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Just Accidental?

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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The field of comparative genomics is based on evolutionary common ancestry (for example, CLICK HERE). It's what tells geneticists which genomes to compare, what to look for, and how to interpret the results.

Your link here does not work without a password....try quoting it.

Suffice it to say that if we share DNA with fruit flies and bananas, we are not going to come to any major conclusions about our own genetics from science any time soon. Their findings will always agree with their theory. Funny that. :confused:


Let me quote the "Abstract" in the introduction to this one.....

Abstract
We present a statistical graphical model to infer specific molecular function for unannotated protein sequences using homology. Based on phylogenomic principles, SIFTER (Statistical Inference of Function Through Evolutionary Relationships) accurately predicts molecular function for members of a protein family given a reconciled phylogeny and available function annotations, even when the data are sparse or noisy. Our method produced specific and consistent molecular function predictions across 100 Pfam families in comparison to the Gene Ontology annotation database, BLAST, GOtcha, and Orthostrapper. We performed a more detailed exploration of functional predictions on the adenosine-5′-monophosphate/adenosine deaminase family and the lactate/malate dehydrogenase family, in the former case comparing the predictions against a gold standard set of published functional characterizations. Given function annotations for 3% of the proteins in the deaminase family, SIFTER achieves 96% accuracy in predicting molecular function for experimentally characterized proteins as reported in the literature. The accuracy of SIFTER on this dataset is a significant improvement over other currently available methods such as BLAST (75%), GeneQuiz (64%), GOtcha (89%), and Orthostrapper (11%). We also experimentally characterized the adenosine deaminase from Plasmodium falciparum, confirming SIFTER's prediction. The results illustrate the predictive power of exploiting a statistical model of function evolution in phylogenomic problems. A software implementation of SIFTER is available from the authors.

For those who don't speak "science lingo" what is this really saying? :shrug:

"SIFTER"....what an apt description of something to use to "INFER" "EVOLUTIARY RELATIONSHIPS".
What else is it going to do? :facepalm: Inference is not fact.

You must explain these things in the language of the common people otherwise it's all just jargon. It proves nothing but that science can dazzle us with language, rather than real provable facts about the big issues.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
I'm sorry, but that is downright hilarious. I am sure others will see the humor in your use of the word "pontificate"....
.....and in your attempt to quote that particular scripture.....
SEVeyesC08_th.gif
That's your hubris speaking, nothing more.
No one is saying that science hasn't contributed much in our understanding of the natural world. When it looks at the here and now, it is dealing with the real world as it is. Marvelous things have been studied and we all benefit from their amazing discoveries. But when science goes into unchartered territory, into the distant past, with a broken compass, its 'due north' is actually pointing 'due south'. With that kind of perspective, how could it ever reach proper conclusions?
How would you know, you don't know how to read the compass (to use your analogy).
If the first premise is flawed, everything you build on it will be flawed as well. This is what I see.....you can see whatever way you wish.
But all that has been shown to be flawed are your mistaken and unsupported claims.
Another hilarious cover up. "Respectful science speak" or the language of "I don't know, so I'll fudge it until I can think up a better explanation". It is a ruse to cover up the fact that you have no real facts. You have manufactured facts....but nothing you can actually prove. Why is that so hard to admit? I think we know.
You don't even speak the language, you have no way to judge.
If they have been "shown"...then show them to us. We know that negative mutations have a way of eliminating themselves, but where can we see positive mutations being demonstrated? If all science can come up with are four good mutations that have not spread into the general community, then I think we can see how many straws you guys try to grasp in your attempt to sound "scientific".
Where are all these supposedly beneficial mutations? They are assumed, not proven to have ever existed.
Every allele in your body is the net result of a series of beneficial mutations, that's way more than just the 38,000 to 50,000 alleles currently in your body, the simplest know organisms have about 1000 alleles, that means, at a bare minimum (assuming that individuals single point mutations were in all cases totally responsible for the change) that there were 37,000 such beneficial mutations.
What is the "goo to you" process and how are positive gene mutations demonstrated in this?
You'll have to be more specific about this point.
See above.
Another statement that brings a smile.....others will know why.
While you smile, most everyone else is laughing at you.
So ner nerny ner ner....
bleh1

Your claim is ridiculous. Evolution is not built on cholesterol levels, bone density in one specific family in one isolated location, resistance to malaria, or the ability to see enhanced color. Try again.
4fvgdaq_th.gif
That was not the question, the claim you made was exposed as horse puckey. Here, have a another smile on me whilst further cementing the surety of you ignorance or lies: I showed that your claim, "... they are just an assumption" is, as usual, demonstrably false, just more of your usual jabber that does not hold up to minor scrutiny. This is also a clear demonstration of your typical tactics, you never admit that you are wrong, that you have misstated, try to shift the attention to something else pretending that your ignorance or lie (I'll be generous, take your pick) were not exposed.

Evolution is, in fact, built on just those sorts of changes. If, over time, they provide sufficient advantage they are fixed in the genome and become part of the standard equipment.
You have no proof....that is what you evolutionists keep telling me....so where does that leave you?

