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Just Accidental?

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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Just to balance the OP I think we should celebrate all of god's wonderful creations...10 deadly parasites Most disgusting human parasites Some Of The Most Awful Parasites In The World Just accidental? No, god made these things to cause pain and suffering in other organisms because, well...god has a darker side right?

Sorry, but this was already addressed pages ago
sadviolin.gif
....try to keep up...OK?

It wouldn't be a "theist style" post if I didn't throw in a YouTube clip right? Never mind me people, look at the cute kittens, look at the trees. Aren't they just lurvely? Hoorah for god!

We are not going to blame God for the same things that you do in your limited understanding of the way things are at present. God created humankind to be resistant to disease by means of an incredibly designed immune system. Bacteria, viruses and parasites were never intended to affect humans the way they do now. The circumstances that encourage infection and infestation were never part of the Creator's original purpose....not for humans or animals. This world is not ruled by God. (1 John 5:19)

Humans lost their physical and spiritual perfection in Eden, making themselves susceptible to disease, aging and death through implementation of the penalty that they knew would come from disobeying one simple yet direct command.
They were evicted from an ideal living arrangement and forced to make a living in unnatural circumstances outside of their original home....on cursed ground. These are the circumstances that produced the outcome you mention.

By means of a re-institution of God's rulership over this Earth, (his promised kingdom to come) things will return to the way they should have been all along. This is what I believe and what I hope for. I have no reason to doubt its validity.

You can believe whatever you wish.
lookaround.gif
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
God created humankind to be resistant to disease
Who created the diseases humankind was supposed to be resistant to?
Bacteria, viruses and parasites were never intended to affect humans the way they do now.
How were they originally intended to affect humans?
Humans lost their physical and spiritual perfection in Eden, making themselves susceptible to disease, aging and death
And who created this disease, aging and death humans became susceptible to?
They were evicted from an ideal living arrangement and forced to make a living in unnatural circumstances
"Unnatural circumstances"?
outside of their original home....
"Original home"? So the Earth itself wasn't created for humans only the Eden part of it?
By means of a re-institution of God's rulership over this Earth, (his promised kingdom to come) things will return to the way they should have been all along.
So he's going to make the whole Earth a new Eden with thousands of Adams and Eves in it? Will there be new trees with forbidden fruits? Will we all be going around naked? No technology, no movies, no books no nothing?
 

The Holy Bottom Burp

Active Member
Sorry, but this was already addressed pages ago
sadviolin.gif
....try to keep up...OK?
I thought it might have been, but this thing is 200 pages long Deeje, I wasn't going to trawl through all of them. So briefly, just for my benefit, how do you explain god's wonderful parasites? Is it satan? Is it our fault again because Adam and Eve sinned? Whatever, god blameless as usual, we get what we deserve right?

We are not going to blame God for the same things that you do in your limited understanding of the way things are at present.
No, agreed on that point, you're not blaming god because that is not how religion works is it? I'm not blaming god because I don't think he exists.
I think I've explained to you before why I have a low opinion of "The Fall" as an explanation for why things are the way they are. Our "loving father" got angry with something our supposed ancestors did once, so thousands of generations thereafter are "born sick and commanded to be well". "Dad" left the drunk next door in charge while he got out of the house because we cause such an unpleasant smell in his nostrils. He sounds like a model parent!
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Who created the diseases humankind was supposed to be resistant to?

Bacteria and viruses and parasites are all living organisms. They were to survive along with other living things in an environment where nothing was to cause harm. Since we have never experienced life on that level since man's eviction from Eden, we no doubt will easily learn to live in the ideal circumstances we were meant to enjoy. We have a collective desire to live in paradise conditions....the vacation and tourist industry count on it.

How were they originally intended to affect humans?

They were not to affect us at all. There was never an intention to have these things invade our bodies in the first place. Our immune system is designed to keep them out. Microscopic organisms obviously have their place, but in this world, everything is out of kilter.

And who created this disease, aging and death humans became susceptible to?

No one created disease, aging and death in humans.....it occurred as the natural consequence of disobedience and being denied the only source of everlasting life. They knew the penalty before they disobeyed. No excuse for whining about the consequences....is there?

