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Just Accidental?

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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Sorry, but you don't know what this Creator god know about biology, because the bible contain not a single EXPLANATION about basic anatomy and physiology...let alone this micro-evolution you are ignorantly harping on about.


Actually you don't have to state it, because all creationists make similar "silly" examples whenever they use the micro- vs macro- argument.

Every (Christian) creationists whom I have come across, used the same deceitful tactics...repeated the same mistakes, never learning from their mistakes...cannot think for themselves...never bothered to understand or grasp the differences between theory and hypothesis, between evidence and faith, or evidence and proof, etc

You know, this is really funny when you reverse all those remarks back to you.
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God gave humans a mind and an intellect and a capacity for knowledge that many people use for good. Unfortunately, many scientists are responsible for the deplorable state of the planet because of misusing this knowledge to line their own pockets.
But science also provides us with much beneficial knowledge, so that we who believe in a purposeful Creator, get to appreciate his creative genius at a deeper level. We do not reject real science...only the theoretical unproven kind that seeks to make God redundant. You don't seem to know the difference.

The "micro-vs-macro-evolution" argument is not something I invented. Science itself recognizes the difference.

I repeat....I am not a YEC. I can think for myself and I am not brainwashed any more than you are. I do not accept theory as fact and I see purposeful design everywhere. Purpose needs intelligence to direct a process. Natural selection has no intellect, yet science wants to pretend that it does. All these millions of 'fortunate accidents' that supposedly account for all the life forms that exist on this planet.....and you think creation is a fairy story.
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
@sayak83 Lets just read those quotes again shall we and see who has highlighted what?

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/just-accidental.191045/page-56#post-4971832

"So again, don't we have to ask if this process of making multi-cellular organisms is something it "never adopts in nature" but needed researchers to "coax" them to become multicellular.....and "no organism has made the leap in the past 200 million years"!!!....and you are going to get all excited?

Who is the creator of these organisms? Did they happen by undirected chance? Seriously...


You shoot yourself in the foot Sayak. Denial is all you have.
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Sapiens

Polymathematician
You know Sapiens...I get the distinct impression that you have complete disdain for anyone who disagrees with your view of how life adapted on this planet.
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No, I save my disdain for people who make claims without support and whose stock in trade is the use of logical fallacies. I love it when people disagree with me and give me a run for my money, on the other hand those who waste everyones' time with unsupported and unsupportable claims ...
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Oh the shame of the uneducated ID proponents who can see things that you appear to be oblivious to.
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It is not a question of seeing things as I do, it is a question of they're not being able to cite effective support for their claims.
Throwing your education around doesn't do anything for me because you can be just as 'brain washed' as you accuse us of being.
I don't think that I've mentioned my education. I've just commented on what appears to have been the ineffectiveness of yours.
That thought never occurs to you though, does it? You are welcome to your beliefs but if the only way to reinforce them is with bullying tactics then what is that saying about them?..."believe it or else I will assume you are a moronic twit"? I really don't care what you think.
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The feeling's mutual I can assure you, the difference is that I have palpable reasons and you have vague, unsupportable claims, as per usual.
In my experience, the more education people acquire, the less common sense they exhibit.
Really? There is are alternate explanations for that observation, ranging from your lack of sufficient experience with educated people (too small a sample) and possibly that "you're just dead wrong," to the possibility that you are not able to collect unbiased data because those (potentially) in your sample so dislike you that your influence of the experiment overwhelms any actual signal. But ... if you were better educated in science you'd understand the pitfalls that exist concerning experimental design.

In my own case, beyond the education that I have acquired, that you so disdain, I have sufficient other "common sense" dependent acquisitions (Multi-engine Pilot, seaplane endorsement, IFR, Deep Submersible Pilot, Captain's License, etc.) to warrant a serious challenge to your hypothesis.
I can't disagree with you on how life began however, because science is still poking around in the dark on that one. To me that is the more important question though....isn't it?
No, we really are not "in the dark", we have a excellent grasp of how it occurred though some of the exact details will likely never be known. It's like your demand for every skeleton in a lineage, you confuse the impossibility of the request with an improbability of the phenomena. Education can help you with such problems ... if you are willing to take advantage of it.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
The Creator's reasons for bringing the material universe and material creatures into being is not stated. He simply says in his written instructions for man, that "In the beginning" he created the universe, then during an unspecified time he prepared a previously "formless and waste" planet into something living things could enjoy.

