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Just Accidental?

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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think we figured out that the foundation of evolution is very shaky

The science of biology and Darwin's theory in particular are on firm a foundation as are all sciences and the other aspects of biology (genetics, ecology, microbiology, etc..)

if nothing in biology makes sense without it, heaven help all those biologists who support ID.

They have Christians promoting a religious social agenda underwriting their work, without which, they would have to find other work or go hungry. Neither government nor scientific research institutions want to put money into that research - only those hoping to find a god in a telescope or microscope.

Why? Because science is already looking to see what's out there and what knowledge can be acquired studying reality, and they have found no evidence for an intelligent designer. The ID people, who are only looking for one thing, can do no more.

They must all be complete morons in your learned eyes....

They're faith based thinkers trying to make a living.

....working for evil anti-evolution organizations, hell bent on proving that there must be intelligence behind creation

Have you read the Wedge Document? That is exactly the stated mission of the Discovery Institute.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There are also major differences between evolution and evolution "theory." One is useful and observed intelligently by the species experiencing evolution of life. One is useless.

I see that you liked my argument and try to co-opt it to your own purpose.

But you are no longer comparing competing hypotheses at this point, and both knowledge of the fact that evolution occurs as well as the scientific theory that explains how, unifies diverse observations under a single overarching theory, successfully predicted what could and could not be found for over 150 years, and has been used to make life better are far from useless.

Can you tell us why we should toss that out for its sterile alternative?

And even if evolutionary theory were useless, why would we embrace another useless hypothesis instead? Naturalistic and supernaturalistic hypothesis are each logically possible. Neither can be ruled in or out, so we must remain agnostic. There is no need to declare either correct. Just use whatever works. If neither works, you can't use either, and you needn't guess at one. If both work, use them both. If only one is fruitful, that's your go-to hypothesis.

Evolution "theory" and the speculations of what may or could have happened millions and billions of years ago does hinder actual sound research in medical discovery. It can and has also created disasters and undesired consequences using false dictonomy of different species and have used too many assumptions.

Evolutionary theory is responsible for no known disasters. If you disagree, please make the case. Please provide the disaster and how evolutionary theory was responsible for it. I saw where you tried to attribute some problem with treating infections to it, but I couldn't follow your argument. Evolutionary theory is helpful in that area. It explains the phenomenon of bacterial resistance to antibiotics and would predict that incomplete courses of antibiotics would promote drug resistance.

Speaking of bacteria, taking all of your antiobiotics is not a wise idea. Children and people of today are suffering immensely due to this error.

You're wrong here. Sapiens is correct. Incomplete treatment of an infection with an otherwise effective antibiotic renders the treatment ineffective and promotes the emergence of resistant strains.

Now just what constitutes an incomplete treatment isn't always known. An antibiotic that can eradicate an infection in three days for which a week's worth of antibiotics were prescribed will obviously do the job even if the treatment is discontinued half-way, but that is irrelevant to the main point.

Well yes, bacteria are intelligent, alive species that are trying to survive as well.

Bacteria are neither intelligent, nor trying to do anything.

If you're willing to use so diluted a definition of intelligence to include things that aren't even conscious, then you have no case for a conscious god being necessary to account for what is being called intelligent design.

Nothing in anything makes sense without intelligence and life.

It does to most of the scientific community as well as those trained in the sciences and critical thinking.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have heard that every living thing needs water. I think that would make eight characteristics of life.

That number is a little arbitrary. Homeostasis and repair, for example, could have been listed as separate items, as could adaptation and evolution, adaptation not meaning what the creationists mean, but includes things like tanning in the sun or growing an undercoat in the cold - changes within a single organism over a single lifetime. One could argue that the latter is not a criterion for life if it were known that some life does not adapt in any way.

Characteristics of life:

[1] active movement (may be subcellular only)
[2] obtain nutrients
[3] metabolize / channel and store energy / generate heat
[4] eliminate waste
[5] complex organization at different levels (organelles, organ systems)
[6] cellular
[7] organic (carbon based)
[8] water based
[9] growth / development
[10] reproduction / replication
[11] homeostasis / repair
[12] sensitive / responsive
[13] adapt / evolve / mutate
[14] similar biochemical composition (proteins, ATP, DNA, etc.)
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
that's the weakness of this forum. Creationists are permitted to come in here and lie as much as they want, but no one is allowed to call them on it.

I didn't know that it was a rule not call another poster's words a lie, but there is no need to do so (perhaps I should read the terms of service again). As I have explained in the past, I don't think they're lying in the sense that the are knowingly telling a falsehood or otherwise deliberately creating or allowing a misunderstanding for the purpose of deceiving. I assume that they all sincerely believe what they are saying and are trying to make reality conform to it, which they assume it does and must.

You and I get the opportunity to see how they defend their beliefs, which I find to be an invaluable portal into the world of faith based thought.

We also get to argue why and in what way we believe that they are wrong. That may be of no benefit to the creationists, but it can be to us. It is to me. My ideas about truth with regard to science have evolved here. I've also gotten the opportunity to develop new arguments against creationism and improve older ones.