Your elaborate castle is built on sand IMO.....
palm
We all know that and we all know that you bring no expertise to bear to evidence any value to your opinion.
Those images connect straight to the brain via a different set of wiring....the wiring was designed to transmit those images at a level we can more easily understand. When you have complex speech that not everyone understands, it is easy to get away with so much....as we have seen.
I am happy to agree with the idea that your thought process are the result of a different wiring job.
The watch has a designer and maker and is replicated by a largely mechanical process......the tiger is self replicating.....but it has always been a tiger. The cat family has much variety in size, shape, color and habitats....but they are all felines and all reproduce "according to their kind". It is an assumption they have a common ancestor....not a fact. Science has no way of knowing that any member of the cat family was a common ancestor of the present species. They cannot prove that all these varieties were not individually created to be just as they are. They cannot prove that early cats were not part of the yame process. Its all in the interpretation of the "evidence".
Here's where your wiring goes awry: "but it has always been a tiger." There is plenty of evidence that you are wrong and none that you are right.
You read what you want to read and see what you want to see.....so do we all. Don't pretend that you have proof for any of your claims when we all know that you don't. All you have is science's reputation to back up your story....but what if science's reputation was shown to be undeserved and unreliable....a sham built on unsubstantiated fake evidence? That would be a great blow to people like you wouldn't it?
unsure
You have a lot to lose in this argument.
Proof, no. You have no proof either. But when it comes to evidence ... I have it all and you have none.
If you understand that the human immune system is designed to keep out all invaders, then it should work at peak capacity to prevent illnesses of any sort from even beginning. What humans have done to contaminate the environment (largely thanks to science) has happened only in the last 100 hundred years that science has been experimenting with its capacity to destroy the planet one way or another. People have been getting sick, getting old and dying since they were created.
You likely do not realize that actual and potential life span and actual and potential length of fertility are both subject to the evolutionary processes that mold each species as well as to environmental processes.
Science has also discovered in this last 100 years that there is no discernible reason for the aging process in humans. Theoretically, human cell reproduction and replacement should continue on indefinitely, but for some inexplicable reason, it stops doing its job and we begin to age and eventually die.
Once again you have no idea of what you are bloviating about.

There are several hypothesis:

1. Genes determine termine how long we live. We have a gene or some genes that tell our body how long it will live. If you could change that particular gene, we could live longer.

2. Over time, our body and our DNA get damaged until we can no longer function properly. How long we last is really just a consequence of small changes in our DNA. These changes add up until the total amount of damage is too much to bear and we die.

3. Mitochondrial DNA plays a major role in aging. As mtDNA becomes more and more damaged, the mitochondria cannot produce energy as well and become dysfunctional.

4. Cells can divide only a certain number of times because telomeres that get shorter with each division. When they run out, the cell dies.
Science can tell us 'how' the process works...but not 'why' cell replacement slows down and eventually ceases.
Above I discussed the "how," but the "why" is far simpler. There is an optimal life and fertility span that maximizes genetic representation in succeeding generations. That's plain old simple Darwinian evolution,
The Bible explains why. It also explains why we have a collective desire to go on living, despite the fact that we know death is inevitable....and why age is a state of body, not necessarily a state of mind.
There are libraries full of papers that clearly falsify your claims.
The 'character assassination' is not 'genocidal' just because someone puts science under its own microscope. You just don't want to face what has been exposed.
Your character assasination of all of science can hardly be described otherwise.

From a practical perspective there is nothing better that exposing errors, but there is nothing worse than wasting everyone's time with simply falsified and thus trivial claims.
That science is questioned at all is an affront to people like you. As we see from your avatar, accolades from others in your community are very important for your status in it. Your accumulated knowledge, if it is built on a false premise to begin with, is worth what then? Not much as far as I can see. It is simply error built on error.
Actually criticism from my community is way more important to me that accolades. That's how I refine my conclusions. You don't understand this and interpret everything through your myopia and the rather narrow window that you view the world through, and you wrongly assume that everyone else is motivated by the same things you are.
A magnificent house of cards.....but I believe its collapse is inevitable.
sos
Falling at the feet of science is the worshipping of human intellect, which the Creator will soon show you has led you all willingly down the wrong path. It is a futile exercise trying to show egos a simple truth, so I will just expose the weak foundation upon which evolution is built and allow the readers here to make up their own minds.
In almost 4,500 posts you have failed, utterly, to expose anything save your ignorance, which you strive to brag about. Enough is enough.
 
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Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Your link here does not work without a password....try quoting it.

Suffice it to say that if we share DNA with fruit flies and bananas, we are not going to come to any major conclusions about our own genetics from science any time soon. Their findings will always agree with their theory. Funny that. :confused:



Let me quote the "Abstract" in the introduction to this one.....

Abstract
We present a statistical graphical model to infer specific molecular function for unannotated protein sequences using homology. Based on phylogenomic principles, SIFTER (Statistical Inference of Function Through Evolutionary Relationships) accurately predicts molecular function for members of a protein family given a reconciled phylogeny and available function annotations, even when the data are sparse or noisy. Our method produced specific and consistent molecular function predictions across 100 Pfam families in comparison to the Gene Ontology annotation database, BLAST, GOtcha, and Orthostrapper. We performed a more detailed exploration of functional predictions on the adenosine-5′-monophosphate/adenosine deaminase family and the lactate/malate dehydrogenase family, in the former case comparing the predictions against a gold standard set of published functional characterizations. Given function annotations for 3% of the proteins in the deaminase family, SIFTER achieves 96% accuracy in predicting molecular function for experimentally characterized proteins as reported in the literature. The accuracy of SIFTER on this dataset is a significant improvement over other currently available methods such as BLAST (75%), GeneQuiz (64%), GOtcha (89%), and Orthostrapper (11%). We also experimentally characterized the adenosine deaminase from Plasmodium falciparum, confirming SIFTER's prediction. The results illustrate the predictive power of exploiting a statistical model of function evolution in phylogenomic problems. A software implementation of SIFTER is available from the authors.