"Unnatural circumstances"?

There is nothing natural about the way humans live and die on this planet. Death would not have occurred in Eden at all. Obedience would have meant living forever in the most ideal circumstances, spreading the borders of their paradise home until the whole earth resembled the Garden of Eden.

"Original home"? So the Earth itself wasn't created for humans only the Eden part of it?

So he's going to make the whole Earth a new Eden with thousands of Adams and Eves in it? Will there be new trees with forbidden fruits? Will we all be going around naked? No technology, no movies, no books no nothing?

There will never need to be trees of the knowledge of good and evil ever again. The lesson has been learned in every generation since Adam. You cannot live life successfully by inviting evil into your life. Free will becomes a curse when people decide to trample on the free will of others. God initially tried to warn them of the consequences of unleashing this knowledge, but humans, egged on by another rebel, decided that it sounded like a good idea......was it? Did mankind benefit in any way from a knowledge of evil? Or was God right to decide what was good and bad for them, like any good parent trying to keep harm from his children?

AS to whatever that life may mean for us....we have no details.... but whatever it turns out to be....those fortunate enough to be there, will love it. What is not to love about paradise? :shrug:
 
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ArtieE

Well-Known Member
There is nothing natural about the way humans live and die on this planet.
If people and animals in Eden procreated but nobody died how would God handle the population explosion? Is really your idea of the perfect existence billions of perfect people running around naked living off the land?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I thought it might have been, but this thing is 200 pages long Deeje, I wasn't going to trawl through all of them.

Lazy bones.
nono.gif


So briefly, just for my benefit, how do you explain god's wonderful parasites? Is it satan? Is it our fault again because Adam and Eve sinned? Whatever, god blameless as usual, we get what we deserve right?

If you think any of that is true...what is there left to say? Parasites, viruses and bacteria are living things and have as much right to exist as any other in the big scheme of things. They were never supposed to cause harm to anything, but in a world handed over to the god that humans chose, they probably exist now where they are not supposed to be. Like a lot of things that are out of place, they don't belong and they cause problems.

Since Adam's disobedience caused his genetics to become faulty in some way, he had nothing good to pass onto his children. Just like many inherited disorders that exist today, it isn't the fault of the children if they get the faulty genes. But the parent doesn't deliberately give their disorder to their children. It is inevitable if they have children. The gene pool became a cesspool.
sad.gif


To understand what happened in Eden is to understand what the word "sin" actually means. In the original language, it is an archery term meaning to "miss the mark". Humans miss the mark of perfection because of the implementation of the death penalty. They chose the crime and its consequences. From the day they ate of the forbidden fruit, their bodies began to degenerate into aging, sickness and death.

No, agreed on that point, you're not blaming god because that is not how religion works is it? I'm not blaming god because I don't think he exists.

That is your prerogative entirely.

I think I've explained to you before why I have a low opinion of "The Fall" as an explanation for why things are the way they are. Our "loving father" got angry with something our supposed ancestors did once, so thousands of generations thereafter are "born sick and commanded to be well".

That is a very sad and limited view of what actually happened. "The fall" was the first step into what became an object lesson for all humanity. Free will was a gift, given in good faith to perfect humans who were not defective in any way. Without a knowledge of evil, it would have been a blessing. The paradise conditions into which they were placed should have spoken volumes as to the loving generosity of the Creator.
They had their every need catered for....fresh air...crystal clear water....and an endless orchard supplying many different fruits, ripe for the picking. They were told to "become many and fill the earth" with their kind. (not a difficult assignment) They were also commanded to "subdue" the earth in order to bring it into a condition that was like Eden. Good, satisfying and creative work for which they were well designed.

Eventually the whole earth would become a place where all humans could enjoy the life that the Creator had planned for them.
It should have been wonderful.....
loveshower.gif


They were not the only free willed creatures in existence however.
A rebel spirit, harboring a burning desire to become a god, saw an opportunity to gain what was after. He hijacked the human race and held them to ransom. Once the 'genie was out of the bottle', there was no sending it back. The knowledge of evil soon became acts of evil. So in order to teach all of his children a valuable lesson, God allowed the god they chose to rule them. The lesson has resulted in the whole of humanity being tested as to how they use their free will.....and the angelic creatures get the same test. All can observe what happens when we put our will ahead of God's....disaster follows. This sets precedents for all time to come, meaning that no rebel can ever usurp God's rightful sovereignty again....ever. Then the Creator can get on with his purpose for the rest of this vast universe.....whatever that might be.....and he has forever to do it.