I would call that a strength of this forum.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Still don't understand what you mean. If somebody plays 5 royal flushes in a row it could be chance and if somebody plays any other combination 5 times in a row it could be chance. And they could both be the result of cheating. Maybe on some other planet the rules are different and 5 royal flushes in a row means no prize and the other combination would mean you won the whole card game. But no cheating, just chance.

that's interesting, I've never come across anyone having trouble with that part.. maybe you are extremely trusting of gamblers!


so if you work in the fraud dept at a casino, and a guy sits down at 5 different tables and plays a royal flush at each one, you happily write that off to chance?! I don't think you'd keep your job very long!

But you tell me- how many times would it take before Artie's suspicion is finally aroused 100? 1000 times in a row??

it makes no difference to the math, because the odds of any specific combination of 5000 cards is similarly improbable. You suspect cheating at some point, not because the odds of this chance result are lower than any other, but that the odds of intelligent agency are higher for this particular result-

do you understand now?
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Yeah, I think we figured out that the foundation of evolution is very shaky.....and if nothing in biology makes sense without it, heaven help all those biologists who support ID. :) They must all be complete morons in your learned eyes....working for evil anti-evolution organizations, hell bent on proving that there must be intelligence behind creation because we're not seeing much of it from the evolutionists or from the interpretation of their mountains of evidence. :D
As reported by Newsweek: "By one count there are some 700 scientists with respectable academic credentials (out of a total of 480,000 U.S. earth and life scientists) who give credence to creation-science, the general theory that complex life forms did not evolve but appeared 'abruptly'."Martz & McDaniel 1987, p. 23

Wow ... that's powerful support, eh?
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Intelligent agencies do not need to be ruled out. Look at how much progress science has made without involving that idea. Like the germ theory of disease, the heliocentric theory, quantum theory, the Big Bang theory, plate tectonics, relativity theory, and multiple other scientific and technological achievements such as space travel, the polio and smallpox vaccines, automobiles, and real-time global telecommunications, evolutionary theory needs no god and has no god in it.

i wasn't aware that the invention of the automobile required belief in the flying spaghetti multiverse!

But arguably the greatest discovery of all time, absolutely did require skepticism of atheism. the name itself 'Big Bang' was a pejorative term used by atheists to mock what they saw as overt theistic implications.

So by their own argument, science would have progressed much faster had they all been working under a theistic assumption
their argument not mine remember. I don't think we should have any preconceptions either way- but if your're going to pick one, skepticism of atheism has the better track record.

The inherent conflict between science and atheism, is that atheism is obliged to always try to close the case on the simplest, most minimaistic, reductionist God refuting explanation possible.

e.g. static universes, classical physics, Darwinism.

while a skeptic has no fear of delving ever deeper into a reality that is far more sophisticated and interesting than steady state atheists could ever imagine



For starters, a multiverse that can generate countless copies of every type of possible universe would inevitably lead to universes like ours capable of generating stable galaxies of solar systems, life, and consciousness, and it would do so without requiring a conscious agent, making the hypothesis more parsimonious, i.e., preferred according to Occam's Razor: The simplest explanation that accounts for all observations is the preferred explanation.

So this infinite probability machine can create absolutely anything--- except God, which would defeat the entire purpose- and so there is a built in safety mechanism insuring this never happens?

yet it has already apparently created sentient creative beings, reverse engineering their own universe, and who, according to even many like Andre Linde- principle in modern inflationary theory, are entirely capable of producing their own one day.. ooops!

There you go with the 'simplest' explanation being the 'best'

As above 'the simplest explanation' gave us static universes, classical physics, phrenology, the simplest explanation is certainly always the most tempting, but nature shows little regard for Occam's razor does it? moreover it is obliged to disobey it.



Moreover, why would a god need to finely tune the physical constants in order for the universe to work unless that god was being restricted by laws that transcended it? How could such an entity be called a omnipotent if its choices were constrained to very narrow limits?

mathematics... the only restriction is pure logic


For that matter, what does a universe ruled by a creator god need laws at all? Planets could orbit their stars according to its will. Light could travel only so fast because this omnipotent god was propelling it that fast and no faster. It's a godless universe that requires laws in order to run unmonitored.

this software adheres to laws thus, by your rationale, it spontaneously wrote itself for no reason, no ID involved....


And you once again dodged answering why anybody should toss out an idea that works in favor of one that can't be used to inform choices. I assume that's because you have no answer. If that is not correct in this case, you probably ought to say why you don't offer a reason to replace what works with what doesn't.

Do you ever do that in your life - say divorce a wife with whom you are happy to replace her with someone that you will fight with, or quit a good paying job that is secure and makes you happy for a low paying one that is mind-numbing and soul-crushing and from which you are likely to be downsized out of?

likewise, why throw out my idea, which works great, in favor of yours, which is terrible- and until you can answer this, I win..


it's not much of an argument is it?


You're misstating my position. What works is the theory, not evolution, or as you call it, adaptation.

no, not the same thing:

car designs are adaptable, they come in different shapes and sizes and colors, so is almost any reasonably sophisticated product design, a radio has a capacity for adaption, it can pick up different stations in different places and reproduce them at different volumes

this does not mean that this is how teh radio was created, or that enough tweaking of the knobs/ adaptation parameters will eventually produce a CD player, , force the knobs too far and they simply break- exactly as we see in adaptable life also- this paradox is inherent to the nested information systems involved in each,

i.e. you can't use adaptation to build the same system of adaptation you are trying to explain!!

no more than we could explain gravity with classical physics, it's an insurmountable paradox doomed to failure

the math is objective here- no matter what seems intuitive to you or I or Occam


The theory directs us in ways that have improved the human condition.