For those who don't speak "science lingo" what is this really saying? :shrug:

"SIFTER"....what an apt description of something to use to "INFER" "EVOLUTIARY RELATIONSHIPS".
What else is it going to do? :facepalm: Inference is not fact.

You must explain these things in the language of the common people otherwise it's all just jargon. It proves nothing but that science can dazzle us with language, rather than real provable facts about the big issues.
Or perhaps it means that if you are unable to learn the basic terms of any subject, you'll be likewise unable to understand anything of what it's about.

The plain fact of the matter is, there are thousands of areas of specialized knowledge in which, if you haven't got at least a few of the basics, you are going to understand nothing.

Now if, as you seem to think, the fact that you don't understand (because you've never tried to learn the language) means that it's obviously wrong, then I guess you will have to conclude that no, we never did conquer smallpox, because you don't understand the language in which that feat was accomplished.

Yet.....where are all the smallpox cases hiding, then?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
If you don’t think comparative genomics (“a field of biological research in which the genomic features of different organisms are compared. The genomic features may include the DNA sequence, genes, gene order, regulatory sequences, and other genomic structural landmarks”) presents compelling evidence for common ancestry, does that also mean you believe that you could not trace your own ancestry back through time?

I can and have traced my ancestry back, but it ends when written records began in the part of the world where my DNA is traced back to.

It cannot be traced back to apes or fruit flies or any other creature that is not human. That is evolution's fantasy. "Common ancestors" are a figment of evolution's imagination. There is no proof at all that any creature diverged from a common ancestor. It is stated like a fact....but it isn't anything more than an unproven suggestion.

Well this Creator has apparently decided to create each individual organism in such a way that it appears that they are all related to varying degrees, depending on what time they came into existence on our planet. In other words, your Creator designed life with the appearance of evolution built into it. Is that Creator trying to deceive us or something? I don’t get it.

Either that, or his adversary has planted ideas in the heads of the godless to influence the masses?
The power of suggestion is very strong....as the advertising industry knows only too well. Not only what is said, but the way it is said and who says it has an even greater impact. People can be reading or listening to utter fiction and not be aware of it. Its up to us to do our homework.

Shared DNA shows relatedness. Like how you share 50% DNA with your parents, 25% with your grandparents, 12.5% with your cousins, and less and as relatives become more distant. How do you square this fact of reality with your views?

What percentage of our DNA is shared with things that are not human? If we had one Creator who used the same genetic material to fashion all living things, then that would also explain any similarities. Humans are at the end of that creative process. We are made with the same stuff as all other living creatures, but only humans were endowed with unique characteristics. This is what separates us from all other lifeforms....It's not our similarities that are at issue here....it is our differences. These differences are not explainable by mindless evolution. The differences go way beyond the capability of 'natural selection' to explain. I have touched on them already.

Could you elaborate on what you think this has to do with comparative genomics and other evidences for evolution?

It illustrates the difference between what science claims to know and what it can actually achieve in the real world with that knowledge. It demonstrates that what appears to be a good idea can translate into a real life nightmare.
If science can claim to know so much about genetics, and yet be so slow to implement that knowledge in helping people rather than harming them and the environment in their quest for recognition and financial reward.....then I guess it can boast about its achievements.

Well then, you’d better get to work coming up with some studies where you can demonstrate the wonders of the plant based medicines you speak of. It is unethical and dangerous for doctors to prescribe meds that have not been properly vetted.

The results of many trials from all over the world are already available. Do the research. Israel is actually among the countries that are leading the way in this research. The one plant that could remedy a plethora of illnesses has been completely demonized by the pharmaceutical industry, but this "dangerous" drug has never had a single death by overdose in recorded history. It will just put their expensive drug production out of business. Science is colluding with big business on this issue...."the love of money is the root of all evil".......it is true.

Humans are implicated in our problems. Science is a tool.

A axe can be a tool too....but it can be a very effective weapon as well....science can help and it can also cause a catastrophe.....by the same use of intelligence.

They are seeing what is there. You are denying that it is there.

I am not denying anything real.....I am denying he fiction that science is producing to prop up an unprovable theory. What is "there" is an illusion.

It’s evident in the fact that you keep trying to deflect away from the topic at hand and by refusing to draw logical conclusions about obvious relatedness.

The "obvious relatedness" is viewed from an entirely different perspective in my case. The logical conclusions I draw, do not permit me to dismiss what my mind and heart is taught by creation itself.
When I see something beautifully designed with obvious purpose, I do not automatically assume that it designed itself, completely undirected. I see purpose and planning which involves intelligence.
Accidents of nature are not planned....they are flukes. How many flukes are too many to be credible?

So you don’t think say, your DNA would show that you are more closely related to your mother than you are to me?

I know how genetics works and of course we see similar gene sequences in our relatives.....but this does not explain why humans, who were last to appear of the world scene, could "evolve" more rapidly that creatures who are millions of years older. What accounts for this incredibly rapid advancement and the fact that lower creatures who are supposed to be our ancestors are still the same as they were thousands or even millions of years ago?

Well like I keep saying, go ahead and follow your own advice and prove it. Science hasn’t run into any evidence that backs up your assertions and so it doesn’t accept them as factually accurate information.