"Born sick and commanded to be well"? How do you arrive at that? We are born with the inclination to do wrong (sin, missing the mark) but God has asked us to resist our natural inclinations and do good. It requires effort but he has promised to reward those who do. Its about getting a handle on free will and not allowing ours to encroach on the free will of others. Difficult, but by no means impossible. This is how he chooses those he wants to inhabit his "new earth". He has no place for rebels.
bonk.gif


This all makes perfect sense to me......it may be nonsense to you. :shrug:
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
If people and animals in Eden procreated but nobody died how would God handle the population explosion? Is really your idea of the perfect existence billions of perfect people running around naked living off the land?

Read his instructions for yourself....he told them to "fill the earth" NOT "overfill" it. When reproduction had reached its capacity, what is to stop the Creator making other planets habitable and eventually filling the whole universe? There are no limits to what he has purposed.

Clothing would have eventually become a optional thing IMO. There was no shame in being naked, but clothing for decoration....? Who knows?
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
They had their every need catered for....fresh air...crystal clear water....and an endless orchard supplying many different fruits, ripe for the picking. They were told to "become many and fill the earth" with their kind. (not a difficult assignment)
I imagine naked people would find it pretty difficult to survive in the deserts or at the poles. Not to mention in the oceans. Adam and Eve were perfect people and didn't know about clothing did they?
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Read his instructions for yourself....he told them to "fill the earth" NOT "overfill" it. When reproduction had reached its capacity, what is to stop the Creator making other planets habitable and eventually filling the whole universe? There are no limits to what he has purposed.
Every planet in the universe full of millions and billions of years old naked people living off the land. Wow...
 
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Looncall

Well-Known Member
Lazy bones.
nono.gif




If you think any of that is true...what is there left to say? Parasites, viruses and bacteria are living things and have as much right to exist as any other in the big scheme of things. They were never supposed to cause harm to anything, but in a world handed over to the god that humans chose, they probably exist now where they are not supposed to be. Like a lot of things that are out of place, they don't belong and they cause problems.

Since Adam's disobedience caused his genetics to become faulty in some way, he had nothing good to pass onto his children. Just like many inherited disorders that exist today, it isn't the fault of the children if they get the faulty genes. But the parent doesn't deliberately give their disorder to their children. It is inevitable if they have children. The gene pool became a cesspool.
sad.gif


To understand what happened in Eden is to understand what the word "sin" actually means. In the original language, it is an archery term meaning to "miss the mark". Humans miss the mark of perfection because of the implementation of the death penalty. They chose the crime and its consequences. From the day they ate of the forbidden fruit, their bodies began to degenerate into aging, sickness and death.



That is your prerogative entirely.



That is a very sad and limited view of what actually happened. "The fall" was the first step into what became an object lesson for all humanity. Free will was a gift, given in good faith to perfect humans who were not defective in any way. Without a knowledge of evil, it would have been a blessing. The paradise conditions into which they were placed should have spoken volumes as to the loving generosity of the Creator.
They had their every need catered for....fresh air...crystal clear water....and an endless orchard supplying many different fruits, ripe for the picking. They were told to "become many and fill the earth" with their kind. (not a difficult assignment) They were also commanded to "subdue" the earth in order to bring it into a condition that was like Eden. Good, satisfying and creative work for which they were well designed.