I think that may be a direct quote from Adolf Hitler?

not comparing you, but it has been used to justify eugenics on massive scales, not sure there is anything on the other side that begins to compensate for those horrors
 
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ArtieE

Well-Known Member
that's interesting, I've never come across anyone having trouble with that part.. maybe you are extremely trusting of gamblers!


so if you work in the fraud dept at a casino, and a guy sits down at 5 different tables and plays a royal flush at each one, you happily write that off to chance?! I don't think you'd keep your job very long!

But you tell me- how many times would it take before Artie's suspicion is finally aroused 100? 1000 times in a row??

it makes no difference to the math, because the odds of any specific combination of 5000 cards is similarly improbable. You suspect cheating at some point, not because the odds of this chance result are lower than any other, but that the odds of intelligent agency are higher for this particular result-

do you understand now?
I still don't get the point. 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets full of casinos with people playing cards since the dawn of time and some person gets a winning combination for his particular casino five times in a row? What's the big deal?
 
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ArtieE

Well-Known Member
The inherent conflict between science and atheism, is that atheism is obliged to always try to close the case on the simplest, most minimaistic, reductionist God refuting explanation possible.
I see your point. Science would be so much better off if seismologists allowed for the existence and influence of Poseidon and meteorologists allowed for the existence and influence of Thor or cosmologists allowed for the existence and influence of some creator god of which there are over a hundred on Wikipedia.
So this infinite probability machine can create absolutely anything--- except God, which would defeat the entire purpose- and so there is a built in safety mechanism insuring this never happens?
This is a very good point actually. There could be any number of universes with any number of gods in them, including all the gods men have ever believed in. For example the Bible mentions loads of gods.
 

Profound Realization

Active Member
I see that you liked my argument and try to co-opt it to your own purpose.

But you are no longer comparing competing hypotheses at this point, and both knowledge of the fact that evolution occurs as well as the scientific theory that explains how, unifies diverse observations under a single overarching theory, successfully predicted what could and could not be found for over 150 years, and has been used to make life better are far from useless.

Can you tell us why we should toss that out for its sterile alternative?

And even if evolutionary theory were useless, why would we embrace another useless hypothesis instead? Naturalistic and supernaturalistic hypothesis are each logically possible. Neither can be ruled in or out, so we must remain agnostic. There is no need to declare either correct. Just use whatever works. If neither works, you can't use either, and you needn't guess at one. If both work, use them both. If only one is fruitful, that's your go-to hypothesis.



Evolutionary theory is responsible for no known disasters. If you disagree, please make the case. Please provide the disaster and how evolutionary theory was responsible for it. I saw where you tried to attribute some problem with treating infections to it, but I couldn't follow your argument. Evolutionary theory is helpful in that area. It explains the phenomenon of bacterial resistance to antibiotics and would predict that incomplete courses of antibiotics would promote drug resistance.



You're wrong here. Sapiens is correct. Incomplete treatment of an infection with an otherwise effective antibiotic renders the treatment ineffective and promotes the emergence of resistant strains.

Now just what constitutes an incomplete treatment isn't always known. An antibiotic that can eradicate an infection in three days for which a week's worth of antibiotics were prescribed will obviously do the job even if the treatment is discontinued half-way, but that is irrelevant to the main point.



Bacteria are neither intelligent, nor trying to do anything.

If you're willing to use so diluted a definition of intelligence to include things that aren't even conscious, then you have no case for a conscious god being necessary to account for what is being called intelligent design.



It does to most of the scientific community as well as those trained in the sciences and critical thinking.

Focus on evolution theory. I know it's difficult to restrain from bringing up intelligent design but that wasn't even mentioned.
Any value would be with the practical, not explanatory beliefs and assumptions of what may or could have occurred billions and millions of years ago. You and I, and others were born without the need for an explanation from evolution theory. Life has evolved and carried on just fine without the need for an explanation or artificial garbage invoked in nature by intelligent beings who tend to view themselves as more intelligent and superior than nature all while claiming to know nature.

Maybe we can turn this into a different question, why are we all on this forum arguing, debating, reasoning, some even getting defensive and condescending over a petty theory? Why is it so important? Is there meaning to discovering our true nature?

Lack of understanding has caused many disasters. As Kirschner said. Many have also predicted that misuse and overuse and misunderstanding would lead to bacteria developing resistance. This has nothing to do with the explanation of evolution theory. It was never understood by most that this would happen. In hindsight, now that people are aware of this, they falsely credit evolution theory for knowing this. If it were now, and antiobiotics were just hitting the market, and someone said that they will eventually cause harm and disaster, and create resistant bacteria and mutated diseases... that someone would be called a pseudoscientific conspiracy theorist for using their intuitive intelligence that has nothing to do with evolution theory. If the evolution of bacteria is so well known and factual, sitting on mountains of evidence... why does Kirschner insist we lack understanding of it, and why would we go back to a theory that was wrong and is wrong in the first place regarding bacteria?