Only one of us is claiming to have a belief system. I cannot prove my beliefs beyond pointing out their validity to me on an intellectual and spiritual level. You on the other hand claim to have something beyond a belief system....something evidentially based that claims to be fact. It is up to the ones claiming to have the facts to produce them. I haven't seen any substantiated facts yet.

Is the Bible really that unconvincing that I have to already believe in it for it to make any sense?

That’s a rhetorical question anyway, because I have read it. And as I told you once before, it’s one of the reasons I am an atheist. Because I don’t find it special or especially convincing or believable or logically consistent.

Then that is proof that the Bible is a closed book to those with a closed heart. If you are looking for a way for God to disappear, he will allow you to find as many ways as you like. He doesn't need us....we need him.

evolution is not a belief system. It’s a description of processes found in nature. In this case, it’s about the overwhelming evidence that makes it impossible for me not to accept the fact that evolution occurs. You even acknowledge as much, you just choose to call it adaptation instead.

LOL "overwhelming" is a word they like to use......it implies that there is too much evidence to even bother looking through it all.....or they are hoping that you won't. Its a mountain of suggestion, which doesn't amount to a molehill of anything factual.

there is overwhelming evidence demonstrating that biological organisms evolve over time. Yet you reject evolution while accepting the others. Again, I don’t see how your position makes any sense unless you’re forced to reject evolution based on preconceived religious beliefs.

What organisms can do is adapt. No one can dispute that. What can be disputed is that this process goes beyond what can be duplicated in a lab. No one really knows anything beyond what they can test. There is no scientific test that can tell us exactly what happened before recorded history. Its guesswork.

You’ve helped to demonstrate the very real fact that evolution is demonstrable while creationism is not. When you’ve presented evidence for the existence of your god, please be sure to let us know

I believe that the evidence will be presented soon enough.....and it will be irrefutable, I can assure you.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Predictions? Science has a crystal ball now does it?

The prophecies of science far outperform those of the Christian Bible.

If the prediction is interpreted in the same way as the evidence, then of course its going to turn out to be exactly as they predicted.

No, the prediction is confirmed or disconfirmed by the evidence that follows it. If I predict that Bob will arrive between noon and 1PM, if he walks in the door at 12;30, the prediction is confirmed, If he arrives at 11:30, the prediction was falsified. It's that simple.

Who is going to be game to falsify evidence in an atmosphere where ridicule and loss of credibility in the scientific community are the logical consequences?

Any scientist who wants to make a name for himself. Also, any creationist that can.

It is hardly reasonable to validate a theory that makes God redundant and expect that he is going to love you for it.

It's hardly reasonable to love a god that gives man reason, plants the earth and the genes with evidence for evolution, and then punishes man for applying that reasoning ability to that evidence and comes to the conclusion that the tree of life appears to have evolved from an ancient common ancestor. Such a god is not your friend.

I am saying that a barrier already exists. Sterility results when even closely related species interbreed.

Wrong barrier. We're looking for a barrier between what you call micro- and macroevolution, a process that occurs as members of the same species mate and produce fertile offspring - not a barrier between different species producing fertile offspring. That one is granted.

I don't want speculation, I want to see with my own eyes that science is correct......no "might haves" or "could haves"......I would like to see solid, substantiated evidence.

But only for science, right? That's not your standard for belief with religion, yet you demand it of the competition.

I have a belief system and science claims NOT to. The one who is claiming NOT to be a belief system, better be able to back up what it says with proof......or it is just another belief system requiring faith like ours.

Science does not claim to have no belief system. Scientists and philosophers of science can tell you what it is, as can many posters here. Words like skepticism and empiricism represent some core beliefs in science. Reproducibility is good, too.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
As for predictions, yes, science makes them on the basis of a theory and they can be verified. Please look up the finding of Tiktaalik, and refer to @Jose Fly's latest post below.

This again....? Crumbs......I though we had put Tiktaalik to bed long ago.

"What has the head of a crocodile and the gills of a fish?......

Tiktaalik, of course. Pronounced tik-TAA-lik, this 375 million year old fossil splashed across headlines as soon as its discovery was announced in April of 2006. Unearthed in Arctic Canada by a team of researchers led by Neil Shubin, Edward Daeschler, and Farish Jenkins, Tiktaalik is technically a fish, complete with scales and gills but it has the flattened head of a crocodile and unusual fins. Its fins have thin ray bones for paddling like most fishes', but they also have sturdy interior bones that would have allowed Tiktaalik to prop itself up in shallow water and use its limbs for support as most four-legged animals do. Those fins and a suite of other characteristics set Tiktaalik apart as something special; it has a combination of features that show the evolutionary transition between swimming fish and their descendents, the four-legged vertebrates — a clade which includes amphibians, dinosaurs, birds, mammals, and of course, humans.