With "instructions to man" do you mean "instructions to a small tribe in the middle east"? Or do you believe in a literal Adam and Eve? I ask, because pre-columbian Indians and pre-Cook Australians never heard of such instructions.

He created each one specifically and purposefully, with the same amount of skill and attention to detail as his will dictated.

Well, I admit is takes a certain amount of ingenuity and dedication to design things like parasitic wasps or the Ebola virus. They work pretty well.

He is not a material being himself, but has the power to create matter. Science wants to place him in the realms of fantasy, because they cannot come up with a way to prove his existence, but they cannot categorically state that it is impossible for such a power to exist. They have just not "discovered" him yet and probably never will with the attitude they display towards him.

Well, obviously, since He does not exist.

They will confront him soon enough, according to scripture.

Well, if scripture says that, then it must be true. I am sure they are really scared, as I would be scared of not getting any present at Christmas on account of my disbelief for Santa.

Out of all living things, he chose only one species to reflect his own intellect and ability. Man alone is unique in so many ways, so that one can safely say there is no other creature like him. Similar in shape and appearance perhaps, but nowhere near him in his mental capacity. There is a chasm between man and animals that no bridge can cross.

I told you before, men are animals. Great apes of the genus homo, to be exact. So there is no need for a bridge to be crossed, to start with.

As for him being the one for whom the universe was made....nah, I don't accept that. He gave humans the capability to be a caretaker of this planet and all its inhabitants, not through blind unconscious instinct, but with the same will and sense of purpose that he possesses. They were to be his representatives here, but I don't think that qualifies man to be the pinnacle of his creation, but it does give him the necessary qualifications for the assignment he gave them though. He values them greatly.

And in what consist this assignement, if we consider that your religion, whatever that is, is just one of the thousands that existed or exist? Did He take different forms (e.g Apollo, Thor, Ganesh, the great Juju at the bottom of the sea, Zeus, Horus, etc, etc) but gave the same assignement?

There are other created beings who are way higher than humans, but they are not material creatures.

Do they have wings? If yes, then they must live in a place with (material) air, at least.

Ciao

- viole
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
No it isn't....and science recognizes this fact by separating the two into micro and macro evolution. These are not my terminologies.
No, they are not, but you distort the meaning of the terms and do not use them in the way in which science defined them.
I think you need to re-read my posts. There is nothing in the way of back-peddling. I have said all along that adaptation is the only form of "evolution" that has been proven by science. The fact that they use adaptation to back up their claim for something way bigger to suggest that macro-evolution naturally follows is absurd. There is no real scientific proof for of any of it. There is no verifiable 'chain' of evolution.
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You, and your fellow travelers, back pedal constantly. I can still remember when it was claimed that there was no evolution and that species=kind. That argument was lost on all fronts (just two of every beetle species would have sunk the Ark) and the idea that there exists some sort of ill defined "kind" that has all the attributes of all the species that resulted from it was brought to the fore ... BIG TIME BACKPEDAL!
There are no adaptations that take species out of their "kinds". No evidence exists for that scenario except in the imagination of science. Species always remain within their 'kinds'. In experiments on speciation, the Hawthorn flies remained flies...the stickleback fish remained fish......the species adapted but remained within the same basic kind of creature. Can you deny this? There is the real science.
See what I mean? The beat goes on. Now all flies are just "flies," and all fish are just "fish."

Row, row, row backward, difficultly upstream,
merrily, merrily, merrily creationism's just a dream.
But no one has brain washed you eh? All you guys seem to be able to do is
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whenever your beliefs are challenged. Why are so many evolutionists such disagreeable people? What does it matter to you if others disagree with you? Unless of course it makes you feel threatened?
Nah, I think it has more to do with our inability to suffer fools gladly.
You don't like your theory being stripped down to reveal that it has no backbone. It is a wishbone held together by the power of suggestion and way too many very large egos.
You've got it wrong again, I'd love it if you could actually strip evolutionary theory down, rather than just play pigeon chess. But you can't, and you don't, so you do (play pigeon chess that is)
LOL....I will go on repeating it because as you can see from this thread, no one has been able to refute anything with actual facts....only with more theory.
That is just the sort of scientifically ignorant statement that makes us "disagreeable." You have no concept of what "fact" and "theory" mean in this context.