Eventually the whole earth would become a place where all humans could enjoy the life that the Creator had planned for them.
It should have been wonderful.....
loveshower.gif


They were not the only free willed creatures in existence however.
A rebel spirit, harboring a burning desire to become a god, saw an opportunity to gain what was after. He hijacked the human race and held them to ransom. Once the 'genie was out of the bottle', there was no sending it back. The knowledge of evil soon became acts of evil. So in order to teach all of his children a valuable lesson, God allowed the god they chose to rule them. The lesson has resulted in the whole of humanity being tested as to how they use their free will.....and the angelic creatures get the same test. All can observe what happens when we put our will ahead of God's....disaster follows. This sets precedents for all time to come, meaning that no rebel can ever usurp God's rightful sovereignty again....ever. Then the Creator can get on with his purpose for the rest of this vast universe.....whatever that might be.....and he has forever to do it.

"Born sick and commanded to be well"? How do you arrive at that? We are born with the inclination to do wrong (sin, missing the mark) but God has asked us to resist our natural inclinations and do good. It requires effort but he has promised to reward those who do. Its about getting a handle on free will and not allowing ours to encroach on the free will of others. Difficult, but by no means impossible. This is how he chooses those he wants to inhabit his "new earth". He has no place for rebels.
bonk.gif


This all makes perfect sense to me......it may be nonsense to you. :shrug:

Except, of course, none of that actually happened. It is clear that there were never Adam and Eve.

What you have is a primitive origins myth that has been turned into a vile scheme for giving clergy power over people. It a screamingly obvious scam. Tragically, the scam degrades believers' ability to reason accurately.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I imagine naked people would find it pretty difficult to survive in the deserts or at the poles. Not to mention in the oceans. Adam and Eve were perfect people and didn't know about clothing did they?

I don't believe that there were deserts or poles in the beginning. I believe that the earth at one time enjoyed a uniform climate.

Why would oceans be a problem? Humans have been navigating the oceans for centuries. Cruising is one of our favorite pass-times. :D

Do you have a hang-up about naked people? :eek:

It was God who made clothing for Adam and his wife after their defection. Outside the garden, "thorns and thistles" would mean torn flesh, so the long garments of skin made for them would have been a covering and a protection from the world outside the garden. I see no problems. :shrug:
 

The Holy Bottom Burp

Active Member
Lazy bones.
nono.gif
I give you top marks for your emoji collection Deeje, if not for your religious views! ;)


If you think any of that is true...what is there left to say? Parasites, viruses and bacteria are living things and have as much right to exist as any other in the big scheme of things. They were never supposed to cause harm to anything, but in a world handed over to the god that humans chose, they probably exist now where they are not supposed to be. Like a lot of things that are out of place, they don't belong and they cause problems.
That makes no sense to me, you claim your god designed and made these things, what else was a tick, a tape worm, and all those other horrible parasites I posted a link to supposed to be? Vegetarians?
The fact that animals have to eat each other is ghoulish when you think about it, god could have provided us all with plant life that supplies all the nutrients we need instead of making it so we are forced to take the life of another creature correct? But I suppose that is our fault again right? Is there anything that isn't our fault? Your beliefs are one long guilt trip Deeje, I see no joy or happiness in what you believe, just unremitting guilt.

I'm guessing your response will be that god is to create a new Earth where the "lion shall down with the lamb" (vegetarian lions right?), populated by Jehovah's Witnesses? He couldn't have just made things that way from the start? He wants centuries of violence, death and misery before he moves on to that "project"?
Since Adam's disobedience caused his genetics to become faulty in some way, he had nothing good to pass onto his children. Just like many inherited disorders that exist today, it isn't the fault of the children if they get the faulty genes. But the parent doesn't deliberately give their disorder to their children. It is inevitable if they have children. The gene pool became a cesspool.
sad.gif
.
So who caused our "genetics" to become "faulty"? God correct? So god has programmed us to be sinful hasn't he? We didn't wilfully change our own genes did we? Don't tell me that's our fault this time! God has programmed us to be sinful, like I said below "born sick and commanded to be well". He's a real charmer your god!



That is a very sad and limited view of what actually happened. "The fall" was the first step into what became an object lesson for all humanity. Free will was a gift, given in good faith to perfect humans who were not defective in any way. Without a knowledge of evil, it would have been a blessing. The paradise conditions into which they were placed should have spoken volumes as to the loving generosity of the Creator.
They had their every need catered for....fresh air...crystal clear water....and an endless orchard supplying many different fruits, ripe for the picking. They were told to "become many and fill the earth" with their kind. (not a difficult assignment) They were also commanded to "subdue" the earth in order to bring it into a condition that was like Eden. Good, satisfying and creative work for which they were well designed.

