Just Accidental?

[Deeje]

Anyone is free to read that for what it's worth......which to me is just funny. Solved?
Who "created" this "life"? The scientists?

You mean it had to have intelligent minds to recreate it?....it didn't just happen randomly all by itself?
"Scientists have created life from scratch"?....yeah, sure they have.

And if you believe that, I have a nice piece of real estate at the South Pole you might be interested in....

What is their definition of life? Why did it need "creating"?

 

[Deeje]

Please demonstrate that animals with good color vision do not find these images beautiful.
There is good evidence that many do,
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1577316290/?tag=slatmaga-20

https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Words...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=GE4PTFHK95Y2CP9HYK27

You want me to buy books now?

I don't see animals making choices about where to live based on how beautiful the scenery is....do you?
Its not like they have to consider the real estate expense or anything.

I see animals making choices about where to live based on food supply and water sources. Those who are in the domestic range usually do not give beauty a second glance. When I lived in the country, the cows and sheep thought more about eating their grass than admiring the sunset. And they ate the same thing, day in and day out, without ever complaining about the menu.

My dog can get excited about food or people, or even other dogs, but I never see her admiring nature except to check out who peed on the bush she is passing when we go for walks. I call it D-Mail because she has to read every message.

 

[sayak83]

You want me to buy books now?

I don't see animals making choices about where to live based on how beautiful the scenery is....do you?
Its not like they have to consider the real estate expense or anything.

I see animals making choices about where to live based on food supply and water sources. Those who are in the domestic range usually do not give beauty a second glance. When I lived in the country, the cows ans sheep thought more about eating their grass than admiring the sunset. And they ate the same thing, day in and day out, without ever complaining about the menu.

My dog can get excited about food or people, or even other dogs, but I never see her admiring nature except to check out who peed on the bush she is passing when we go for walks. I call it D-Mail because she has to read every message.

Since I have regularly seen a crow couple come everyday to their favorite branch for their favorite view of the sunset and snuggle each other (crows mate for life) and dogs feeling as happy as people in running around the beach on a sunny day..I beg to differ.
Humans too choose where to live based on amenities more than beauty. Only a rich few who can pay helicopters to bring food in choose to live in the middle of absolute nowhere.

 

[Deeje]

Since I have regularly seen a crow couple come everyday to their favorite branch for their favorite view of the sunset and snuggle each other (crows mate for life) and dogs feeling as happy as people in running around the beach on a sunny day..I beg to differ.

Hmmmm...the cows where I lived had no mates or favorite branches. (Edit: Sorry I read cows not crows) I know many bird species mate for life.
They were bred for meat or milk. No smooching takes place unless it is required for breeding or milk production.

The same bull was used for many females so that kind of blows that cozy picture out of the water.

I don't think I ever said animals cannot be happy. We were talking about color vision I believe....

Humans too choose where to live based on amenities more than beauty. Only a rich few who can pay helicopters to bring food in choose to live in the middle of absolute nowhere.

Animals do not have financial constraints about where to live....only humans do. A lot of animals live out in the middle of nowhere in Australia.....most of the land in our interior fits that description.

 

[sayak83]

Hmmmm...the cows where I lived had no mates or favorite branches. (Edit: Sorry I read cows not crows) I know many bird species mate for life.
They were bred for meat or milk. No smooching takes place unless it is required for breeding or milk production.

The same bull was used for many females so that kind of blows that cozy picture out of the water.

I don't think I ever said animals cannot be happy. We were talking about color vision I believe....

Animals do not have financial constraints about where to live....only humans do. A lot of animals live out in the middle of nowhere in Australia.....most of the land in our interior fits that description.

Food and water are the currency of animals (same for us, we simply use money to trade in food and water).
I was saying enjoying the sunset together. Like watching the sun go down in western sky...everyday.
Breeding for meat and milk have probably dumbed the animals down. But cows, horses, cats and dogs cannot see either red or green and only faded versions of yellow and blue. A sunset will be lost on them, but they will like the blue of lakes and the sea somewhat. That is why I used the example of crows who, along with most birds, have exceptional color vision. Beauty for dogs will lie in the palette of smells which is their primary sensory organ, but we don't have access to what beauty lie hidden in the smells of the world.

 

[Shad]

Self created

Special pleading as it breaks the structure of the argument.

 

[Desert Snake]

Special pleading as it breaks the structure of the argument.

No, it doesn't. You don't seem to be aware that 'pre-existing' is the same issue for non-creationism, as creationism, as is cause.

 

[Shad]

No, it doesn't. You don't seem to be aware that 'pre-existing' is the same issue for non-creationism, as creationism, as is cause.