Tiktaalik provides clues about a key transition in the history of life. Now extinct, this organism was a close relative of one our own ancestors — the first vertebrate to evolve four limbs and crawl out onto dry land. The evolutionary tree below shows the relationship between Tiktaalik, other fish, and four-legged vertebrates.
In many news articles,
Tiktaalik was billed as "the missing link" between fish and land vertebrates — but that description is a bit misleading. First, Tiktaalik is more accurately described as a transitional form than a missing link. Transitional forms help show the evolutionary steps leading from one lineage to another by displaying characteristics of both the ancestral and the new lineage. These character suites help us understand the order in which the traits of the new lineage evolved and what functions they served as they evolved. Tiktaalik, for example, had fins with thin ray bones, scales, and gills like most fish. However, it also had the sturdy wrist bones, neck, shoulders, and thick ribs of a four-legged vertebrate. Tiktaalik was specialized for life in shallow water, propping itself up on the bottom and snapping up prey. The adaptations it had for this lifestyle ended up providing the stepping stones for vertebrates to climb onto dry land — but of course, Tiktaalik was not "aiming" to evolve features for land-living. Tiktaalik was simply well-adapted for its own lifestyle and later on, many of these features ended up being co-opted for a new terrestrial lifestyle."

https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/news/060501_tiktaalik

Hold the phone.....there is an update....!

"News update, June 2010

In 2010, scientists announced the discovery of fossil footprints that may call into question the timing of the evolution of four-legged vertebrates (i.e., tetrapods). Tiktaalik represents a close relative of the ancestor of tetrapods, and its fossils date to 375 million years ago. The first unambiguous fossils of tetrapod bones (e.g. Acanthostega) date to just after that time. These and many other lines of evidence support the idea that the first tetrapods evolved around then, probably between 385 and 391 million years ago. However, that date now seems less certain.

In January of this year, a group of Polish and Swedish paleontologists announced the discovery of nearly 400 million-year-old fossil footprints that seem to have belonged to a fully-formed tetrapod. If a full blown tetrapod was around 400 million years ago, the earliest tetrapods must have evolved long before then! Tiktaalik's fossils may be younger than the first tetrapods."

People are welcome to read the rest of that drivel and see what those of us not indoctrinated by the musings of science can see clearly. Spot the sweeping statements that assume that the readers already accepts everything said as if it were established fact. There is not a single solitary proven fact in any of that.

It reads like a bad novel with a very weak plot. If all science has to go on is looks....
what on earth did they make of this bloke......?

What has the body and tail of a beaver, the bill of a duck, webbed feet, lays eggs, and suckles its young?
What on earth were this guys ancestors?

th


Seriously, if you are going to present evidence, at least make it credible. :facepalm:
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
It's hardly reasonable to love a god that gives man reason, plants the earth and the genes with evidence for evolution, and then punishes man for applying that reasoning ability to that evidence and comes to the conclusion that the tree of life appears to have evolved from an ancient common ancestor. Such a god is not your friend.

Is it God who did that? Or was it man putting his own interpretation on what God created and when?

If man alone expresses a need to worship his Creator and man decides in his own wisdom that he is too smart to believe in a God he can't see or test, then you blame God for that too? He has left us all the evidence we need from what he has created. All we have to do is open our eyes.

The existence of 'common ancestors' is an invention of science. God already told you how he created the creatures on this earth.....not good enough for you lot....? :shrug: He told you about "the tree of life" but you guys wanted your own......seems as if you brought this whole fiasco on yourselves.

Wrong barrier. We're looking for a barrier between what you call micro- and macroevolution, a process that occurs as members of the same species mate and produce fertile offspring - not a barrier between different species producing fertile offspring. That one is granted.

Since science cannot produce any evidence at all for the claim that micro-evolution becomes macro-evolution given enough time, its up to science to prove that it ever happened. If you have only an assumption that something happened, then it is a belief, not a fact....so stop pretending that you have evidence when there is no real evidence. Own the fact that you can prove nothing.

But only for science, right? That's not your standard for belief with religion, yet you demand it of the competition.

I am the one with a belief system, based on faith and backed up by nature that amply testifies to a designer of amazing ingenuity and ability. Flukes don't design complex, interacting systems. Accidents rarely produce anything beneficial.

Science does not claim to have a belief system

That was my point. It claims to be able to prove that it teaches scientific facts....suggestions are not facts and you cannot make them into facts without proof....there is no proof.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
In almost 4,500 posts you have failed, utterly, to expose anything save your ignorance, which you strive to brag about. Enough is enough

Oh please....yes. I am sure we have all had enough of the pathetic replies from the scientists on this thread....cheap shots and name calling, ridicule and derision....Dawkins would be proud of you. :rolleyes:

All these replies and all these pages and you think its all because you evolutionists have provided adequate rebuttal for anything....? You can think that if you like, but a thread does not go on this long if there is no interest in the argument. What other thread on boring old evolution has this amount of traffic?
If I and others defending ID here had failed so miserably, the thread would have died a long time ago....but here we still are.

I'll leave you to ponder why you are still here....? :)
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What is the line that you're at between "could have" and "did?"

I'm on the could-have side of the line, that is, I'm agnostic on the matter. I do not claim to be able to prove the theory of evolution or to rule out the possibility of god. Either creation or abiogenesis followed by biological evolution could have occurred.

Given the evidence we currently possess, either naturalistic processes occurred to account for the tree of life, or an intelligent designer created the geological column, the biogeographic findings such ring species, and the morphologies, physiologies, biochemistries and genetics of all life into nested hierarchies to give the appearance that naturalistic explanations are correct.

But the two don't share equal status. The scientific theory is supported by evidence, makes predictions that have never been contradicted with evidence, offers a mechanism that is frankly impossible to stop (variation and natural selection are self-evidently present in our world), and has had technological applications that have improved the human condition. Creationism has no evidence, answers questions but explains nothing, and has generated no useful ideas. ID research has been sterile to date with regard to demonstrating intelligent design. All that can be said in its defense is the it is logically possible.

