Just Accidental?

[SkepticThinker]

Firstly, that would depend on your interpretation of "creationism", since there are many versions of that as well.....most of them as equally absurd as evolution. You would be replacing one silly belief system for another with neither having anything but assumption to back it up. Real science is supported by the Bible, so you do not need to ditch science to believe in an Intelligent Designer.....and you don't have to ditch the Bible to believe in true science.

Science has no way to disprove the existence of a powerful Intelligent force that exists in a realm not yet discovered by them.
There is so much yet to be discovered.....how can they dismiss it all out of hand? Egotism.....that's how.

That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. The time to believe in a thing is when there is evidence for that thing, and not before.

 

[Deeje]

That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. The time to believe in a thing is when there is evidence for that thing, and not before.

Well, the Bible indicates that by the time you 'see' the evidence you seek, it will be too late. The Creator does not want to bully people into submission....he wants it to be a willing act, precipitated by appreciation for all his efforts so far.

Whether you believe in the historicity of the flood account or not....the lesson is there for all. A warning was issued, a means of escape was supplied and only the obedient ones who put in the hard work, survived. They were a small unpopular minority.

Those who took no notice of the warning, waited to see firsthand what Noah had been preaching about....but by the time they saw the evidence for themselves, the door was closed. Noah wasn't the one who closed the door. It was a prophetic pattern of things to come. (Matthew 24:37-39) I believe that the door of opportunity is about to close again.

 

[Deeje]

And those will be only JWs I presume?

No actually, because the majority of those who are resurrected into the "new earth" will have never heard of Jehovah's Witnesses. God is not interested in labels....he is more interested in actions motivated by love and appreciation for God and neighbor. Its a "cap fits" kind of arrangement.

 

[Deeje]

You can't even show that your Creator was created.

Why does a being you can't even comprehend have to fit into your definition?

Who said he had to be created? He is not a material being. He isn't really even a "he".

And who in their right mind could conclude that some pretty ducks had to have been created when allegedly not even the Creator who created a whole universe including these ducks was created?

And who in their right mind would enter an art gallery and assume that there was no artist? That all the brushstrokes on the canvasses just mutated and accidently became artwork.....Only an idiot IMO.

 

[metis]

As has been explained many times over, subatomic particles, energy waves, and matter itself are in constant motion, combining, breaking apart, and then recombining [rinse & repeat], so there will be an "order" produced even though that order need not be completely uniform. This we know. What we cannot determine objectively is whether a god or gods was behind it all, so we shouldn't be assuming one way or another, imo.

 

[ArtieE]

And who in their right mind would enter an art gallery and assume that there was no artist? That all the brushstrokes on the canvasses just mutated and accidently became artwork.....Only an idiot IMO.

So what about your Creator? Does it exist by accident, did it evolve or was it created? Surely if a pretty duck can't exist "accidentally" neither can your Creator?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Well, the Bible indicates that by the time you 'see' the evidence you seek, it will be too late. The Creator does not want to bully people into submission....he wants it to be a willing act, precipitated by appreciation for all his efforts so far.

Whether you believe in the historicity of the flood account or not....the lesson is there for all. A warning was issued, a means of escape was supplied and only the obedient ones who put in the hard work, survived. They were a small unpopular minority.

Those who took no notice of the warning, waited to see firsthand what Noah had been preaching about....but by the time they saw the evidence for themselves, the door was closed. Noah wasn't the one who closed the door. It was a prophetic pattern of things to come. (Matthew 24:37-39) I believe that the door of opportunity is about to close again.

I don't see how providing evidence equates to bullying anyone. But isn't that a convenient answer: "No evidence will be provided, and by the time evidence is provided, it will be too late anyway." Is that supposed to be fair?

I don't accept the historicity of the flood account in the Bible, because there's no evidence that it happened. It makes absolutely no sense to expect people to believe anything in the absence of good evidence. It makes even less sense coming from a god who supposedly loves his creates and desires their worship.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Why does a being you can't even comprehend have to fit into your definition?

Who said he had to be created? He is not a material being. He isn't really even a "he".



And who in their right mind would enter an art gallery and assume that there was no artist? That all the brushstrokes on the canvasses just mutated and accidently became artwork.....Only an idiot IMO.

