Just Accidental?

[ArtieE]

Wow! Thanks for admitting that!

A Freudian slip, maybe?

No, the ID web site says so.
Intelligent Design

 

[ArtieE]

So you believe that the design for a cell morphed into your grandparents, through millions of accidental mutations?

But you do not require proof to believe this, so is it just a matter of your personal preference?

No, it's just a matter of not believing that my great-great-great-grandparents many many generations back were designed and created by a god unless you can prove beyond reasonable doubt that they were.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

No, it's just a matter of not believing that my great-great-great-grandparents many many generations back were designed and created by a god unless you can prove beyond reasonable doubt that they were.

Likewise then, I simply don't believe my family came from a single cell through millions of fortunate accidents-

So I default to the alternative until you can prove beyond reasonable doubt that they did

 

[ArtieE]

Imagine a world where love was the dominant emotion and humans were perfectly balanced in their attitudes and conduct.....would you not like to live in such a world? That would mean no wars, no crime, racism or violence, no pollution, no domestic disputes, peace among humans and in the animal kingdom, and a perfect government to rule over us.....this is what the Creator promises.
Everything in me is attracted to that idea.

What are we supposed to do except going around loving each other?

 

[ArtieE]

Likewise then, I simply don't believe my family came from a single cell through millions of fortunate accidents-

So I default to the alternative until you can prove beyond reasonable doubt that they did

"The alternative"? As if there was only one.
Category:Creator gods - Wikipedia

 

[ArtieE]

Likewise then, I simply don't believe my family came from a single cell through millions of fortunate accidents-

And so to avoid believing that your great-great-great-grandparents many many generations back came naturally from their parents you invent a god?

 

[Guy Threepwood]

And so to avoid believing that your great-great-great-grandparents many many generations back came naturally from their parents you invent a god?

No, it's just a matter of what I don't believe, that their parents were single cells that morphed into humans by chance mutations.

Until you can prove this beyond doubt, then I'll be a Darwinist- almost, though we'd still have the problem of abiogenesis-

(so meanwhile I just default to the alternative, God)

 

[SkepticThinker]

I believe it operates exactly like a religion. It uses indoctrination from an early and impressionable age, and it relies on its 'gods' to supply information and ideas about many things.....it even has its temples where all go to worship science and seek to examine the miracles of nature....attributing all the glory to their science gods for making a Creator unnecessary.
Isn't "Mother Nature" wonderful?

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The good thing here is, that it doesn't matter what you believe. Science does not operate as a religion does. Demonstrably so. The fact that you seemingly refuse to take in any information about how scientific methodology works, doesn't change the fact that it does not operate in the way a religion does.

And I have to ask for something like the third time now, have you every actually been in a science classroom? There is no indoctrination. It sounds like you're confusing religion with science again.

And do you know how many times I have pointed out to you that it's about the EVIDENCE, not the individual beliefs of each scientist? Why are you still repeating that to me at this point?? I know it fits your narrative, but your narrative is not reflective of reality.

BTW, I never said anything about 'one man'. The generator of the world's evil is one entity, but he isn't a man....and he is supported by his minions. (not to be confused with "Despicable Me" characters)

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(If only they were that cute......)

Sure you did. And you went on about it, at length:

“But let me ask you about con artists and fake credentials. If a really good con man were to fabricate his credentials and masquerade as the genuine article, (in whatever role he was impersonating) he will have done his homework. Right?”


“He will present himself with confidence building trust with people in that field (be it the high flyers in the celebrity world or in science, medicine or even aviation.....they made a movie about that one) because he knows that his ruse is useless without collaborators (albeit unwittingly) His minions are what give him credibility.


There have been some amazingly good conmen throughout history who would never have gotten away with their masquerade if it wasn't for "who they knew" rather than who they actually were.”


“What if the seed of evolutionary thinking was actually implanted by a master con artist?”

Some of his minions are human, others are not.

What dictator could ever rule without his henchmen...and devotees?

