The current standard model of particle physics has 25 freely adjustable parameters with an additional parameter, the cosmological constant, for gravitation. However, because the standard model is not mathematically self-consistent under certain conditions (e.g., at very high energies, at which both quantum mechanics and general relativity are relevant), physicists believe that it is underlaid by some other theory, such as a grand unified theory, string theory, or loop quantum gravity. In some candidate theories, the actual number of independent physical constants may be as small as one. For example, the cosmological constant may be a fundamental constant, but attempts have also been made to calculate it from other constants, and according to the author of one such calculation, "the small value of the cosmological constant is telling us that a remarkably precise and totally unexpected relation exists among all the parameters of the Standard Model of particle physics, the bare cosmological constant and unknown physics."

Fine-tuned Universe - Wikipedia


Sounds reasonable to me.....

Which shows you didn't actually read what you quoted. We don't know that the different parameters are adjustable at all. We don't know how many of them are independent. We don't know whether life could develelop even if they were different.

And you *assume* the universe was created to support life. Why make that assumption? Once again the human ego that thinks we are the most important part of the huge universe. We may be a by-product that was completely unexpected (even if the universe were created). YOu simply don't know.

I love the fact that you classify yourselves as the "reasonable" people when we do not find your theory even remotely resonable. It lacks everything a scientific theory needs......solid evidence, proven and repeatable by experimentation....not inference and assumption skewed towards a pet idea that someone started to mull over not even two centuries ago because he saw some creatures that were different, in a different environment. :rolleyes:

You ignore the evidence. You ignore the experiments. You redefine the basic ideas to suit your purposes. And you have a pet idea that is *completely* untestable.

Yes, that is unreasonable.

You are seeing my position as black and white......it isn't. Adaptation can explain similarities but only within a species. Varieties within those species can be seen in the Galapagos iguanas and finches.

And what keeps the variation within a species?

But recent research into the iguanas is interesting, especially for those who believe in evolution.......

Here is what one researcher said....

"Marine iguanas clearly offer important insights into evolutionary processes, but environmental changes mean that their long-term survival could be in jeopardy. Genetic studies have shown us that marine iguana populations on different islands are distinct from one another. Work is underway into their taxonomic situation, and in the future, these populations may well be recognised as distinct subspecies or species. At the same time, we know that some of these populations are already extremely small and face significant threats from marine pollution and predation by introduced species. The situation is of great concern because marine iguanas occur on the Galápagos archipelago and nowhere else on earth – they have never been successfully kept outside of the islands. It is therefore vital that we monitor and manage these populations, because if they disappear from Galapagos, they are lost forever.”

by Lisa Wheeler

The Evolutionary History of the Galapagos Marine Iguana - Galapagos Conservation Trust Blog
http://galapagosconservation.org.uk/evolution-marine-iguana/

Looks like *exactly* what is expected from an evolutionary standpoint. Isolation is one factor that drives speciation. So we *expect* isolated populations to evolve into new species.

Perhaps the marine species is a distinctly different creation?...specially desitned for marine life? They are all iguanas after all.....but like the big cats, all are creatively different from one another in different areas of the world. We would see that more as special creation, not necessarily adaptation then.....but you would find a way to interpret things from your viewpoint.

Of course. It is trivial to explain from the evolutionary viewpoint. You have an initial populafion iguanas that populate the islands. That separation means the populations of the different islands evolve independently, leading to a new species on each island.

In any case, we each have our own way of ajudicating the "evidence"......it just depends on which lens one is peering through. :cool:

OK, so now, how do we *test* between the two viewpoints? How do we determine if these different species of iguanas actually have a common ancestor or not?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Because I am not the only person reading these replies......if there was evidence instead of unsubstantiated supposition, you might have a case...
The only person here, relying on "unsubstantiated supposition" here, is you and other creationists with the same agenda.

You have provided no evidences to support creationism is real, because you have no evidences for the existence of your "Creator" god.

You post pictures of animals that have no context that God "created" them. Nor do those photos of animals in any way refute evolution.

You don't even understand the word "evidence" anyway, because you think you belief is evidence. They are not. They are merely your personal opinions.

And when ever people us evidences from you, you do one of the following things:
  1. You post more photos of animals that have no connection to god.
  2. You ignore them, and start posting smilies as tactics of diverting attention away from requests for evidences.
  3. You ignore them and run away, wait for few days or weeks, then start all over again, demand evidences from everyone, but evade providing evidences yourself.
But that not your worse quality.