Eventually the whole earth would become a place where all humans could enjoy the life that the Creator had planned for them.
It should have been wonderful.....
loveshower.gif


They were not the only free willed creatures in existence however.
A rebel spirit, harboring a burning desire to become a god, saw an opportunity to gain what was after. He hijacked the human race and held them to ransom. Once the 'genie was out of the bottle', there was no sending it back. The knowledge of evil soon became acts of evil. So in order to teach all of his children a valuable lesson, God allowed the god they chose to rule them. The lesson has resulted in the whole of humanity being tested as to how they use their free will.....and the angelic creatures get the same test. All can observe what happens when we put our will ahead of God's....disaster follows. This sets precedents for all time to come, meaning that no rebel can ever usurp God's rightful sovereignty again....ever. Then the Creator can get on with his purpose for the rest of this vast universe.....whatever that might be.....and he has forever to do it.


This all makes perfect sense to me......it may be nonsense to you. :shrug:

It's not "free will" by your definition is it? It is the deity's will. Your deity says "you are free to choose option A or option B, but if you choose option B (which goes against my will) I'll annihilate you." A human giving other people a "choice" like that would be considered a tyrant, a savage bully. Old Bacon Bonce up in heaven is beyond reproach of course, perfect in every way, but he made us the loathsome disagreeable wretches we are, programmed to be sick so he can point an accusing finger at us.

You say you've been a JW for 40 years Deeje, so I expect your religion is your life, and you are happy in it. No problem with that, or any other religious person, as long as they don't seek to harm others or restrict their freedom. I hope you can at least perhaps understand a little from what I wrote, how pleased I am that there is no evidence for your religious beliefs being true. Whatever way you dress it up your god is a tyrant, a bully, and frankly twisted. I wouldn't want that thing to be pulling all the strings, it is horrible.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
What you have is a primitive origins myth that has been turned into a vile scheme for giving clergy power over people. It a screamingly obvious scam. Tragically, the scam degrades believers' ability to reason accurately.
Well, that sum up everything we know about Deeje.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Whatever way you dress it up your god is a tyrant, a bully, and frankly twisted. I wouldn't want that thing to be pulling all the strings, it is horrible.

Duly noted.
looksmiley.gif


God "caused" nothing bad. He has a purpose of his own design that ensures that we humans, made in his image, are fully aware of his rules. Without rules, we have anarchy. Reasonable rules protect us from ourselves and others. I have no issue with that, nor do I pretend to know all there is to know about my God at this point. I hope to have an eternity to find out. In the 45 years I have been making his acquaintance, I have grown to love him and to have the utmost respect for the way he has conducted this universal scenario. Through the precedents created by it, it ensures peace and harmony for the rest of eternity.

To live in any place on earth, we are under obligation to abide by the laws of that land, whether we agree with them or not. Each nation has the sovereign right to set their own rules. Why should God be any different, he being the Sovereign over all.

"Free will" was never "free" in the sense of doing whatever we liked. It was never meant to be like that.....it had set parameters and as long as humans stayed within those limits, all would be well....guaranteed. They chose to step outside those parameters and the stated consequences took place. If you don't like them apples....hard cheese.
4fvgdaq_th.gif

What can you realistically do about it?

The Creator grants life and can cancel it if his laws are broken. There is no torture or eternal flames....there is just life or death. If you want to argue with the terms set by the Creator, he will not force you to live where you do not want to....but seeing as how its the only place humans can live, it seems pointless to argue about them. That seems fair to me. I actually have no argument whatsoever with his rules. No more than a child with limited knowledge or maturity, rails against his parents who set what appear to be restrictions that interfere with his freedom. Those limits are set in love, just as God's limits reflect his love.