You said, "They may be barriers to pairs of organisms producing viable offspring but not to populations evolving." To me, it seems you're cleverly and clearly trying to mix the 2. As I said, there is nothing wrong with the "belief system" that it did.

I'm trying to separate the two. You offered barriers to successful reproduction as evidence that there are barriers to what creationists call macroevolution.

The scientific method performed by intelligent human beings is based on repeated observations and current truths. The current observations and current truths leave "barriers."

I don't know what kind of barrier you mean, but it sounds like you are saying that there are limits to what is presently known or what can be known. That is obviously correct in the first case, and probably correct in the second.

But that is not the alleged barrier dividing micro- and macroevolution.

I have no issues accepting these. I have showed you "current scientific facts" which you state don't exist or are not compelling" and then pursue with "could's."

I have said that you have offered no barrier to evolution of all life from a single common ancestor over deep time, and that therefore, this could have happened. You seem to find that position inadequate.

These barriers are known, and that has led to more "hypothesis'" as to how evolution COULD MAYBE continue as "believed" it did.

No known barrier to macroevolution exists. If it did, the theory would have been falsified by its demonstration.

Because the process of evolving life has allegedly been around for billions of years, does not automatically mean that it all happened the way it's "believed" to have.

Agreed. Deep time is a requirement for the degree of evolution that is proposed to have occurred, but by itself, does not establish the theory's empirical adequacy. That is, geologic time is a necessary but not sufficient condition for the theory to be correct. If the earth were 6000 years old, there would not have been enough time.

We are not much different, I'm with you... I don't rule out that it COULD maybe happen, and I can "believe" it happened but our difference is in refusal to acknowledge the current barrier truths and admit that it would be a "belief" system to think that it did.

I don't mind the use of the phrase "belief system" to refer to the collection of ideas underlying the theory. We believe that variation between individuals occurs. We believe that nature selects those that facilitate reproduction best. We believe that over time, this leads to speciation, etc.. We believe that this process accounts for both the diversity and commonality among all of the existing and extinct species.

It's been a nice discussion. Thanks.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
This is all you have Jose Fly :facepalm:......no sound argument to support your theory...just ridicule
I'll ask again, and I'm sure you'll ignore it again......how is it "ridicule" to repeat back to you what you told us? Specifically.....

So let's be clear here....

1) You are a Jehovah's Witness.
2) The Jehovah's Witnesses mandate that to be a member of their faith, one must believe in Biblical creation and reject evolutionary theory.
3) If a Jehovah's Witness deviated from that mandate and adopted any sort of pro-evolution stance, (according to your own words) that person's JW friends and family would "treat them like a piece of garbage" and that person would lose all meaning to their life.

Now, are you actually arguing that the above 3 items play no role at all in how you respond to the data people post to you? They play no role at all in the conclusions you reach on the subject?

I submit that they are the predominant factor in everything you think and say about this subject. Am I wrong?

I was just not swayed by anything science presented in this argument.
Just how meaningful do you think that is, given how you declared very early on in this thread that nothing science could present would ever lead you to change your mind?

I took your articles and dismantled them
Really? Do I need to re-post exactly what you did? How you ran away? Should we go there?
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Your link here does not work without a password....try quoting it.
It's not for you. I posted it for the other members here who will learn something from it, rather than do your little "I found a single word in the article that I can use as an excuse to wave the whole thing away".

For those who don't speak "science lingo" what is this really saying?
They took genetic sequences from various, diverse taxa, ran them through a model that's based on evolutionary relationships, and based on that were able to discern genetic function to a 96% degree of accuracy, a result that is far superior to previous models. That leads to the obvious question.....if evolutionary theory is completely wrong, how did it generate such accurate results?

"SIFTER"....what an apt description of something to use to "INFER" "EVOLUTIARY RELATIONSHIPS".
What else is it going to do? :facepalm: Inference is not fact.
*sigh*

So sad to see what your religion does to you. The inference is the genetic function, not the evolutionary relationships. SIFTER is an acronym for "Statistical Inference of Function Through Evolutionary Relationships".

You must explain these things in the language of the common people otherwise it's all just jargon. It proves nothing but that science can dazzle us with language, rather than real provable facts about the big issues.
I will say one thing.....the excuses you come up with to wave away inconvenient realty are amusing at times.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There is faith and belief in your position, it's okay that you're not aware of it. Faith and belief are emotionally offensive word to some.

Yes, I have beliefs, but to the best of my knowledge, they are all justified beliefs. Although some do, I don't use the word faith to refer to justified belief to avoid ambiguity. If I discover an unjustified belief, I see l justification for it, revise the belief to make it justified if possible, or throw it out.

It's OK that you weren't aware of that.

Faith is not an offensive word to me. It's a logical error.

I suppose it's true as you even just admitted that with faith all things are possible because they aren't shown to be impossible.

No, I said no such thing. What I say is that with faith, anything can be believed. I don't consider that a good thing, since any idea or its opposite can be believed by faith, and at least one of those ideas is wrong.

Incidentally, I recognize two kinds of possible. Some things are known to have occurred and could occur again. Other things are not known to have occurred, but cannot be declared impossible, but might in fact later be shown to be just that.

If I believed that it happened as suggested, I do not know that it happened, I believe that it happened. I'm not afraid to admit such. I don't mix my beliefs with facts and then act as a hypocrite pointing out others who believe differently than myself.

Some of my beliefs are considered facts by me and others. For example, I believe that the apparent motion of the sun through the sky is due to the rotation of the earth about its axis. Other beliefs are held less firmly and don't rise to the level of fact.