I don’t believe in things for which there is no evidence. The Devil is one of them.

The Creator is the inventor of science....it forms the basis for the assembly of all matter in existence. You think that what exists is all the result of undirected chance, but no assembly of matter that produces mechanics, fails to have a mechanic. What mechanical thing on earth was the result of a chance meeting of molecules?

We are talking miracles here....but you just call them something else.

Men are the inventors of science. I can demonstrate that claim. Can you demonstrate yours? Or do you think you get a free pass while demanding everybody else has to prove their claims?

Your 'addressing' them accomplished what? Are they convincing anyone that wasn't already convinced? If any were impressed with what you produced as "evidence", I am sure that you were just preaching to the converted.

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My addressing your talking points demonstrated that they were erroneous or the result of a misunderstanding of science and the scientific method.

Addressing your belief that there is no evidence for “macroevolution” demonstrates that your assertion is incorrect, as said evidence does exist, some of which has been presented to you all over this thread (and others).

alt="" class=mceSmilie unselectable=on v:shapes="_x0000_i1028"> Tell me about it.....

I’m glad you agree that your talking points are stale.

That is because there is no evidence that does not rely on what science assumes, rather than what it can actually prove. If there was conclusive, fully substantiated evidence for either side of this issue, it would have been produced by now......so the one side making all the claims to have "evidence" hasn't produced any yet that were not suggestions masquerading as facts.

I’ve already demonstrated to you that the things you claim are based on “assumption” are actually based on rigorous study, analysis, observation and repeated testing. And yet you repeat the claims again.

The evidence has been produced, and continues to be produced. The mountains of evidence that support the theory of evolution from multiple fields of science are the reason that it is the best (and only) scientific explanation for the diversity of life on earth.

You claim not to have a belief system....

Everyone has a belief system. I haven’t claimed that.

.yet you cannot substantiate science's claims with anything more than supposition....this must be difficult for you guys because you are probably used to creationists crumbling at your feet.

I can clearly see what's crumbling.....and it isn't ID.

I have substantiated science’s claims many times over on this thread and others. Many other posters have as well, and much better than I have. You should pay attention for a change.


No, I’m used to creationists repeating stale, outdated talking points. That’s nothing new.

 

[ArtieE]

No, it's just a matter of what I don't believe, that their parents were single cells that morphed into humans by chance mutations.

Until you can prove this beyond doubt, then I'll be a Darwinist- almost, though we'd still have the problem of abiogenesis-

(so meanwhile I just default to the alternative, God)

Or any of the other alternative gods Category:Creator gods - Wikipedia or maybe Raëlism Raëlism - Wikipedia or what about these? Alternatives to evolution by natural selection - Wikipedia

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Or any of the other alternative gods Category:Creator gods - Wikipedia or maybe Raëlism Raëlism - Wikipedia or what about these? Alternatives to evolution by natural selection - Wikipedia

Well which is your most favorite version of evolution? punctuated equilibrium? gradualism? something else?

 

[Deeje]

Your creator isn't doing very well currently is he/she? Please don't try to blame it on those who have turned away from the creator.

My Creator is doing exactly what he said he would do. The time that is taken is totally within the timeframe specified in the Bible.
The Creator is not constrained by earth time, which is determined by a mere rotation of one planet. He exists in a realm where time is not measured as we understand it. In fact the Bible says that 'a thousand years is just like a day' to him.

There are reasons for all the things we see taking place right now, all foretold in scripture. If a person has no respect for scripture or its author, then it won't mean much. But for those who actually open their minds and hearts, the Bible becomes a deep well of information that can be accessed as easily as drawing up water.

We get answers by asking questions. But we have to ask the right people. Getting one side of a story never benefits anyone.

Of course we all want what you describe but why is a belief in god necessary for what you describe?

When you check out man's track record in ruling himself through various forms of governance, does that inspire you with confidence that we can ever solve our differences amicably among the nations? I have personally never seen the world in such political chaos as it is today. In nation after nation the citizens are protesting loudly that their faith in their rulers is disappearing. Anger is spilling over into the streets as corruption is exposed and vested interests are placed before the good of the people.