You've exhibited quite clearly a dishonest trait. You lie, you make false accusations and you spread misinformation about science and even about the bible itself.

I am not only the one who noticed your lack of honesty and integrity. And that come from indoctrination of JW.

Well done Deeje.

I didn't know much about Jehovah's Witnesses before joining RF, and only heard rumours about this group, but after meeting you, you have just confirmed just about everything that's so horribly wrong with this group. You have confirmed what I had only suspected.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Are you serious? You have to "assume" that reproduction happened?
352nmsp.gif


I think it's more advantageous to learn how life came into being rather than just making guesses about how it changed....but that is just the way my logic works.
4chsmu1.gif
Creation answers both questions for us....with no ambiguity. Evolutionists run away from abiogenesis....."nothing to do with us, so don't ask"...!



In any case, we each have our own way of ajudicating the "evidence"......it just depends on which lens one is peering through. :cool:

Very true, but one lens has a little more distortion!


Fossil record:
One 'lens' accepts the evidence as is- sudden appearances, gaps, jumps, stasis and all- as exactly what is expected and predicted by the theory- no embellishments required

The other proposes that these are actually all misleading illusions, artifacts of an incomplete record, and must produce countless artistic impressions of imaginary creatures to complete it's unfulfilled predictions .

DNA:
One theory explains this extraordinary digitally coded information system, with the one mechanism known and proven to be able to create such systems; creative intelligence
The other theory concedes it can't explain it, but generally supposes an additional unknown mechanism that must also forbid any creative involvement.

Direct experimentation:
One theory accepts the lab results, no matter how many generations and how much pressure to evolve is applied, bacteria are still bacteria, fruit flies still fruit flies, dogs still dogs, with a strictly limited capacity for variation beyond which fatal defects are incurred
The other theory contends that despite this, the process must still work somehow beyond our ability to directly confirm it.

Mathematical algorithm:
Once again, one theory accepts the results; models produce only what they are programmed to produce

The other theory imagines that despite this, an unguided algorithm exists in nature that can achieve what our best programmers cannot, (and again, the only certainty is that creative intelligence is strictly prohibited as an explanation for this amazing algorithm!)
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Are you serious? You have to "assume" that reproduction happened?
352nmsp.gif


I think it's more advantageous to learn how life came into being rather than just making guesses about how it changed....but that is just the way my logic works.
4chsmu1.gif
Creation answers both questions for us....with no ambiguity. Evolutionists run away from abiogenesis....."nothing to do with us, so don't ask"...!



220px-Mikrofoto.de-volvox-4.jpg

"Volvox diverged from unicellular ancestors approximately 200 million years ago."

The algae told you this, did they? The next obvious question is, where did the "unicellular ancestors" come from? They just came out of nowhere......:shrug: ......for no apparent reason. Mr Nobody strikes again!

Perhaps the thing volvox have in common with amoebas is their Creator? :D



Since he is the Creator...why would he need to use evolution? You seem to assume that it is the better method......why? The Creator has already programmed adaptation into his creatures. Would it suit your worldview better if he did use evolution?
297.gif
Based on the actual evidence, I don't see why he would.

He is a creator who has expressed his creativity in many ways......human creators like to use their own hands and imagination to create, don't they? We are made to reflect the Creator's qualities, so it looks to me as though he likes to make things directly himself. Why wouldn't he? I am an artist, so I understand how that works. If you are creative, you have to create....



You think the one who created the universe would find it difficult to tweak or fine tune his creation? Don't we see fine tuning in the universe? Why not fine tuning in everything else?

"The premise of the fine-tuned Universe assertion is that a small change in several of the dimensionless physical constants would make the Universe radically different. As Stephen Hawking has noted, "The laws of science, as we know them at present, contain many fundamental numbers, like the size of the electric charge of the electron and the ratio of the masses of the proton and the electron. ... The remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life."[4]

If, for example, the strong nuclear force were 2% stronger than it is (for example, if the coupling constant representing its strength were 2% larger), while the other constants were left unchanged, diprotons would be stable; according to physicist Paul Davies, hydrogen would fuse into them instead of deuterium and helium.[9] This would drastically alter the physics of stars, and presumably preclude the existence of life similar to what we observe on Earth. The existence of the diproton would short-circuit the slow fusion of hydrogen into deuterium. Hydrogen would fuse so easily that it is likely that all of the Universe's hydrogen would be consumed in the first few minutes after the Big Bang.[9] This "diproton argument" is disputed by other physicists, who calculate that as long as the increase in strength is less than 50%, stellar fusion could occur despite the existence of stable diprotons.[10]