You've pointed out differences in our beliefs, as have I. I don't see hypocrisy in that. It's the basis of debate and dialectic - identifying different positions and arguing their relative merits and deficiencies.

My position is neutral, self-awareness. I won't condescend or pick on anyone for expressing their faith and beliefs in evolution theory or forms of intelligent design and/or both together while simultaneously expressing my own faith and beliefs. It is pure hypocrisy and dishonesty.

That's good of you. I try to do the same, but I suspect that you posted what you did because you disagree.

When dealing with faith based thinkers, simply disagreeing with what they consider sacred beliefs is often seen as a personal attack and elicits an angry, defensive answer. They'll see criticism of faith as condescension. Atheists are simply disliked by many theists. They've been indoctrinated to believe that we're evil, immoral, hate God, are trying to escape accountability so that we can sin, persecute them, and are smug and arrogant however we post.

I suspect that you feel that way about me to some degree, although I have only been respectful to you, not condescending or hypocritical. I can't think of another reason for you to have made the last two comments. But that's fine either way.

I enjoy attempting to point that out in others, because I once did the same thing.

Have a ball. I enjoy identifying logical errors in arguments.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Their findings will always agree with their theory. Funny that.

That's to be expected from a correct idea about physical reality. Right ideas are confirmed by the evidence.

Contrast this with creationism, which is never supported by evidence. That's characteristic of a wrong idea.

Inference is not fact.

Inference when done properly is a venerated logical process. Inferences are tested against reality to confirm or disconfirm them.

You must explain these things in the language of the common people otherwise it's all just jargon.

If you can't understand the science, you aren't qualified to judge it. Lack of understanding of the things like inference belies an incurious relationship with science and reason.

It proves nothing but that science can dazzle us with language, rather than real provable facts about the big issues.

Science dazzles us with its accomplishments, not its words. You don't have to understand any of it to benefit from its miracles as you are doing right now using a computer and the Internet, if necessary, using electric lighting and/or air conditioning, and polio and small pox free, telling us all how weak, dishonest, and impotent science is.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"Common ancestors" are a figment of evolution's imagination.

Prove it. If you cannot, according to your arguments, you must be wrong.

The power of suggestion is very strong....as the advertising industry knows only too well.

The church understands that as well, which is why it is so keen at getting access to young, suggestible minds that haven't learned to think critically yet.

What percentage of our DNA is shared with things that are not human? If we had one Creator who used the same genetic material to fashion all living things, then that would also explain any similarities.

Why would an omnipotent creator need to use DNA? A godless universe requires such a mechanism, but not an all-powerful god. One thing we see over and over is that if there multiple ways that the world could be if created and ruled by a god, but a much more limited number of possibilities if it were godless, and the latter is always the case, consilience starts to make the one position much more likely than the other. This is the basis for concluding tax fraud when the 21 mistakes on a tax form are all in the taxpayer's favor. An unguided process would be expected to yield both kinds of mistakes - some increasing the taxpayer's bill.

These differences are not explainable by mindless evolution.

Actually, they are.

The differences go way beyond the capability of 'natural selection' to explain.

Prove it. If you cannot, you must be wrong. Just assumptions and inference - garbage by your standards.

If science can claim to know so much about genetics, and yet be so slow to implement that knowledge in helping people rather than harming them and the environment in their quest for recognition and financial reward.....then I guess it can boast about its achievements.

Science is proceeding at breakneck speed. In the sixteenth century, it gave introduced us to modern astronomy. In the seventeenth century, it opened up the world of microbiology. In the eighteenth century, the sciences of geology and paleontology exploded. In the nineteenth century, Darwin's biology and the modern theory of electricity and electromagnetism were born. Heading into the 20th century, we received quantum theory, relativity theory, plate tectonics, avionics, space flight, and the Big Bang.

Christianity has given us what? Bats are birds, pi = 3, the earth is flat, immobile, orbited by the sun, and encased by a huge dome, insects have four legs, and leprosy can be treated with pigeon's blood.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
science can help and it can also cause a catastrophe

Science cannot cause a catastrophe. Religious people, however, can:
  • "We don't have to protect the environment, the Second Coming is at hand" - James Watt, Secretary of the Interior under Reagan (note his position and responsibilities)
  • "My point is, God's still up there. The arrogance of people to think that we, human beings, would be able to change what He is doing in the climate is to me outrageous." - Sen. Inhofe, R-Okla
  • "The Earth will end only when God declares it's time to be over. Man will not destroy this Earth. This Earth will not be destroyed by a flood. . . . I do believe God's word is infallible, unchanging, perfect." - Rep John Shimkus, R-Ill.
These are all dangerous ideas. They don't come from science. They come from the religious.

I am denying he fiction that science is producing to prop up an unprovable theory.

Still stuck on this - proving scientific theories? Do you not mind being so visibly unteachable? Aren't you concerned at all about your ethos in your effort to save souls? Appearing credible and competent is essential to being believed. If you have no interest in that - and it seems that you don't as often as you announce that you don't care what people think about you - then you can't mind being dismissed out of hand. A person who cannot learn such fundamental ideas need not be taken seriously about any of her scientific opinions.

Besides, your whole life and world view is centered around unprovable hypotheses. You don't have a legitimate objection to reject other ideas because they are unprovable. Empirical adequacy is sufficient to keep an idea and employ it. If an idea is useful at predicting outcomes, we keep it. We disregard the useless ideas.

but this does not explain why humans, who were last to appear of the world scene, could "evolve" more rapidly that creatures who are millions of years older.