Those people want change......and the Bible says that a massive change will come......but the good result expected by what is proposed, will result in a loss of all freedom, unless you tow their very strict line. This will result in a massive revolt.....a time of trouble, the scale of which has never seen before and will never be seen again. (Matthew 24:21)

Have you not noticed that the police now look like combat squads fighting in a war? In every nation, we see this strong law enforcement seemingly replacing the friendly cop on the beat. This is what policing has become.....but most see the need to quell the current threats by such strong means. It is an indication of what is to come. I believe that I am seeing prophesy being fulfilled right before my eyes.

Humanists seek just a world but do it without the need for reference to a supreme being.

Do you see any progress being made by humanists, who no doubt have good motives, but who will never succeed in eradicating the hate that people harbor for their fellow man? These hatreds are deep seated and passed from one generation to the next....people are not born hating.

Those who are 'the voice of reason' can never out-shout the voices raised in pure hatred because of race or religion. The powers that be will endeavor to remove the one element that robs the world of peace, more than any other.....religion. But it will not get to the heart of the problem.....and that is the fact that humans ruling over other humans cannot escape the corruption that it naturally engenders. "Power corrupts" as we all know. But the "absolute power" that is coming will be more corrupt than any we have ever seen.

There is only one power that is incorruptible....the one who should have ruled us from the start...humans decided that they could do a better job....so God let them, to demonstrate the sad reality that they are hopeless at it. Look at the state of the world....he was right, as he always is. We just hope that those who care can see where this world is headed and take appropriate steps to come over to the side of the only power who can conquer them.....the rightful Sovereign of the Universe.

This is the Bible's message, but God will never force anyone to do anything against their will. This is what I sincerely believe.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Jesus said that in order to become a follower of his, we had to become as young children.

I don't see that as being a virtue.

What is there about children that makes them teachable? They don't have a lot of their own ideas to get in the way.

Perfect for indoctrinating. If your goal is to teach, however, one prefers more mature and better educated minds.

The educated have talked themselves out of belief in God

The rational skeptic needs a reason to believe.

Are you even typical of what the average person may come to think and feel once they have dispensed with God?

I'm not sure what you're asking, but I know first-hand how at least this one person came to feel and think since returning to atheism.

Can you show me any creature that is in the process of evolving....?

If you are talking about biological evolution, individual creatures don't evolve. Populations do, and across generations, not in the lifetime of any individual.

If we have 'mechanisms' that are taking place right now....who is the mechanic?

Nobody, as far as we know.

I have avoided many pitfalls in my life by simple observing the Bible's laws and principles.

The worst mistake I ever made was a decision based in faith. Life has been good since returning to secular humanism.

 

[Deeje]

As one who taught the subject for roughly 30 years, I never had any problems whatsoever getting loads of information on the various aspects of the ToE. Matter of fact, I had to streamline the info I gave my students because of time constraints. Speaking of which...

I taught an average of 4 sections of anthropology per year, with a rough average of 25 students per course, and I did this for about 30 years. At the very beginning and end of each course, I had students fill out confidential questionnaires, and one of the questions I asked was "Do you believe evolution happened?". I defined "evolution" for them as there being genetic changes that could lead to the formation of new species (kinds).

In defining "evolution", did you happen to mention that the "genetic changes" that were triggered by adaptive challenges were only ever observed within the one specific family under examination? The different species within those taxonomic families produced variety, not different species (kinds) altogether. This is crossing that blurred line between adaptation and macro-evolution. This is what science students are not told. The actual evidence is proof for that line, but science pretends that it isn't there....why? Because they can't (or don't want to) find it. Macro-evolution could not be promoted without that line being removed.

Can you give me clear examples where one kind of creature eventually morphed into another? After you provide the examples, could you then provide the clear unequivocal evidence linking them?