When there is false dichotomy and assumptions, disasters happen. Why animal studies are often poor predictors of human reactions to exposure

Also, I don't think that I'm wrong. https://www.focusforhealth.org/antibiotics-both-good-and-bad/
If this doesn't satisfy, I'd be happy to provide more.

Again, a lack of understanding for bacteria. They most certainly are intelligent and trying to survive. If you want to discredit them as accidental, non-intelligent, purposeless... by all means you're free to do so. Stick to what was presented, a conscious god was never mentioned.
 
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Profound Realization

Active Member
Advances to society because of the Theory of Evolution

1. Bioinformatics, a multi-billion-dollar industry, consists largely of the comparison of genetic sequences. Descent with modification is one of its most basic assumptions.

2. Diseases and pests evolve resistance to the drugs and pesticides we use against them. Evolutionary theory is used in the field of resistance management in both medicine and agriculture (Bull and Wichman 2001).

3. Evolutionary theory is used to manage fisheries for greater yields (Conover and Munch 2002).

4. Artificial selection has been used since prehistory, but it has become much more efficient with the addition of quantitative trait locus mapping.

5. Knowledge of the evolution of parasite virulence in human populations can help guide public health policy (Galvani 2003).

6. Sex allocation theory, based on evolution theory, was used to predict conditions under which the highly endangered kakapo bird would produce more female offspring, which retrieved it from the brink of extinction (Sutherland 2002).

7. Tracing genes of known function and comparing how they are related to unknown genes helps one to predict unknown gene function, which is foundational for drug discovery (Branca 2002; Eisen and Wu 2002; Searls 2003).

8. Phylogenetic analysis is a standard part of epidemiology, since it allows the identification of disease reservoirs and sometimes the tracking of step-by-step transmission of disease. For example, phylogenetic analysis confirmed that a Florida dentist was infecting his patients with HIV, that HIV-1 and HIV-2 were transmitted to humans from chimpanzees and mangabey monkeys in the twentieth century, and, when polio was being eradicated from the Americas, that new cases were not coming from hidden reservoirs (Bull and Wichman 2001). It was used in 2002 to help convict a man of intentionally infecting someone with HIV (Vogel 1998). The same principle can be used to trace the source of bioweapons (Cummings and Relman 2002).

9. Phylogenetic analysis to track the diversity of a pathogen can be used to select an appropriate vaccine for a particular region (Gaschen et al. 2002).

10. Ribotyping is a technique for identifying an organism or at least finding its closest known relative by mapping its ribosomal RNA onto the tree of life. It can be used even when the organisms cannot be cultured or recognized by other methods. Ribotyping and other genotyping methods have been used to find previously unknown infectious agents of human disease (Bull and Wichman 2001; Relman 1999).

11. Phylogenetic analysis helps in determining protein folds, since proteins diverging from a common ancestor tend to conserve their folds (Benner 2001).​

Directed evolution allows the "breeding" of molecules or molecular pathways to create or enhance products, including:

12. enzymes (Arnold 2001)

13. pigments (Arnold 2001)

14. antibiotics

15. flavors

16. biopolymers

17. bacterial strains to decompose hazardous materials.

18. Directed evolution can also be used to study the folding and function of natural enzymes (Taylor et al. 2001).​

It looks as though much of the above was taken from CA215: Practical uses of evolution.

Added by GenesForLife;

19.The use of model systems including Drosophila melanogaster, Caenorhabditis elegans, Danio rerio and even good old Saccharomyces cerevisiae to understand the function of genes and the application of the knowledge derived therefrom to human systems and understanding human diseases.

20. The identification of potential oncogenes in amplified regions of cancer cell genomes and the identification of tumour suppressors in segments that are prone to deletion and Loss of heterozygosity, both of which are based upon the selective advantages associated with overexpressing or losing certain genes.

21. The application of evolutionary algorithms to designing aircraft wings (Obayashi)​

Added by Delvo (with commentary by Calilasseia);

22. Algorithms mimicking natural selection have yielded "designs" that have been used to build some bits of technology. [See for example, the paper on spacecraft antennae designed using evolutionary algorithms].

23. Shifting from science to society: it provides alternate explanations for physical and some cultural differences between peoples native to different regions of the world, thus debunking moralistic or otherwise judgemental explanations that have caused conflict between them or been used by one against another. It also helps our understanding of the kinds of mistakes our own minds can make without realizing it, which helps us develop ways to work around them, which makes us better at science research in general, technological development of all kinds, criminal justice, and social policy.​


In other words, all of these things are intelligent designs and models coming from human beings. "Directed" evolution :). In the present, with no need for assumptions, beliefs, guesses of what may have happened millions and billions of years ago. When knowledge/intelligence arises in the present, just give credit to antique evolution theory and call it a day. The present and human beings don't bode well for "natural selection" as is. As if many make human beings exempt from natural selection by using terms such as "guided" evolution and "artificial selection." Human beings do everything natural selection predicted/predicts they wouldn't and shouldn't do. So, for #23... why haven't many humans become aware of this?