The precise formulation of the idea is made difficult by the fact that physicists do not yet know how many independent physical constants there are. The current standard model of particle physics has 25 freely adjustable parameters with an additional parameter, the cosmological constant, for gravitation. However, because the standard model is not mathematically self-consistent under certain conditions (e.g., at very high energies, at which both quantum mechanics and general relativity are relevant), physicists believe that it is underlaid by some other theory, such as a grand unified theory, string theory, or loop quantum gravity. In some candidate theories, the actual number of independent physical constants may be as small as one. For example, the cosmological constant may be a fundamental constant, but attempts have also been made to calculate it from other constants, and according to the author of one such calculation, "the small value of the cosmological constant is telling us that a remarkably precise and totally unexpected relation exists among all the parameters of the Standard Model of particle physics, the bare cosmological constant and unknown physics."

Fine-tuned Universe - Wikipedia


Sounds reasonable to me.....



I love the fact that you classify yourselves as the "reasonable" people when we do not find your theory even remotely resonable. It lacks everything a scientific theory needs......solid evidence, proven and repeatable by experimentation....not inference and assumption skewed towards a pet idea that someone started to mull over not even two centuries ago because he saw some creatures that were different, in a different environment. :rolleyes:



You are seeing my position as black and white......it isn't. Adaptation can explain similarities but only within a species. Varieties within those species can be seen in the Galapagos iguanas and finches.

But recent research into the iguanas is interesting, especially for those who believe in evolution.......

Here is what one researcher said....

"Marine iguanas clearly offer important insights into evolutionary processes, but environmental changes mean that their long-term survival could be in jeopardy. Genetic studies have shown us that marine iguana populations on different islands are distinct from one another. Work is underway into their taxonomic situation, and in the future, these populations may well be recognised as distinct subspecies or species. At the same time, we know that some of these populations are already extremely small and face significant threats from marine pollution and predation by introduced species. The situation is of great concern because marine iguanas occur on the Galápagos archipelago and nowhere else on earth – they have never been successfully kept outside of the islands. It is therefore vital that we monitor and manage these populations, because if they disappear from Galapagos, they are lost forever.”

by Lisa Wheeler

The Evolutionary History of the Galapagos Marine Iguana - Galapagos Conservation Trust Blog

Perhaps the marine species is a distinctly different creation?...specially designed for marine life? They are all iguanas after all.....but like the big cats, all are creatively different from one another in different areas of the world. We would see that more as special creation, not necessarily adaptation then.....but you would find a way to interpret things from your viewpoint.

In any case, we each have our own way of ajudicating the "evidence"......it just depends on which lens one is peering through. :cool:
The fine tuning argument sounds good to you? If the universe is indeed fine tuned for human life, how is it then, that the vast, vast, vast majority of the universe is completely inhospitable and even hostile to us? Even vast parts of the planet we live on are inhospitable to our human life. The idea that it was all made just for us seems to be a stretch of the imagination.

When one peers at the evidence with a scientific eye, as thousands of scientists over the course of 150+ years have done, the obvious conclusion is that organisms evolve over time. Everything changes over time. That is just a fact of life.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Very true, but one lens has a little more distortion!


Fossil record:
One 'lens' accepts the evidence as is- sudden appearances, gaps, jumps, stasis and all- as exactly what is expected and predicted by the theory- no embellishments required

The other proposes that these are actually all misleading illusions, artifacts of an incomplete record, and must produce countless artistic impressions of imaginary creatures to complete it's unfulfilled predictions .

DNA:
One theory explains this extraordinary digitally coded information system, with the one mechanism known and proven to be able to create such systems; creative intelligence
The other theory concedes it can't explain it, but generally supposes an additional unknown mechanism that must also forbid any creative involvement.

Direct experimentation:
One theory accepts the lab results, no matter how many generations and how much pressure to evolve is applied, bacteria are still bacteria, fruit flies still fruit flies, dogs still dogs, with a strictly limited capacity for variation beyond which fatal defects are incurred
The other theory contends that despite this, the process must still work somehow beyond our ability to directly confirm it.