With the surveys at the beginning of the course, there was usually a relatively equal three-way split, with about 1/3 saying yes, 1/3 saying no, and 1/3 saying they didn't know. At the end of the course, the results were dramatically different, with only one person in all those years saying no. The "I don't know" group was almost nil.

So, either I'm maybe the greatest salesperson who ever walked this Earth (although the Donald might disagree) or that the massive information on evolution speaks for itself.

I have no doubt as to your teaching ability metis, but you were offering these students only what you yourself had accepted as truth. You must have presented your case well if your students accepted what you taught them without question. I cannot deny the massive amounts of information that exists, but if it is all really misinformation based on what science wants to believe, and backed up by their interpretation of evidence in favor of its theory, then it is a mountain of useless information IMO.

The Biblical equivalent to that kind of situation would perhaps be the Pharisees and what was taught in the schools of higher learning in Bible times. Jesus said....."Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·henʹna twice as much so as yourselves." (Matthew 23:15)

That is a pretty sobering thought, isn't it? A person could be so misled that they are headed on a sure course for death, then they pass on their views and opinions to others, but this will only mean death for all who found their view appealing. Do we have no concerns about that? What we teach then, had better be the truth.... The teacher has the greater accountability, don't you think?

As one who grew up in a church that taught that evolution of species didn't happen, including the fact that I had serious thoughts about going into the ministry, when I actually did the studying I found out what I eventually came to teach-- it has happened and continues to happen.

If "creationism" was the alternative to "macro-evolution" then the choice was between one imaginative fairy story and another. Churches who accept creationism are not doing their homework. Their faith is blind and is also leading them in the wrong direction. The scripture quoted above applies equally to them. The Bible and science are completely compatible. It isn't a choice between one or the other...those who think so are on the wrong track.

Just because scientists tell you that evolution is a foregone conclusion, or when creationists tell you that the earth and the universe were created in 7/24 hour days, doesn't mean that they can't be misled by the ones who influenced them. If the evidence for either side is as good as it gets, then a lot of people are placing their faith in people who haven't earned it. What if all their suppositions are dead wrong? Where does that leave any of them?

But if one doesn't study the massive amount of evidence, preferring instead to blindly believe their "religious" teachers instead of scientists who specialize in the various forms of evolution-related biology that are found in science, then they're pretty much stuck in a Dark Age mentality, and that's through their own choice! That's like deciding and saying "I choose to be ignorant".

And that applies equally to those who pursue science as blindly as others hang onto what they think the Bible says. We need to examine all sides to this story because it isn't just a "them and us" situation. Scientists can be just as blind as what they claim creation supporters are. Both need to step back and consider the possibility that they could both be wrong.

What science "knows" is brilliant in so many fields, but what it doesn't know, it fudges. What creationists believe about the age of the earth and how long the universe and all its earthly creatures have been around is equally unbelievable.

True science and the Bible can marry quite happily.....its the theoretical parts....the parts where science say "I think" rather than "I know", that are leading people down a wrong path......its a dead end.

There is only one road to life according to the Bible and "few" find it....because they are too busy arguing about who is right to see where each of them really are.

 

[Deeje]

Please everybody read post 4960 where I wrote: "For all evolutionists care the first cell could have been genetically engineered by aliens. They are only concerned with how it evolved. And I invite everybody reading this to check how many times this has been explained to Deeje earlier."

Is the problem that you do not think I understand?

I understand perfectly well ArtieE.....abiogensis is something to be avoided at all costs by evolutionists because if they actually have to admit that life was created, then they would still have to prove that it was only a single cell. Since science cannot prove that evolution of the 'macro' kind ever happened, its a bit of slippery slope isn't it?

Let's detract from any mention of it because it has nothing to do with evolution

right?.......if you don't know how life began, what is the point of arguing how it changed over time? The whole theory of evolution is designed to eliminate a Creator.....or else science might have to explain why we are here and if there is anything expected of us by the one who created us?

It would mean that scientists are not the smartest people in existence.....oh dear!

And here in this post she repeats the same nonsense again.