Your criteria for what is successful differs from mine. Financial worth does not equate to success in my perception. False dichotomy of species has assumed a lot of wrong. Even if the genome is compared, only a small percentage of the genome is compared in the first place. Even if things are 90% similar genetically, there are millions of differences and unknown differences. Lack of understanding and assumptions have led to disasters.... and a large margin of profit which of course there must be no bias there?
No sick= no billions of dollars.

These are all acquired by intuition, intelligence, altruism, guidance within humans. Why do humans take credit for anything when nature has done this?

Do you consider it a hero complex when unconscious "scientists" cause disaster and species extinction/brink of extinction and then attempts to swoop in and correct its disaster and are labeled heroes? Then blame nature for the unconscious and unknown causes? Such as HIV. Polio has mutated as well due to certain vaccinations. Where did HIV and polio arise from?

All of these things exist within me, and you.... why can I not discover and come to know the nature of my own molecules, genes, intelligence, altruism, bacteria, etc. and have an inner transformation of unity and symbiotic relationship within? Where bacteria and I are one and not warring with one another? Having knowledge of assumptions and guesses from others is of no profit/value to ones own personal well being and discovery. Why anyone places their own health and children's health in the hands of assumptions and another, I don't have to question... it is do to mental indoctrination, conformity, having faith/trust in those that claim to know someone better than a person can know themselves. Sign away your freedom, trust in a better teacher within, and what can be discovered/known within at the X of another's claimed superior intelligence.

I believe I've read you mentioning that a choice by faith was the biggest mistake of your life. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) Well, the biggest mistakes many have made were putting their faith in assumed and guessed and false dichotomy in the lack of understanding of evolution from egotistical and wealthy self-proclaimed professionals and have damaged and ruined their lives.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Natural causes. Just like the reason why you exist. Unless you claim you were personally created by a god for some particular reason?

I don't know. Ask your god. He should know. If he could provide some answers at least he would be of some use.

Don't know. Ask your god. He should know. If he could provide some answers at least he would be of some use.The 7 Characteristics of Life

Was that supposed to answer my questions? :shrug: For someone who so strongly supports science's "scientific" theory, you apparently don't know much. "I don't know" is a bit of a sad response if you ask me. :confused:

Can you define "natural causes" for me? According to the law of cause and effect, there has to be a cause for everything....what caused "nature"? Can science tell us this? What caused "life"?

When there's an estimated 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets in the universe claiming that not a single one of them could be like earth by chance is ridiculous.

The Bible explains it all very clearly. When the Creator chose to use his enormous energy to created matter, he also purposed to create material beings who could enjoy life too. Life forms exist in infinite variety as the Bible mentions...none of them were accidental.....and those found on earth are not the only living beings in existence. For those on earth, not of the human variety, he chose to program them for the perpetuation of their species. There are sentient creatures on this earth in abundance but all largely operate by instinct.....a kind of programmed wisdom, if you like. They do not plan the things they do in a conscious way, but are governed by triggers in their pre-programmed cycles of life. This has ensured that life on this planet will go on indefinitely without the Creator's intervention.

But the last of his creative endeavors was us.....humankind. There are no beings on this planet like us....we alone were made to reflect the Creator's own qualities. Only the Bible can explain why we are so different to all other species on this earth....why the last to arrive became the most advanced....evolution hasn't got a clue. :shrug:

If you understand that the vast universe was created in one mighty act of creation (science knows this is true) then the Creator had to start somewhere......why not here? Earth was in the perfect place with a perfect size and prepared carefully for the life that it would host. Humans were the ones with the same kind of intelligence that God himself has and with moral qualities not seen in the animal kingdom. We were supposed to represent the Creator as caretakers of this earth and its fellow inhabitants.

But in giving us free will, (a necessary component to our being "like God") there was always the possibility of that faculty being abused. In fact a spirit being was the first to do so, having for the first time an opportunity to be "like God" himself....but in the wrong way. He enticed the first humans into rebellion by tricking them into abusing their free will as well. This would-be god, got what he wanted all along...the worship of lower creatures. He is worshiped by the vast majority of humans on earth today, most of whom have no idea that they are playing right into his grubby hands. Unbelief or false beliefs...he doesn't care what you worship as long as it isn't the Creator.

The history of God's dealings with humankind have been an exercise to test our individual ability to stand up for God under pressure from a rebellious majority to cave in to their godlessness or false worship.

Now, you can deny that any of that is true, but this is why the Bible says we will all stand before our Maker and give an account of our life course to him. He is the giver of life and he can just as easily take it away from those who fail to appreciate him for who and what he is.....not what tiny human minds and easily managed egos have fooled the world into believing.

To me the Bible's explanation makes perfect sense.....to others it may not. But at the end of the day, when it all comes to the end, all will acknowledge the Creator, one way or another. That is what I believe.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The science of biology and Darwin's theory in particular are on firm a foundation as are all sciences and the other aspects of biology (genetics, ecology, microbiology, etc..)

According to Marc Kirschner (previously quoted)...."over the last 100 years, almost all of biology has proceeded independent of evolution, except evolutionary biology itself. Molecular biology, biochemistry, physiology, have not taken evolution into account at all."
What an interesting statement. The only field of science that depends on evolutionary biology is...evolutionary biology.
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Other fields of science don't need it at all apparently. So its not biology or genetics, ecology or even microbiology that in question.....just the science that props up macro-evolution. That is what has a shaky foundation.