Mathematical algorithm:
Once again, one theory accepts the results; models produce only what they are programmed to produce

The other theory imagines that despite this, an unguided algorithm exists in nature that can achieve what our best programmers cannot, (and again, the only certainty is that creative intelligence is strictly prohibited as an explanation for this amazing algorithm!)

What matters is that one idea is useful and the other not, like astronomy and astrology. What argument would make NASA toss out astronomy and replace it with astrology?

Likewise, why would we toss out evolution and replace it with creationism?
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
What matters is that one idea is useful and the other not, like astronomy and astrology. What argument would make NASA toss out astronomy and replace it with astrology?

hmm.. some massive political grants would probably do it. After all they abandoned science and took to climastrology pretty readily! :)

Likewise, why would we toss out evolution and replace it with creationism?


As above, and just like classical physics to QM, we keep the useful, practical scientific parts of evolution; the fossils, the experiments, the genetic research. We toss out the erroneous Victorian age extrapolations that gave us endless artistic impressions of imaginary creatures, Piltdown man, dogs from grey wolves, birds from dinos, and we gain a clearer more useful understanding of natural history and reality in general.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You never answered my question. I'll assume that you cannot name any value in your dark view of the world. That will always be the default position whenever you evade an argument or question.

Since I subscribe to the Bible's view of this world, (1 John 5:19) the things that I value are the things I would value regardless.....like life itself, family, friends and exploring and appreciating the unspoiled parts of the natural world and its amazing creatures. I would still enjoy my art and exploring various avenues to express my creativity, whilst appreciating the creativity and ingenuity of others.

The "darkness" of my view is created by the wealthy, greedy, godless individuals and organisations, (including those who profess to be religious) who wish to impose their will on the rest of us....abusing their power over us for their own benefit.

Who causes wars? Who is polluting the earth? Who is exploiting the people and especially the children who live in poverty in third world nations? Who controls the distribution of the world's wealth? It's food supplies? Access to clean water? Who causes the circumstances that leave people homeless? Not God. He is standing back, giving the human race enough rope to hang themselves. This world is the product of humans leaving the laws and standards of the Creator, to do things "their way". Life lessons can be tough, but they are the best teachers.

By your own admission, you said you see America dying....who is killing it? It's not the only nation in crisis however.....how many countries are satisfied with their the way their governments are taking care of their citizens? Ask yourself....if everyone followed the two commands that Jesus said we should (to love God and to treat your neighbor the way you would like to be treated) what difference would we see in the lives of all of earth's inhabitants.....not just the privileged few who happen to be born in the "right" nation.

It is my belief that God will soon eliminate from existence, all who prevent his will from being done, "on earth as it is in heaven". They have had ample time to do things their way, with completely disastrous results.....When God re-establishes his rulership, the world will become what he first purposed......a paradise inhabited by a perfect race of obedient humans who will care for the earth and each other as he intended in the first place. We can be part of that or we can choose to reject it. I know what I have chosen. What others choose is up to them.

So, just because I don't answer your questions the way you want me to, doesn't mean I don't answer them.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Abiogenesis is an interesting field of study and much progress has been made. But it isn't evolution. Evolution is how biological species change. it isn't about how life got started. It isn't about how the universe started. It is just about how species change.

Abiogenesis is no closer to creating life than it ever was. Science cannot make a living blade of grass.

Science can manipulate the building blocks of life, but it can never create it. Progress means what? More guesswork? :shrug:

How life began, I believe determines how much it has the ability to adapt.....how much is programmed into the genetics of every creature. There are obvious boundaries seen in every experiment that science has ever conducted. Not once has a species demonstrated an ability to become anything other than what its genetics dictate......it always stays completely within its taxonomic genus definition. Varieties within a species is not macro-evolution....it can simply be adaptation.

The creationist position is the one that assumes that reproduction doesn't happen. For some unknown reason, it seems to think that old species go completely extinct and new species verysimilar to the old ones just appear with descent between them.

I am shaking my head right now....what a ridiculous statement!
Reproduction has to happen, just as it was obviously designed to....what doesn't happen is that creatures, over extreme periods of time, become completely different creatures. That takes place only in the imagined parts of evolutionary science. You fill in the blanks with "beliefs" about what "might have" happened, and then have the audacity to present it as fact. The truth is....it was never a fact to begin with.

I don't assume it is better. I follow the evidence to say it is how things happened. if you want a creator to be directing that process, that is fine with me (until the evidence shows lack of direction).