We have good evidence of human beings creating artwork. We have the names of the artists. In some cases, we can even meet the artist. We have no evidence that artwork just appears by itself or reproduces itself or mutates itself. So yes, one would have to be quite dim to assume that a human being didn't create the artwork we see in art galleries.

On the other hand, we have no good evidence that a supernatural, incomprehensible, non-human being created anything or even exists in the first place.

 

[Deeje]

I don't see how providing evidence equates to bullying anyone. But isn't that a convenient answer: "No evidence will be provided, and by the time evidence is provided, it will be too late anyway." Is that supposed to be fair?

To understand what God is doing, and has already done is to see the big picture. It seems to me that people stare at what they think are a few dead pixels in the creation scenario and assume that the whole picture doesn't exist. The pixels aren't dead, they are just misinterpreted.

God has provided all the "evidence" we need to acknowledge his existence. Millions of people find it more than adequate, yet millions more say that it's not enough. To believers who understand his purpose in connection with the earth and its inhabitants, we add the explanations in the Bible to see where we are in the outworking of it all. Its an amazing picture to us....but non-existent to those who can't "see" it...or who don't want to.

The Creator has given us intellect to study and comprehend his creation to an extent, but some have used it to suppose that humans are the highest, most advanced creatures in existence. That position makes God redundant in their minds. So be it. He has nothing to prove to those people.

I don't accept the historicity of the flood account in the Bible, because there's no evidence that it happened. It makes absolutely no sense to expect people to believe anything in the absence of good evidence.

You can accept or reject whatever you like. That is why we have free will. We can use it to appreciate the things God has done, as explained in his communication to mankind, or we can attribute everything to blind chance and see no point in any of it.

It makes even less sense coming from a god who supposedly loves his creates and desires their worship.

God does love his creation and desires their worship, but he has an adversary who has made serious accusations about him.....and us. He has stated that God was wrong to withhold a knowledge of evil from his children......that mankind deserved to be "like God, knowing good and bad". He also said that humans would not die as a result of disobeying him. Was he right? Did a knowledge of evil bring anything good to the human race? Did humans die, when God had created them to live forever, and provided the means to do so? (Genesis 3:19; 22-24)

The adversary also made accusations concerning us as God's children. In the account about Job, he stated that man serves his God, not out of love and loyalty, but because God gives them everything. He suggested that if God took everything that we value away, that we would not maintain any loyalty to God at all, in fact we would curse him. Was he right?
If all the things that humans value was taken from them and blamed on God, would they remain faithful to him, believing that accusation from a known liar?

There was only one way to find out what free willed beings would do.....allow them the absolute freedom that they demanded. Let them see where it would take them, and if that freedom really resulted in anything good in the long term? So how is that working out for us? What does the state of this world demonstrate beyond a shadow of doubt? We are hopeless and helpless without God to direct us. Its an essential object lesson that will affect mankind for all time to come.

We are being separated at this time, according to the Bible......and there are only two camps. We can believe God and uphold his side of the story.....or we can abandon him and feel smug about all that freedom that is killing us and destroying the only home we have. How clever are we really?

I believe what the Bible says....you are free not to.

 

[Deeje]

On the other hand, we have no good evidence that a supernatural, incomprehensible, non-human being created anything or even exists in the first place.

Actually we have all the evidence we need.....perhaps there is a reason why you don't see it, or can't acknowledge it?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Actually we have all the evidence we need.....perhaps there is a reason why you don't see it, or can't acknowledge it?

Pretty pictures from the internet don't cut it for me, sorry. I need actual evidence.

 

[Deeje]

Pretty pictures from the internet don't cut it for me, sorry. I need actual evidence.

The actual evidence is all around you....you just give the credit to "Mother Nature" instead of the "Father, God".
I believe that you just picked the wrong parent.

 

[Deeje]

Are these guys a product of accidental natural processes or do they demonstrate having been beautifully designed for survival? How does a mindless process produce this?

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=459967994357857

 

[Sapiens]

Same old, same old. They exhibit excellent leaf mimicry, clear evidence of evolution.

 

[Deeje]

Same old, same old. They exhibit excellent leaf mimicry, clear evidence of evolution.

Are you serious? This 'leaf mimicry' just happened with no designer? They just accidentally made themselves look like autumn leaves? Where is the "clear evidence of evolution"?
You can believe that if you like.....but it makes your position look pretty silly IMO.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Grass is advanced.......?