It is still special pleading due to the parameter "all" thus pre-existing life is part of that "all" This is what all means.

Life A requires the existence of life B
Life B requires the existences of life C
and so on

Except my God!

 

[Desert Snake]

It is still special pleading due to the parameter "all" thus pre-existing life is part of that "all" This is what all means.

Life A requires the existence of life B
Life B requires the existences of life C
and so on

Except my God!

Eh? You don't seem to understand that your equation doesn't work. /matter, the universe cannot be just assumed to have cause or even be pre-existing. Creationism and your theory, cannot be compared in an equal manner.

Self created-->/matter universe-->
?<--/matter universe-->

 

[Shad]

Eh? You don't seem to understand that your equation doesn't work. /matter, the universe cannot be just assumed to have cause or even be pre-existing. Creationism and your theory, cannot be compared in an equal manner.

Irrelevant as the structure of the argument renders your exception special pleading. Again if all life requires preexisting life (which fails under the term "all" itself) your preexisting life requires it's own cause from preexisting life and so on. This is merely infinite regression then you stop at the point you want, God.

Self created-->/matter universe-->
?<--/matter universe-->

I can merely mimic your argument that the universe is self-created thus God is redundant. After all you are merely assign attributes to something without cause because you can. I likewise can do this as well. Definition games, nothing more

 

[Deeje]

Beauty for dogs will lie in the palette of smells which is their primary sensory organ, but we don't have access to what beauty lie hidden in the smells of the world.

Oh, I don't know...the smell of a roast dinner or barbecued steak and onions are right up there to make the taste buds ready for eating. Our sense of smell might not be as sensitive as a dog's, or our vision might not be equal to an eagle, but each is given the degree of sight, hearing, smell, taste or touch that is just right for the particular creature. Its perfectly designed for its lifestyle and environment with ability to fine tune for maximum benefit. Hardly the product of blind chance.

 

[sayak83]

Oh, I don't know...the smell of a roast dinner or barbecued steak and onions are right up there to make the taste buds ready for eating. Our sense of smell might not be as sensitive as a dog's, or our vision might not be equal to an eagle, but each is given the degree of sight, hearing, smell, taste or touch that is just right for the particular creature. Its perfectly designed for its lifestyle and environment with ability to fine tune for maximum benefit. Hardly the product of blind chance.

Not blind chance, evolution.

 

[Deeje]

Again if all life requires preexisting life (which fails under the term "all" itself) your preexisting life requires it's own cause from preexisting life and so on. This is merely infinite regression then you stop at the point you want, God.

Since the Creator does not possess biological life as we know it, this rule of science does not apply to him. He is the source of life but is himself uncreated, eternal....a power that has no human qualification.

So, if you don't want to believe in a Creator, just invent a theory and produce a convincing argument and some good graphics to support it and voila! everything just happened with no direction at all......just a series of millions of flukes following the biggest fluke of all....the unexplainable appearance of life itself. You also stop where you want to, but you have no explanation that is provable by any real scientific method.

I can merely mimic your argument that the universe is self-created thus God is redundant. After all you are merely assign attributes to something without cause because you can. I likewise can do this as well. Definition games, nothing more

Cause and effect.....the universe is an effect that must have had a cause....an extremely powerful one. It is governed by laws so precise that that these could not possibly have come about by chance. The placement of earth where it is in this galaxy, with this position in relation to other heavenly bodies in its orbit around a permanent heat and light source, the angle of its axis, speed of rotation and mixture of gases in its atmosphere.....an abundance of water, and just the right circumstances for life to not just exist, but to flourish, is certainly no accident. How far does you imagination have to stretch compared to ours? We have all the questions answered, whilst you guys are still wandering around in the dark, wondering.

 

[ArtieE]

Cause and effect.....the universe is an effect that must have had a cause....an extremely powerful one. It is governed by laws so precise that that these could not possibly have come about by chance. The placement of earth where it is in this galaxy, with this position in relation to other heavenly bodies in its orbit around a permanent heat and light source, the angle of its axis, speed of rotation and mixture of gases in its atmosphere.....an abundance of water, and just the right circumstances for life to not just exist, but to flourish, is certainly no accident.

Why stop at life? There's practically an infinite number of possible different DNA combinations for human beings. How did your exact combination win the lottery? The chances of exactly you existing by chance is practically zero. Hence your DNA must have been personally selected by your God. Right?

 

[Deeje]

Why stop at life? There's practically an infinite number of possible different DNA combinations for human beings. How did your exact combination win the lottery?