There is no "real" evidence.....there is only "interpretation" of evidence.....and very biased interpretation to assume how it "might have" happened and then to pretend that it "must have". Let's be honest about that.

"Lack of direction"? You think that what facilitates the mechanisms in myriads of fully self-replicating lifeforms lacks direction? That these extraordinarily complex, integrated biological systems just designed themselves "accidentally" to perform functions that had no indication of a designer? Seriously?
images


What an ego you have to think that humans reflect the qualities of a creator!

It is the Creator himself who tells us that we are endowed with his attributes. Since we humans are unique in all of creation, and the Bible explains why we can't at present live up to that endowment, I see again that the Bible has all the answers. You guys have no explanation for anything. No hope for a secure future, and no way to prove that macro-evolution ever happened. To you guys, it's all just a huge accident.....no direction required. That does not sound reasonable to me.

Which shows you didn't actually read what you quoted. We don't know that the different parameters are adjustable at all. We don't know how many of them are independent. We don't know whether life could develelop even if they were different.

Thank you....finally an admission of "we don't know".....that is not the impression you give to students who might be exploring this branch of science. They are all fully indoctrinated before even they leave high school. Just imagine the damage done to young minds if you are wrong.....? Popular opinion is no guarantee of being correct. Feeding inaccurate and biased information to young and impressional minds is a big responsibility, which is why young people should be exposed to both sides of this issue. Then they can make up their own minds instead of being fed ridicule and distain for anyone who disagrees or who exposes the fraud.

And you *assume* the universe was created to support life. Why make that assumption?

Hang on.....that is another assumption on your part. According to the Bible, the earth is unique because there was a deliberate process to turn a dead planet into one that could support life. Choosing this one tiny planet in a specific part of one galaxy was not accidental. The placement of this planet was ideal. Just the right distance from the perfectly sized sun (among billions) and just the right spot in the Milky Way to ensure our safety and provide the right conditions for life to thrive for all time to come.....
This planet, according to Genesis was a desolate waste like all the rest before the Creator began to prepare it for living things to inhabit. So where do you get the idea that "the universe was created to support life"? Where else has life ever been found? Yet, the potential for the Creator to make more planets habitable in the future, is unlimited.

Once again the human ego that thinks we are the most important part of the huge universe. We may be a by-product that was completely unexpected (even if the universe were created). YOu simply don't know.

I accept the Bible's explanation of who we are, and why we were put here. We are most certainly NOT the most important part of a very big picture. We are important enough though, for the Creator to ensure that our continued existence will never be blighted by the decisions of selfish individuals who can't follow instructions. We may be at the mercy of a powerful few at the moment, but that I believe is all about to change.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Have you ever heard from any of these "lurkers"?

Most of the lurkers here are not members, so they can't post. If you go to the top of the page and click on "Members" you will see "Current Visitors"...if you click on that you will see over 12 pages of "guests" who have visited the site in the last 15 minutes. Some of them are ISP robots but a lot of them are real people. :)

Since this thread has almost 58,000 views and only a bit over 8,300 replies, there is a large difference in the ones viewing, to the ones posting. I like to speak to the silent lurkers through conversations with people like you, who provide not much more than put-downs and name calling. It exposes how little science really has when it is put on the spot to provide real evidence to support its belief system. We at least admit that we have a belief system....you pretend yours is fact when we can see clearly that it is not evidence based at all....unless you call guessing "evidence".
 
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Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Most of the lurkers here are not members, so they can't post. If you go to the top of the page and click on "Members" you will see "Current Visitors"...if you click on that you will see over 12 pages of "guests" who have visited the site in the last 15 minutes. Some of them are ISP robots but a lot of them are real people. :)

Since this thread has almost 58,000 views and only a bit over 8,300 replies, there is a large difference in the ones viewing, to the ones posting. I like to speak to the silent lurkers through conversations with people like you, who provide not much more than put-downs and name calling. It exposes how little sciemnce really has when it is put on the spot to provide real evidence to support its belief system. We at least admit that we have a belief system....you pretend yours is fact when we can see clearly that it is not evidence based at all....unless you call guessing "evidence".
So that's a "No, I haven't heard from any lurkers".
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
10 to the 70th power possibility that natural selection can produce one protein.

how drastically far is one protein from complex cellular life.

evolution is an affinity many scientists have, and they ignore it's total impossibility, and ram complex insinuations down our throats.

truth is you can't produce squat with evolution.
 
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