Humans were not the last to appear on the world scene. Many new species have arrived since man did.

If you had a rudimentary understanding of the science, you would have your answers. We understand very well why the last common ancestor of man and the chimp was much more chimplike than manlike, and why one line evolved more than the other in the time since they separated. If you had any interest in knowing what you were talking about, you would have your answers.

What accounts for this incredibly rapid advancement and the fact that lower creatures who are supposed to be our ancestors are still the same as they were thousands or even millions of years ago?

Get a book and read it. The information is readily accessible to you. You may need to start with the basics.

I cannot prove my beliefs

Then they must be wrong according to you. This is your chief criticism of evolutionary science, which you then call ridiculous. If I wanted to complete the imitation, I'd throw the words fool and pathetic into my posts as well. Or maybe an, "Any idiot with an ounce of honesty or intelligence can see ..."
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Then that is proof that the Bible is a closed book to those with a closed heart.

Nah. The Bible is just another book. It should be read with an open, skeptical, critical mind like any other book not purporting to be fiction. The reason you claim that the Bible must be read differently than any other book is because it is not believable unless read with a faith based confirmation bias. Read any other way, it falls apart.

If you are looking for a way for God to disappear, he will allow you to find as many ways as you like.

How shrewd of this god that allegedly wants to be known, loved, believed, and worship to imitate nonexistence at every opportunity. In accordance with the tax fraud analogy, when there are multiple ways for reality to be with a creator and ruler god, but far fewer if there is no, and in every possible case, the findings are consistent with a godless universe, the case for godlessness grows just as the case for tax fraud does when every error is of the kind that a cheater would make.

This god also won't regrow amputated limbs, or interfere with free will, or answer prayer more in those praying than those who don't, or any other thing that a god could do if it existed.

This is true with the leprechauns as well. They're real, but stay invisible, affect nothing, leave no visible pots of gold - just as if they don't exist.

Sagan's dragon in his garage is equally shrewd. His characteristics are indistinguishable from a nonexistent dragon:

“A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage”

I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you’d want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

“Show me,” you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle–but no dragon.

“Where’s the dragon?” you ask.

“Oh, she’s right here,” I reply, waving vaguely. “I neglected to mention that she’s an invisible dragon.”

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon’s footprints.

“Good idea,” I say, “but this dragon floats in the air.”

Then you’ll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

“Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless.”

You’ll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

“Good idea, but she’s an incorporeal dragon and the paint won’t stick.” And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won’t work.

Now, what’s the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there’s no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists?

Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I’m asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.

LOL "overwhelming" is a word they like to use......it implies that there is too much evidence to even bother looking through it all.

Nope. It means that the evidence is extremely robust. Most of us have reviewed every category of supporting evidence. It's compelling if looked at open-mindedly.

What can be disputed is that this process goes beyond what can be duplicated in a lab.

Sure, you can dispute anything, but you'll need more than just to disagree and offer fallacious arguments and pretty pictures to be persuasive in the reason and evidence based world.

I believe that the evidence will be presented soon enough.....and it will be irrefutable, I can assure you.

Your value of your assurances depend on your ethos, which are the facts outside of your argument that affect how you are perceived, such as the perception whether the speaker or writer is knowledgeable about that which speaks, is fair, has any apparent unstated purpose, is polite, seems trustworthy - in short, whether his character, credibility, competence, and motivations suggest that he can be trusted to be making informed, ethical arguments.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If man alone expresses a need to worship his Creator and man decides in his own wisdom that he is too smart to believe in a God he can't see or test, then you blame God for that too?

No.

Read what you wrote again. People that don't believe in gods don't blame them for anything. I criticized the human invention of a particular god, one that cannot possibly exist, but would be monstrous if it did.

The existence of 'common ancestors' is an invention of science.

Yes, and quite a successful one.

God already told you how he created the creatures on this earth.

No, no god has told me anything. And back when I believed that one had, it didn't include an explanation of how that god did anything. How do you make a woman out of a rib or part a sea? We're left with the I Dream of Jeannie "mechanism" - clasp your hands together with your elbows up and arms horizontal, twitch your nose, and create a universe.

Isn't that how God allegedly made ducks and raccoons?

Since science cannot produce any evidence at all for the claim that micro-evolution becomes macro-evolution given enough time, its up to science to prove that it ever happened.

Nope again. Science has no burden of proof there. It is sufficient that it is possible and if true, would account for what we observe. If you want to claim that it is not possible, the burden of proof is yours.

stop pretending that you have evidence when there is no real evidence. Own the fact that you can prove nothing.

It's the faith based thinker that has no evidence, which is why faith is required.

That was my point. It claims to be able to prove that it teaches scientific facts....suggestions are not facts and you cannot make them into facts without proof....there is no proof.

I miswrote. I meant the opposite of what I posted, which I have since corrected. I meant to write, "Science does not claim NOT to have a belief system," including evolutionary science. I outlined some of those beliefs earlier. It has been a stunningly fecund belief system.

Science does teach facts. Evolution is a fact. And as I explained to another poster, I have no problem calling science a belief system.

All these replies and all these pages and you think its all because you evolutionists have provided adequate rebuttal for anything

No rebuttal is needed.

I'll leave you to ponder why you are still here....?

This is fun.
 
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