The reason I came out of the "church" system is because they teach that God is a tyrant, a bully and is twisted enough to torture living beings in an eternal fiery hell. The God I worship is nothing like that....but it is apparent that you don't want to know him....pity really.
Christendom has a lot to answer for.
Just_Cuz_15.gif
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I am just imagining every planet in the universe filled with millions and billions and trillions of years old naked people living off the land while breeding like rabbits.
Who said anything about old people?
129fs238648.gif
Aging came about as a result of disobedience. Living forever means never getting old, sick or disabled. Those bodies are young and active......clothing or no clothing. Do nudists see themselves or others as "naked"? After a while, when the novelty has worn off....they are all just people in different skins.

Breeding like rabbits?
jawsmiley.gif
Seriously, I have to wonder about the way your imaginings work.
14k8gag.gif

When you consider that those mentioned in the early accounts in the Bible were hundreds of years old before they even had children, it puts a whole different spin on things.
Noah, for example was 500 years old before he had children. That means that coming to physical maturity took way longer back then than it does now. What is the worst thing about early physical maturity....? Humans reproduce before they are mentally and emotionally mature enough to pass on wisdom that only comes with age. They usually pay for that in the many mistakes they make in parenting. Passing along bad traits instead of good ones is a recipe for all the problems we see in today's youth.
 

The Holy Bottom Burp

Active Member
Duly noted.
looksmiley.gif


God "caused" nothing bad. He has a purpose of his own design that ensures that we humans, made in his image, are fully aware of his rules.

I think you contradict yourself there Deeje, god messed with our "genetics" after all. Perhaps a little like he "hardened the heart" of the Pharaoh?
Without rules, we have anarchy. Reasonable rules protect us from ourselves and others.
True, but irrelevant, and I wouldn't say rules around slavery, killing witches or disobedient children are "reasonable".
To live in any place on earth, we are under obligation to abide by the laws of that land, whether we agree with them or not. Each nation has the sovereign right to set their own rules. Why should God be any different, he being the Sovereign over all.
Ah, I might agree if I thought there was a "Sovereign over all", damn glad to be living under a secular government tbh!
"Free will" was never "free" in the sense of doing whatever we liked. It was never meant to be like that.....it had set parameters and as long as humans stayed within those limits, all would be well....guaranteed. They chose to step outside those parameters and the stated consequences took place. If you don't like them apples....hard cheese.
4fvgdaq_th.gif

What can you realistically do about it?
How about not creating animals and giving them choice knowing they will make "bad" choices? How about not "interfering" with their genetics so they are "born into sin"? Just a couple of suggestions!
The Creator grants life and can cancel it if his laws are broken. There is no torture or eternal flames....there is just life or death. If you want to argue with the terms set by the Creator, he will not force you to live where you do not want to....but seeing as how its the only place humans can live, it seems pointless to argue about them. That seems fair to me. I actually have no argument whatsoever with his rules. No more than a child with limited knowledge or maturity, rails against his parents who set what appear to be restrictions that interfere with his freedom. Those limits are set in love, just as God's limits reflect his love.
The views of JWs sure, other Christians will tell me something entirely different. I've absolutely no reason to think the Watchtower has a better handle on "truth", when both parties rely on ancient anonymous religious texts.
The reason I came out of the "church" system is because they teach that God is a tyrant, a bully and is twisted enough to torture living beings in an eternal fiery hell. The God I worship is nothing like that....but it is apparent that you don't want to know him....pity really.
Christendom has a lot to answer for.
Just_Cuz_15.gif
You haven't persuaded me your take on the deity is any less tyrannical Deeje, but as ever I've enjoyed our "joust". I like the variety of your emojis! ;)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I think you contradict yourself there Deeje, god messed with our "genetics" after all. Perhaps a little like he "hardened the heart" of the Pharaoh?

The 'messing with the genetics' came as a result of a penalty that was merited. That penalty was set way before any disobedience took place. No disobedience would have meant no death, no hardship, no tragedy or evil deeds. It was not a hard test....just a simple one with big consequences. Once a knowledge of evil was unleashed, there was no sending it back. Adam's children would be subjected to it as a natural consequence....so God decided to use it to teach all of humanity the most valuable lesson of all.....the value of obedience. All parents set rules to protect their children. But when a parent says "don't touch the stove, it's hot" and a child decides to test it out, the consequences are painful and take time to heal. The lesson is learned the hard way, but it won't be forgotten in a hurry.