They have Christians promoting a religious social agenda underwriting their work, without which, they would have to find other work or go hungry.

Those "Christians" have nothing to do with me. I do not formulate my beliefs on what they may or may not say....the Bible is my primary source but it is backed up by true science....not the theoretical variety.

I don't need the Discovery Institute or any other institution of human learning to furnish my beliefs.....I can go to the scientists themselves...the ones who have actual proof for their findings to see evidence for myself that the Bible is true.

Neither government nor scientific research institutions want to put money into that research - only those hoping to find a god in a telescope or microscope.

They are wasting their time if that's the case. God has no need to be found either in a telescope or a microscope.....that is how humans develop their ideas.....the Creator is too big for either of those limited, man-made instruments. His creation however, can be admired by their use.
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Why? Because science is already looking to see what's out there and what knowledge can be acquired studying reality, and they have found no evidence for an intelligent designer. The ID people, who are only looking for one thing, can do no more.

I study reality too. What are all those pictures I have posted on this thread?....look carefully and see that undirected chance could never produce even one of these, let alone all the amazing creatures that exist on earth.
images
images
images
images
images
images
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images
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.....all real creatures who live in this world today....not a few scattered bones of long extinct creatures who can basically tell us very little without science giving them a voice like puppets used by a ventriloquist.

The reason why scientists have found no evidence for an Intelligent Designer is because they can't see what is right under their noses. He will not tap anyone on the shoulder and force them to acknowledge him. He leaves us his work to study and to figure out for ourselves what sort of Creator he is. Who is not moved by these images?

Besides....what is "out there" pales into insignificance when compared to what is "in here". What does science expect to find by probing into space? Life? Shouldn't science be used to better the life of all of earth's inhabitants first, before it spend billions of dollars chasing after a fantasy? Or is it that they are looking for another planet to move to when they have messed this one up beyond repair?
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They're faith based thinkers trying to make a living.

What are scientists then? Are they not also "faith based thinkers" trying to make a living and doing so quite well I might add. We all know that the entire macro-evolution scenario is based on faith, not evidence.

When science talks about evolution and their evidence...they can only offer adaptation as a proven model. They have no way to ascertain whether macro-evolution ever took place except in their imagination. Scientists find that galling, I know.

If there was all this scientific proof, y'all wouldn't need to still be here arguing after 5,000 replies and 80,000 views. :confused: would you?
 
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ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
What are scientists then? Are they not also "faith based thinkers" trying to make a living and doing so quite well I might add.
I doubt very much you have any idea of the average salary of a biologist.

We all know that the entire macro-evolution scenario is based on faith, not evidence.
False.

When science talks about evolution and their evidence...they can only offer adaptation as a proven model.
You jumped in one sentence from talking about evidence to talking about proof. You are clearly very confused by reasonable scientific standards.

Also, you can't "prove" a model. A model is either demonstrated to make useful and/or accurate predictions, or it is changed or discarded to account for facts. No theory in science is ever "proven" and you would do well to dispense with the idea that science needs to "prove" things when the whole point of science is that it's conclusions are tentative.

They have no way to ascertain whether macro-evolution ever took place except in their imagination.
Except for the fossil record, which shows clear change in morphology and increase in diversity over time, and genetics which shows that all life is genetically related and shares common inherited traits.

Scientists find that galling, I know.
You have demonstrated that you haven't the first idea what scientists think.

If there was all this scientific proof, y'all wouldn't need to still be here arguing after 5,000 replies and 80,000 views. :confused: would you?
That depends entirely on the stubbornness and dishonesty of the person we're explaining it to. You've demonstrated an unwillingness to accept any fact presented to you - don't blame us for your own shortcomings.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
According to Marc Kirschner (previously quoted)...."over the last 100 years, almost all of biology has proceeded independent of evolution, except evolutionary biology itself. Molecular biology, biochemistry, physiology, have not taken evolution into account at all."
What an interesting statement. The only field of science that depends on evolutionary biology is...evolutionary biology.
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Other fields of science don't need it at all apparently. So its not biology or genetics, ecology or even microbiology that in question.....just the science that props up macro-evolution. That is what has a shaky foundation.



Those "Christians" have nothing to do with me. I do not formulate my beliefs on what they may or may not say....the Bible is my primary source but it is backed up by true science....not the theoretical variety.

I don't need the Discovery Institute or any other institution of human learning to furnish my beliefs.....I can go to the scientists themselves...the ones who have actual proof for their findings to see evidence for myself that the Bible is true.



They are wasting their time if that's the case. God has no need to be found either in a telescope or a microscope.....that is how humans develop their ideas.....the Creator is too big for either of those limited, man-made instruments. His creation however, can be admired by their use.
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I study reality too. What are all those pictures I have posted on this thread?....look carefully and see that undirected chance could never produce even one of these, let alone all the amazing creatures that exist on earth.


.....all real creatures who live in this world today....not a few scattered bones of long extinct creatures who can basically tell us very little without science giving them a voice like puppets used by a ventriloquist.