It's more advanced than just some random clumps of plant cells.

Life can only be transmitted from pre-existing life.

Man from nonliving dirt?

Show us the evidence for beneficial mutations.

Don't you show endless pictures of those mutations?

No one really knows "what" the Creator is....only "who" he is and what he has "done", according to the written records he supplied.

Yet you know enough about Him not to accept He must take responsibility for broken merchandise, such as disease and defects?

You need more evidence than what you have produced to date because that is only enough to convince the converted.

But you admit you can't read the big words in scientific journals, where you would find this evidence.

How do you know there isn't? Where do we get our moral sense from? Why do we alone have a conscience?

Why do you assume (wrongly) that only humans have moral senses?

The Creator has pre-programmed us to appreciate what is clean and beautiful and to reject what is dirty and ugly. You think that just evolved?

Yup. There are also many disorders that run from absolute filth to being so OCD about germs you scrape your own skin off. Or does the Creator not take responsibility for that either?

If you have to correct it, it wasn't a true in the first place

Much like religions/denominations, right?

No life has ever been found in our own solar system or any others.

No life fitting our anthropocentric ideas of life have been found. Stop posting pictures about animals and learn about them, for a change.

 

[Sapiens]

Are you serious? This 'leaf mimicry' just happened with no designer? They just accidentally made themselves look like autumn leaves? Where is the "clear evidence of evolution"?
You can believe that if you like.....but it makes your position look pretty silly IMO.

Rather simple, those with even a minor resemblance to a leaf are less likely to be predated upon.

 

[Olinda]

Are these guys a product of accidental natural processes or do they demonstrate having been beautifully designed for survival? How does a mindless process produce this?

@Deeje I'm honestly not understanding your beliefs. If these insects were 'designed for survival', does that mean you believe that predator/prey food chains were in the garden of Eden? And if not, when were they 'designed'?

 

[LuisDantas]

Are you serious? This 'leaf mimicry' just happened with no designer?

Exactly. It is Natural Selection 101, first class, really.

They just accidentally made themselves look like autumn leaves? Where is the "clear evidence of evolution"?
You can believe that if you like.....but it makes your position look pretty silly IMO.

If you say so.

 

[Deeje]

It's more advanced than just some random clumps of plant cells.

Man from nonliving dirt?

Man was fashioned from the elements of the earth....the fundamental building blocks of all creation. Life was then breathed in that lifeless body to animate it. When that lifebreath is extinguished, the body returns to a lifeless state. What is so difficult to understand? Life does not, and cannot, spring into existence spontaneously.

Don't you show endless pictures of those mutations?

No. I show endless pictures of perfect creations, not mindless accidents of nature. Seeing the pictures make people confront the reality of what science is suggesting. It is as much a belief system as what we have.

Yet you know enough about Him not to accept He must take responsibility for broken merchandise, such as disease and defects?

He has no responsibility at all for any defect in man. The "broken merchandise" is the result of an original parent passing along defective genes, just as anyone passes on a fatal genetic disorder. It is not a deliberate act, but the product of reproduction with nothing to pass on but faulty genes.

But you admit you can't read the big words in scientific journals, where you would find this evidence.

All the jargon does is mask how ridiculous the whole theory is.
Read the articles designed for people outside the scientific community to read and you will see that it is all based on educated guesswork.....there is no solid evidence that it ever happened. It is a belief system, not a factual account of man's history.

Why do you assume (wrongly) that only humans have moral senses?

Watching animals, it becomes very apparent that morality is rare in the animal kingdom. It seems to me that because humans have been led to believe that they are nothing more than animals this now justifies behaving like them.

Yup. There are also many disorders that run from absolute filth to being so OCD about germs you scrape your own skin off. Or does the Creator not take responsibility for that either?

No, he doesn't take responsibility for any of it.....and why should he? He gave humans free will but stopped short of it being absolute, for their own good. Used within the parameters he prescribed, all would have ended well. That wasn't good enough apparently, so God granted them the absolute freedom that they wanted.....look where that got us. It's an object lesson....a great teaching technique when someone can't be told.

No life fitting our anthropocentric ideas of life have been found. Stop posting pictures about animals and learn about them, for a change.

I have learned a great deal about them and the more I learn, the more I am convinced that they are the product of Intelligent Design......not an mindless series of fortunate accidents.