It wasn't God who hardened Pharaoh's heart.....he already had a heart of stone set in pride and seeing himself as a superior deity to Jehovah. That heart was permitted to take things to the nth degree in order to demonstrate who was superior. This proud man would not have yielded to Jehovah any other way. It was a lesson, not only to the Egyptians, but to his own people as well. Only when he was brought to his knees, did Pharaoh agree to release the Israelites.


I wouldn't say rules around slavery, killing witches or disobedient children are "reasonable".

Please try to remember the times in which those things took place. All of those things in today's world are unacceptable.
Back then, it was a different time with different attitudes.

damn glad to be living under a secular government tbh!

Me too actually. But Australia is a very secular country, with religion having very little influence in people's lives and decisions. Having said that, I value the freedom of worship guaranteed under our constitution and feel sorry for my brothers in Russia who are being persecuted under their secular government, which has denied them the right to worship freely.
Not all secular governments guarantee freedom.

How about not creating animals and giving them choice knowing they will make "bad" choices? How about not "interfering" with their genetics so they are "born into sin"? Just a couple of suggestions!

If you cannot appreciate the reasons why things are the way they are then I cannot explain it any better.
"A man convinced against his will...is of the same opinion still".

I've absolutely no reason to think the Watchtower has a better handle on "truth", when both parties rely on ancient anonymous religious texts.

You are entitled to believe whatever you wish....just as I am.

You haven't persuaded me your take on the deity is any less tyrannical Deeje, but as ever I've enjoyed our "joust". ;)

I am not here to persuade anyone about anything. I am here to share a viewpoint and the readers will evaluate what I write for themselves. As long as the conversation remains civil, every exchange is enjoyable.

I like the variety of your emojis!
They take the place of my hand gestures and intonation. I rarely speak without them.
connie_24.gif

They act as diffusers, lightening up heavy subjects.
 

The Holy Bottom Burp

Active Member
The 'messing with the genetics' came as a result of a penalty that was merited. That penalty was set way before any disobedience took place. No disobedience would have meant no death, no hardship, no tragedy or evil deeds. It was not a hard test....just a simple one with big consequences. Once a knowledge of evil was unleashed, there was no sending it back. Adam's children would be subjected to it as a natural consequence....so God decided to use it to teach all of humanity the most valuable lesson of all.....the value of obedience. All parents set rules to protect their children. But when a parent says "don't touch the stove, it's hot" and a child decides to test it out, the consequences are painful and take time to heal. The lesson is learned the hard way, but it won't be forgotten in a hurry.
It makes me sad to read stuff like that, a species with serious self esteem issues I'd say. I read something last year that maybe explains why humans are so apologetic for being alive, at the top of the food chain. We are at the top because of our large brains, not because of our brawn. A bear or a lion is a magnificent predator who knows he is king of his environment because he'll rip your face off if you disagree. We have got to the top without similar physical power, without similar ability to subjugate our rival mammals through brute strength. Hence we are slightly insecure, with self esteem issues. I think there is mileage in that.
It wasn't God who hardened Pharaoh's heart.....he already had a heart of stone set in pride and seeing himself as a superior deity to Jehovah. That heart was permitted to take things to the nth degree in order to demonstrate who was superior. This proud man would not have yielded to Jehovah any other way. It was a lesson, not only to the Egyptians, but to his own people as well. Only when he was brought to his knees, did Pharaoh agree to release the Israelites.
Exodus 9:12 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.

The Watchtower translation is the same correct? I think the bible very much contradicts you.



Please try to remember the times in which those things took place. All of those things in today's world are unacceptable.
Back then, it was a different time with different attitudes.
It was the same deity back then according to you though, what difference does human history make? "Truth" is "Truth" correct? The deity points the finger of blame at thousands of generations for something our ancestors did, but differentiates between Iron Age practice and 21st century practice? I do wish he would be more consistent!


