I'll finish off this discussion by just posting an overall comment that summarize our discussion from my perspective, including this last post that I think is quite snarky, btw.
Sorry, I don't intentionally set out to be snarky, but sometimes it just sneaks out when I'm not looking.....
In order for you general scenario vis-a-vis evolution and theistic creation to be the truth, what you have done was to formulate probably the single biggest conspiracy theory ever devised dealing with science. What you put forth would involve many thousands of research scientists all working to create a fictional story. Therefore, that would make them either ignorant, dishonest, or both-- probably the latter. If that somehow makes sense to you, hey, it's a free country.
You know that the Bible tells us about just such a conspiracy.....
There is a powerful entity whose influence is felt in this world without most people even being aware of it.
The world as it is today, with all of our technology and advancements, is degenerating into a cess pit of unrelenting violence, unimaginable cruelty and disgusting immorality, in an age where we should expect to see advancements in knowledge, intellectual appreciation and greater understanding of human behavior. Even my own unbelieving mother says 'its like some evil force is controlling the world'.
More and more people are feeling this way.....we know that because we talk to them every day in our evangelizing work.
The apostle John describes this "evil force" .....
"We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." (1 John 5:19) This entity has the power to "blind minds" (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)....which means that the center that processes all information gathered by the senses is essentially disabled, no matter how intelligent a person purports to be. That explains why there is such a general acceptance of something so 'godless' when there is no real solid, verifiable evidence to support it.
It is sold to those who have sold out to 'the world'....the one Jesus told us to be "no part" of. (John 15:19)
While virtually stereotyping and essentially demeaning all these scientists, you then elevate a theistic belief system that virtually has no objective support to substantiate it. None. Nada. Nyet.
And that is what I have said all along Metis.....science has no more scientifically verifiable "evidence" than we do.
If you tell the real truth, there is "None. Nada. Nyet" in anything science presents to suggest a continuous chain of descent in all the creatures who have ever lived on this earth. All they have is supposition linking species to one another over millions of years. Is this "objective"? Or is evidence interpreted to agree with a pre-conceived idea? They can suggest that 'microbes evolved into dinosaurs' over millions of years, but how can anyone say that that is more believable than an Intelligent Creator? Science has no more "proof" of that being the case, than we can prove the existence of an all powerful Creator.
As impossible as it is for you to accept, one simply cannot provide one shred of objectively-derived evidence to indicate that there was one deity that fabricated our universe, inspired scriptures, and then will judge people after they die. If it could have been done, it would have been done, but no such evidence exists-- even though I sincerely wish it did.
Its all around you....open your eyes. Use your senses to see what God has beautifully designed.
If biomimetics is the science that tries to copy the marvelous designs in nature and it takes trained scientific brains to work out how to imitate nature...how come the original design needed no intelligence to create them in the first place?
But what you also do is to defy common sense. What we see every day of the week is change, and material objects, including genes, change over time. Many changes are detrimental. and we know that, but they largely get weeded out through natural selection. Unfortunately some persist.
The change you see is confined to within a species. Adaptation continues to this day. But science has never once seen one species transition into another completely different kind of creature altogether. That is where evidence ends and fantasy begins.
If "God" created us all directly, then miscarriages and children borne with serious birth defects would logically indicate that he is one mean and nasty deity, going by your scenario. An unborn or newly borne baby cannot sin, so what kind of deity would punish him/her for that?
If you are going to argue from the Biblical aspect, then at least argue from what the Bible actually says.....it tells us exactly why we do not enjoy the perfection that our bodies suggest is possible. Why would you see miscarriage as a punishment? "Sin" simply means to be imperfect. We see evidence of that imperfection every day.
If Jesus said that "not even a bird falls to the ground without his Father's knowledge", how much more concerned is he with the death of a human....even an unborn human?
The potential for humans to keep living without aging or death is high on the agenda of many scientists. The "fountain of youth" is still as eagerly sought today as it ever was, though through different avenues. No one wants to die if they have a good quality of life. Science cannot explain why we die....they can tell us how, but not why the process of cell renewal fails to keep going. Theoretically it should last indefinitely.
Pain, suffering and death were never supposed to enter the realm of human experience but they did when humans walked away from their Creator....all are completely foreign and unacceptable to us. The Revelation tells us that all those things will be abolished under the rule of God's Kingdom. (Revelation 21:2-5) That is a hope I cherish.
We only have to consider the talents of servants to understand that a pocket of pure genius can exist in human brains. An extraordinary capability is demonstrated in art, music or mathematics to an almost unimaginable degree......this is what humankind were meant to manifest....abilities that reflect the perfection achieved by the Creator in all that he does. We lost it in Eden, but we are promised that we will get it back...not in heaven, but right here on earth where the Creator put us in the first place.
However, I certainly do not go to the polar extreme of saying there cannot be a God or Gods, but I'm simply not willing to have a blind faith in this regard. I read the Bible daily as it provides inspiration to me and many others, but I also read other scriptures and also philosophies as well. Instead of how God is portrayed through the Abrahamic religions, I tend to drift more in the direction of Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einstein, namely that God is so integral with our universe as to be inseparable from it (sorta panetheistic/panentheistic/ deistic-- too beyond my pay-grade to lean more one way or the other). This puts me into "Whatever is, Is" camp. Can I prove this approach to be the correct one? No. Do I know it's the right one? No. It's a "leaning" that I have.
A spiritual "leaning" is programmed into all of us. But like a muscle, if spirituality is not fed or fostered, it will be overtaken by selfish pursuits and the latest 'leanings' of the world's fads and fashions. Evolution is a 'new kid on the block' relatively speaking.
I sympathize with your position because we should all be able to rest our hopes on something solid. It is unsettling to feel like you are in limbo, so to speak, unable to come to solid conclusions about these things.
If this life is all there is, then what is the point of our existence? Animals are blissfully ignorant about their future as they live only in the moment.....we do not have that capacity....we alone can process concepts that animals simply do not have. We can consciously understand and calculate time....a past, present and future. We can use the past and the present knowledge that we have gained to plan our future. We alone have a consciousness of our own demise and the possible loss of loved ones. It causes us great distress. It feels entirely wrong...and the Bible explains why. What does evolution explain? Nothing.
In conclusion, the only thing that stops you from accepting the obvious, namely that there has been and still in an evolutionary process whereas new "kinds" eventually emerge along some lines, is an interpretation of a creation narrative that we know simply is not true, as it simply doesn't reflect what the overwhelming evidence is telling us, not only as scientists but also those who actually study theology in an objective manner. Instead of accepting both known scientific evidence and serious theology, you choose to reject both. But that's clearly your right.
In a world ruled by the devil, nothing is as it seems. His MO is deception and he is an expert at it. How many people know when they are being conned by an expert? Only when things end badly. How does the Bible explain that end? Now compare that with what evolution explains as that end......who do you hope is right? What will the majority choose if it means that they are nothing more than animals and can behave like them with no higher power to answer to? (Matthew 7:13-14)
Take care, and this concludes my part of the discussion.
Thank you Metis.....I know you find people like me frustrating....but you will never wear me down. I know what I believe and why I believe it. I know what foundation evolution is built on and I believe that it will collapse in a big way in the not too distant future.....but that is just my belief. We are all free to believe whatever we wish.....we just have the capacity to contemplate what will happen if our faith is misplaced.
Evolutionists have way more to lose than we do.
Good grief.