If it was nonsense, I wouldn't be repeating it....I know it makes you uncomfortable.....sorry about that.

 

[Deeje]

"According to a recent Pew Research Center report, 73 percent of American adults younger than 30 expressed some sort of belief in evolution, a jump from 61 percent in 2009, the first year in which the question was asked. The number who believed in purely secular evolution (that is, not directed by any divine power) jumped from 40 percent to a majority of 51 percent. In other words, if you ask a younger American how humans arose, you’re likely to get an answer that has nothing to do with God."
Evolution Is Finally Winning Out Over Creationism, Especially Among the Young

And this reinforces exactly what the Bible predicted centuries ago.....that the majority of those alive at the time of the end would perish because they are not only godless, but ungodly in their behavior, ignoring God's laws and doing whatever they wish. The world at this time is a cesspool of immorality and violence, at a time when we should be more civilized than ever.

It is my belief that when Christ comes to judge mankind, the majority will be considered as "goats" and consigned to eternal death because there is no place for the godless in the future planned by the Creator. This is the Bible's warning message but it will largely fall on deaf ears. We know why.

You see the numbers as meaning one thing....I see them as meaning something else entirely.

 

[Deeje]

No, I'm afraid you are again. You said and I quote:

"WHY?.......because Intelligent Design is what makes logical sense to a spiritually minded person looking at creation and knowing that blind chance could not have produced even a minute part of it.....and because our suggestions fit the data just as well as science's suggestions do.....and because it isn't useless....it give us a reason for our being and something to pin our faith and hopes on."

ID is a scientific theory and doesn't provide any "reason for our being and something to pin our faith and hopes on." That would be your belief in your god and your religion.

Do you see everything in such black and white terms? Intelligent Design means that there is an Intelligent Designer. Someone who plans and designs something usually has a good reason for doing so. If there is a purpose to our being and the Creator placed us here on planet Earth for a reason, then science has just cancelled itself out of existence because they are the ones claiming that there is no reason for us being here ...it's all one gigantic fluke.

I don't believe he left us here without instructions....and an explanation for a life that is alien to most of us.
If the things pertaining to this life were natural for us, then why do we recoil a it violence and murder...the death of loved ones especially when it is a premature loss....a child or a newborn? Why do we desire peace and happiness but seem unable to attain it?

Since creation is a religious idea, not a scientific one.....science assumes that it can ignore all other ideas about life on earth and carry on as if there is no one to answer to......but it doesn't make the Creator disappear just because they have no need of him. Perhaps they should be more concerned about him not needing them?

 

[Deeje]

OK, say all scientists believed in the existence of an Intelligent Designer. Then what? How to proceed from there?

If they acknowledged the existence of an Intelligent Creator, then they would also realize that he had a purpose to creation, and it would be up to them to find out what that purpose was, and fit themselves into it.

It would not be possible for them to procure this information by any means at their present level of knowledge, so they would have to rely on the Creator himself to supply that information.....which he already has in the Bible.

Would pride prevent them from taking any notice of that information, I wonder? Would they still seek to interpret the information in that book to fit their own view? Many in Christendom have done just that. So the dilemma continues for humankind, bent on pleasing themselves.
If you want God to disappear...he will.

 

[Altfish]

If you want God to disappear...he will.

Now you're talking

 

[Sapiens]

...
If you want God to disappear...he will.

One of the things that has always amazed me is how people can be taken in by a tale of a deity that plays hide and seek like a preschooler.

 

[Deeje]

One of the things that has always amazed me is how people can be taken in by a tale of a deity that plays hide and seek like a preschooler.

Which fairy tale would you like Sapiens....? The one where life just popped into existence one day for no apparent reason and then magically turned itself, undirected in to all the life forms that have ever existed on earth....? or the one where an Intelligent Life-form of immense power brought matter together and gave it life. Which of those two scenarios sounds "scientific" to you? Which of those actually agrees with what science already knows? That "all life comes from pre-existing life"....unless you believe in evolution of course....then you get a pass.