Me too actually. But Australia is a very secular country, with religion having very little influence in people's lives and decisions. Having said that, I value the freedom of worship guaranteed under our constitution and feel sorry for my brothers in Russia who are being persecuted under their secular government, which has denied them the right to worship freely.
Not all secular governments guarantee freedom.
As it happens I admire Australia, I might yet get around to making the flight. Arnhem Land attracts me, I'd love to see some salt water crocs!
That aside, damn right gal, secular government rocks! Is all secular government good? No. Still, I've yet to see a good theocracy in action. Give me secular any day.

I am not here to persuade anyone about anything. I am here to share a viewpoint and the readers will evaluate what I write for themselves. As long as the conversation remains civil, every exchange is enjoyable.
I hope your pants are on fire at the moment, I notice you rarely miss an opportunity to proselytize, you are a JW, it is in your blood!

They take the place of my hand gestures and intonation. I rarely speak without them.
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They act as diffusers, lightening up heavy subjects.
For sure, I have an extensive collection of emojis myself, only Photobucket doesn't get on with this forum. However, I'm working on that, so expect some spectacular emojis to come!!
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I read something last year that maybe explains why humans are so apologetic for being alive, at the top of the food chain. We are at the top because of our large brains, not because of our brawn. A bear or a lion is a magnificent predator who knows he is king of his environment because he'll rip your face off if you disagree. We have got to the top without similar physical power, without similar ability to subjugate our rival mammals through brute strength. Hence we are slightly insecure, with self esteem issues.

Exodus 9:12 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.

The Watchtower translation is the same correct? I think the bible very much contradicts you.

Here is an interesting translation from the "Complete Jewish Bible"....there is no contradiction. Often when it is said that Jehovah did something, he merely allowed it to happen. He simply did nothing to soften Pharaoh's already hard heart.
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Exodus 9:12
"But the Lord strengthened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not hearken to them, as the Lord spoke to Moses.".....
34, 35 "And Pharaoh saw that the rain, the hail, and the thunder had ceased; so he continued to sin, and he strengthened his heart, he and his servants.
35 And Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not let the children of Israel go out, as the Lord had spoken through the hand of Moses."

Shemot - Exodus - Chapter 9 (Parshah Va'eira)

I believe this carries the idea better in the original language. God "strengthened" Pharaoh's heart, making it stronger in his defiance than common sense would dictate. Despite his promises to let Israel go if the plagues were stopped, 9 times Pharaoh's heart was unresponsive, totally intent on absolute defiance of Israel's god, despite it being proven that he could not match him in power. The final blow was his own fault.

It was the same deity back then according to you though, what difference does human history make? "Truth" is "Truth" correct? The deity points the finger of blame at thousands of generations for something our ancestors did, but differentiates between Iron Age practice and 21st century practice? I do wish he would be more consistent!

This is a deity who operates within the period in which his people live. He changed nothing in the world, but allowed humans to build their own empires and to exercise their own free will inside that framework. He then gave his people instructions on how to conduct themselves within that framework.

He has not held generations of humans responsible for anything Adam did....he makes them all individually responsible for what they themselves do with the exercise of their free will. If the world practiced slavery, he taught his people how to treat slaves. In civilizations that practiced idolatry, he warned them not to worship lifeless idols.
In this day and age, he tells us how to live in a world where morality has all but disappeared. We are judged by how well we obey his directives, just like Adam.
Our lives are in our own hands....no one is in the driver's seat but us.
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Is all secular government good? No. Still, I've yet to see a good theocracy in action. Give me secular any day.

I have yet to see a good theocracy in action myself. Israel was certainly not a good example because of their frequent excursions into false worship.....and no other religiously based model has ever been free of corruption. It goes with humans nature. Power corrupts, just as God warned his people when they demanded a human King. It brought nothing but trouble on the whole nation.

I hope your pants are on fire at the moment, I notice you rarely miss an opportunity to proselytize, you are a JW, it is in your blood!

It is true, but my pants are not even warm
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......witnessing is in my blood and I see it as an obligation to follow through on the commands of the Christ. But I cannot make anyone do anything......Jesus didn't either. He offered his message and some accepted....most didn't. What is unfair about that?
How else are people to make up their minds about things if they don't hear both sides?
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expect some spectacular emojis to come!!

Look forward to it.....
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