Its a game of chance. But how many winners are there among the hundreds of thousands of tickets? What are the chances of winning even a small amount with every ticket you buy?

The chances of exactly you existing by chance is practically zero. Hence your DNA must have been personally selected by your God. Right?

How do you figure that? My Creator designed the reproductive mechanism by which all living things replicate creatures like themselves. My mother had one egg among the hundreds she was born with, and my father had millions of sperm, but only one united with that particular egg to create me. I am a random choice, made within my mother's body by a process that she had no control over. She did not even know when conception took place. There are no people on earth who chose to be here and very few that were specifically chosen by God to be here....we exist because of the way we are designed to make copies of ourselves, but like snowflakes, there are no two of us alike. Variety and diversity are the hallmark of the Creator's wisdom and ingenuity.

 

[Desert Snake]

Irrelevant as the structure of the argument renders your exception special pleading. Again if all life requires preexisting life (which fails under the term "all" itself) your preexisting life requires it's own cause from preexisting life and so on. This is merely infinite regression then you stop at the point you want, God.



I can merely mimic your argument that the universe is self-created thus God is redundant. After all you are merely assign attributes to something without cause because you can. I likewise can do this as well. Definition games, nothing more

I didn't say that all life requires pre-existing life.

 

[ArtieE]

we exist because of the way we are designed to make copies of ourselves, but like snowflakes, there are no two of us alike. Variety and diversity are the hallmark of the Creator's wisdom and ingenuity.

You wrote and I quote

"The placement of earth where it is in this galaxy, with this position in relation to other heavenly bodies in its orbit around a permanent heat and light source, the angle of its axis, speed of rotation and mixture of gases in its atmosphere.....an abundance of water, and just the right circumstances for life to not just exist, but to flourish, is certainly no accident."

If you don't think the placement of the earth and all the other factors needed for life could be an accident in a universe as big as ours then just continue with your list and tell us all the factors that would have to be exactly right in order for exactly your DNA combination to come up. Obviously god did everything and rigged history so that you personally could exist, right?

 

[Shad]

I didn't say that all life requires pre-existing life.

You responded to a post that did and that is why I pointed out special pleading

 

[Shad]

Since the Creator does not possess biological life as we know it, this rule of science does not apply to him.

It is not a rule of science but the form of the argument that was the issue thus logic. "All life requires preexisting life" When you make an exemption

He is the source of life but is himself uncreated, eternal....a power that has no human qualification.

Irrelevant and a definition game which results in equivocate and more special pleading.

So, if you don't want to believe in a Creator, just invent a theory and produce a convincing argument and some good graphics to support it and voila! everything just happened with no direction at all......just a series of millions of flukes following the biggest fluke of all....the unexplainable appearance of life itself. You also stop where you want to, but you have no explanation that is provable by any real scientific method.

Irrelevant. Your own answer is not scientific anyways. I am not obligated to follow a standard you demand yet do not follow yourself. I can merely label the universe as uncreated as easily as you press the label on to your God entity.

Cause and effect

Which only applies to things within the universe not outside of it nor the universe itself.

.....the universe is an effect that must have had a cause....an extremely powerful one.

Assertion, nothing more.

It is governed by laws so precise that that these could not possibly have come about by chance.

Argument from incredulity

The placement of earth where it is in this galaxy, with this position in relation to other heavenly bodies in its orbit around a permanent heat and light source, the angle of its axis, speed of rotation and mixture of gases in its atmosphere.....an abundance of water, and just the right circumstances for life to not just exist, but to flourish, is certainly no accident. How far does you imagination have to stretch compared to ours? We have all the questions answered, whilst you guys are still wandering around in the dark, wondering.

Argument from incredulity and argument from assertion.

 

[Desert Snake]

Deeje, if all life springs from pre-existing life and your creator is alive what life did he spring from?

'pre-existing life', in this question, does not inform, ''when'' it has to pre=exist. It may mean, simply pre-exist other life, sort of like a primordial soup, or some variation of that.

Self created

my answer

syncretic, Deeje said that all life comes from pre-existing life and if the creator is alive he must have come from pre-existing life. I would be interested in knowing more about that pre-existing life.

^

Ah, yes. some creationists seem to believe that.
I don't subscribe to that idea, /

I answer that I am familiar with that idea, and don't subscribe to it.

You responded to a post that did and that is why I pointed out special pleading

Actually, I didn't. The question itself, was merely a /cause, situation, and I gave a pretty standard answer, for many deity ideas, namely, 'self created'.

We also might assume that a deity who does not pre-exist matter/universe, would not be called ''self created''. That is a question you could ask among those who actually think that a deity formed within a pre=existing /matter/universe