The reason why scientists have found no evidence for an Intelligent Designer is because they can't see what is right under their noses. He will not tap anyone on the shoulder and force them to acknowledge him. He leaves us his work to study and to figure out for ourselves what sort of Creator he is. Who is not moved by these images?

Besides....what is "out there" pales into insignificance when compared to what is "in here". What does science expect to find by probing into space? Life? Shouldn't science be used to better the life of all of earth's inhabitants first, before it spend billions of dollars chasing after a fantasy? Or is it that they are looking for another planet to move to when they have messed this one up beyond repair?
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What are scientists then? Are they not also "faith based thinkers" trying to make a living and doing so quite well I might add. We all know that the entire macro-evolution scenario is based on faith, not evidence.

When science talks about evolution and their evidence...they can only offer adaptation as a proven model. They have no way to ascertain whether macro-evolution ever took place except in their imagination. Scientists find that galling, I know.

If there was all this scientific proof, y'all wouldn't need to still be here arguing after 5,000 replies and 80,000 views. :confused: would you?
Comparative genomics is based on evolutionary principles, Deeje. How convenient that you've forgotten the discussion on that one. And the subsequent reminder of that discussion from another poster. You look extremely dishonest right now. Let's hope it's an accident.

You have done absolutely no study of reality by looking at a couple of pictures of koala bears and ducks you found on the internet. That's an insult to the scientists who do actual in-depth study and analysis of nature for a living.

And I have no idea why you think the fact that the thread is long means that your arguments hold any water. That's a strange metric you've chosen there.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So by their own argument, science would have progressed much faster had they all been working under a theistic assumption
their argument not mine remember.

No, I don't remember. I think it's your argument.

skepticism of atheism has the better track record.

What are you skeptical of? That atheists accept no god or gods? That's pretty much all that one need claim to be an atheist.

The inherent conflict between science and atheism, is that atheism is obliged to always try to close the case on the simplest, most minimaistic, reductionist God refuting explanation possible.

Neither atheism nor science close cases. The scientists will develop a theory of God when they find a god or have a need for one.

Don't you think that an intelligently designed universe should look different from one that emerged from naturalistic processes - different in a way that would require an intelligence to account for that difference? If such a thing exists and ever turns up, the scientists will have to add a new branch of science.

But so far, after centuries of examining nature near and far, large and small, nothing has turned up that requires a god to account for it.

That would be surprising in an intelligently designed universe, but exactly what you'd expect in a godless universe.

So this infinite probability machine can create absolutely anything--- except God, which would defeat the entire purpose- and so there is a built in safety mechanism insuring this never happens?

The multiverse would be a substance from which universes bud off. Is God is a universe?

It seems that your incredulity is reserved only for ideas not requiring a god. The god you propose would be orders of magnitude more ordered and complex than a multiverse, since the god needs to be conscious and posses incredible powers of thought and will. A multiverse is a much more likely proposition. It's much simpler and meets the need of accounting for the existence of a universe capable of generating life like us. That's why it is preferred to god hypotheses.

the simplest explanation is certainly always the most tempting, but nature shows little regard for Occam's razor does it? moreover it is obliged to disobey it.

Occam's razor isn't about nature. It's about hypotheses. Nature is not asked to obey Occam's razor or any other idea of man.

likewise, why throw out my idea, which works great, in favor of yours, which is terrible

Creationism doesn't work at all. It is as sterile as astrology.

Evolutionary theory works. It does everything a scientific theory can.

no more than we could explain gravity with classical physics, it's an insurmountable paradox doomed to failure

We don't try to explain gravity. We attempt to predict how it will affect physical object. Classical physics works nicely for most applications. I understand that nothing more than Newton's idea were used to send man to the moon and back. There is no paradox, and science has been "doomed" to stellar success.

Why are creationists so eager to declare crises in science that just aren't there? Science is plodding along swimmingly. In the meantime, theology continues to give us nothing but unsupported claims and promises.

As an aside, I saw a move last night called Victor that was one of the few movies or TV shows that I have seen to portray religion positively. Christians will enjoy watching this film based on a true story of a Puerto Rican immigrant in Brooklyn who ends up selling heroine and addicted to it. He fails to get clean in two tries in rehab units, and then is rescued by a young pastor with an outreach program. This is a much better way too present Christianity than what we are used to - attacks on science, attempts to penetrate the church-state wall, targeting and scapegoating gays, demeaning atheists and atheism, etc.. That stuff hurts the church's public image.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Focus on evolution theory. I know it's difficult to restrain from bringing up intelligent design but that wasn't even mentioned.

No thank you.

bacteria developing resistance. This has nothing to do with the explanation of evolution theory.

The theory of evolution predicts and explains resistance to antibiotics.

If it were now, and antiobiotics were just hitting the market, and someone said that they will eventually cause harm and disaster, and create resistant bacteria and mutated diseases... that someone would be called a pseudoscientific conspiracy theorist for using their intuitive intelligence that has nothing to do with evolution theory.

Antibiotics don't cause harm or disaster. They save lives.

If the evolution of bacteria is so well known and factual, sitting on mountains of evidence... why does Kirschner insist we lack understanding of it, and why would we go back to a theory that was wrong and is wrong in the first place regarding bacteria?

Ask Kirshner. I'd never heard of him before this week, so can't answer for him.

When there is false dichotomy and assumptions, disasters happen. Why animal studies are often poor predictors of human reactions to exposure

It sounds like you probably has better stay out of doctors' offices and hospitals. They're full of the disaster you warn of.

I hear that with faith, one can move mountains. Surely that power can clear a meningitis with just prayer.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
In other words, all of these things are intelligent designs and models coming from human beings.

No, they are all "Advances to society because of the Theory of Evolution"

Your criteria for what is successful differs from mine. Financial worth does not equate to success in my perception.

That's not my criterion for success except in business adventures and investing.

False dichotomy of species has assumed a lot of wrong.

I don't understand that sentence. I am aware of no dichotomy of species, true or false.

Lack of understanding and assumptions have led to disasters

Agreed. I'm a strong proponent of avoiding faith-based decision making.

why can I not discover and come to know the nature of my own molecules, genes, intelligence, altruism, bacteria, etc. and have an inner transformation of unity and symbiotic relationship within?

Another odd sentence. What's an inner transformation of unity, or a symbolic relationship within?

The nature of your molecules can be found in a biochemistry text. For bacteria, consult microbiology, especially medical micro. For genes, try genetics. Intelligence and altruism are likely gifts of evolution.

Having knowledge of assumptions and guesses from others is of no profit/value to ones own personal well being and discovery.

That's why I don't consult holy books.

I believe I've read you mentioning that a choice by faith was the biggest mistake of your life. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

You are correct.

the biggest mistakes many have made were putting their faith in assumed and guessed and false dichotomy in the lack of understanding of evolution from egotistical and wealthy self-proclaimed professionals and have damaged and ruined their lives.

Faith is not a path to truth. How can it be if the opposite of what one believes in faith can also be believed by faith. At least one of the two must be wrong, but faith based thought not only won't tell you that you are wrong, it often prevents one from discovering that fact. Isn't that what a claim that no evidence could ever change one's mind means? It means that if you are wrong, there is no possible way to discover that.

How is that not a bad way to approach reality?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
But arguably the greatest discovery of all time, absolutely did require skepticism of atheism. the name itself 'Big Bang' was a pejorative term used by atheists to mock what they saw as overt theistic implications.

To @Guy Threepwood

You are still ignoring the history of the Big Bang model, that Georges Lemaître wasn’t the only one to work on the expanding universe model, nor was he the earliest.

In 1917, Einstein came up with the theory of General Relativity, as extended theory to Newton’s theory on gravity.

And in 1919, using the largest telescope of that time, at the Hooker Observatory, Edwin Hubble discovered the universe was larger than the Milky Way. He discovered that the Andromeda Nebula and Triangulum Nebula were not nebulae within the Milky Way at all, but two separate spiral galaxies. Andromeda Nebula was renamed to Andromeda Galaxy, and Triangulum Nebula to Triangulum Galaxy.

So in the next decade, 3 astrophysicists began working on the hypothesis that the universe origin, that the United verse has been expanding ever since the initial inflationary .

Two other astrophysicists came up with the same ideas as that of Lemaître’s Hypothesis Of The Primeval Atom, 1927:
  1. Alexander Friedmann, Russian, 1922.
  2. Howard Percy Robertson, American, 1924-1925.
All three physicists independently applied their own metric Einstein’s General Relativity, as a framework for their separate hypotheses of the expanding universe model.

Robertson had even predicted in 1925, that using the Redshift to indicate the galaxies were moving away from each other. A prediction that Edwin Hubble discovered to be true, in 1929. The redshift paradigm became the 1st evidence to validate Friedmann’s, Robertson’s and Lemaître’s models.

Friedmann and Robertson were both known atheists, as was Hubble.

So the expanding universe model or the Big Bang model wasn’t about atheism vs theism, since all 3 men independently came up with the same concept about the origin of the known universe.

Although two earlier physicists also came up with precisely the same concept about the universe’s origin as Lemaître, most scientists lauded Lemaître as the Father of the Big Bang model. Friedmann and Robertson were pioneers too.

The concept of the expanding universe model was further revised and expanded by 3 other physicists, this time working collaboratively.

George Gamow another Russian physicist, but who had defected to the US, was a former student of Friedmann, back in the early 1920s.

With assistance of his own former student, Ralph Alpher (American), Gamow came up in 1948, with primordial nucleosynthesis, shortly later known as the Big Bang Nucleosynthesis (BBN), which was about how the earliest elements (hydrogen, helium and lithium) were formed in the young universe. BBN was included in the revised Hot Big Bang model.

Gamow assisted with the partnership of Alpher and Robert Herman (American), in 1948, where they predicted Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR). A prediction that was accidentally discovered in 1964 by Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson, when they were using the radio telescope of Bell Labs.

The CMBR was the second evidence (1964) needed to debunk Fred Hoyle’s 1948-1950 Steady State Model.

Gamow and Alpher were both atheists too.

So Georges Lemaître wasn’t the only physicist to work on the Big Bang model, nor was he the last.

And again, the Big Bang theory isn’t a contest between atheists vs theists, since there were earlier pioneers than Lemaître. I am not denying Lemaître’s contribution to the Big Bang model, but you are ignoring those contemporaries who did their own works, while Lemaître was alive.
 
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