A scientific theory is a series of statements about the causal elements for observed phenomena. A critical component of a scientific theory is that it provides explanations and predictions that can be tested.

Usually, theories (in the scientific sense) are large bodies of work that are a composite of the products of many contributors over time and are substantiated by vast bodies of converging evidence. They unify and synchronize the scientific community's view and approach to a particular scientific field. For example, biology has the Theory of Evolution and cell theory, geology has plate tectonic theory, and cosmology has the Big Bang. The development of theories is a key element of the scientific method as they are used to make predictions about the world; if these predictions fail, the theory is revised. Theories are the main goal in science and no explanation can achieve a higher "rank" (contrary to the belief that "theories" become "laws" or "facts" over time).

"Theory" is a Jekyll-and-Hyde term that means different things depending on the context and who is using it. While in everyday speech anything that attempts to provide an explanation for a cause can be dubbed a "theory", a scientific theory has a much more specific meaning. Scientific theory is far more than just a casual conjecture or some Joe's guesswork. A theory in this context is a well-substantiated explanatory framework for a series of facts and observations that is testable and can be used to predict future observations.
(thanks, rationalwiki)

You know, this is really funny when you reverse all those remarks back to you.
127fs2928878.gif


God gave humans a mind and an intellect and a capacity for knowledge that many people use for good. Unfortunately, many scientists are responsible for the deplorable state of the planet because of misusing this knowledge to line their own pockets.
Even if that were true, it is just an ad hominem falsity.
But science also provides us with much beneficial knowledge, so that we who believe in a purposeful Creator, get to appreciate his creative genius at a deeper level. We do not reject real science...only the theoretical unproven kind that seeks to make God redundant. You don't seem to know the difference.
False, if you fail to study it and don't understand it, and make fun of those who do both, then you hardly appreciate it.
The "micro-vs-macro-evolution" argument is not something I invented. Science itself recognizes the difference.
No, you just misappropriated words and misused the argument.
I repeat....I am not a YEC. I can think for myself and I am not brainwashed any more than you are. I do not accept theory as fact and I see purposeful design everywhere. Purpose needs intelligence to direct a process. Natural selection has no intellect, yet science wants to pretend that it does. All these millions of 'fortunate accidents' that supposedly account for all the life forms that exist on this planet.....and you think creation is a fairy story.
gaah.gif
You are not YEC, that's good. But you've already admitted that you don't respect those who think for themselves and now you claim that you do. I guess you can't make up your mind either.
 
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sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
@sayak83 Lets just read those quotes again shall we and see who has highlighted what?

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/just-accidental.191045/page-56#post-4971832

"So again, don't we have to ask if this process of making multi-cellular organisms is something it "never adopts in nature" but needed researchers to "coax" them to become multicellular.....and "no organism has made the leap in the past 200 million years"!!!....and you are going to get all excited?

Who is the creator of these organisms? Did they happen by undirected chance? Seriously...


You shoot yourself in the foot Sayak. Denial is all you have.
mornincoffee.gif
Yes its very exciting showing how simple the step from microbes to multicellular organisms really is! Just seperation between free floating and bottom dwelling forms and viola, multicellular organisms evolve. Indeed, in the Precambrian fossils, the first multicellular organisms that show up were bottom dwellers, showing that precisely this kind of separation occurred in the ancient seas.

And of course one would need to do this experiment in the lab because in the wild, the existing bottom dwelling multicellular organisms would easily outcompete such "start-ups" as they have 200 million years of efficient natural selection behind them.

But continue your deluded denials by all means....
 

Darkstorn

This shows how unique i am.
Deeje: I want an honest answer, knowing i shall not receive one.

On an intellectual level, any argument aside, do you think it's proper to ask others in a debate to prove you wrong instead of you having to prove yourself right first? I mean, in the context of a debate. To me it seems lazy, on an intellectual level. I don't want to use the word "stupid" but i would like to convey you the message that the image you project onto others would reflect that word the most.

Or did you not want a debate?

Another question: Why do you use lies and strawmen to support your argument? Do you think yourself righteous for using dishonest means? If something is true, shouldn't it be easy to prove it with evidence instead of blatant lies?

Isn't lying a sin?
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Science often makes empty claims that cannot possibly be verified by observable experimentation.

Your understanding of observable experimentation is flawed. You want direct experimental based observations like highschool chemistry class. Besides experiments have been done on bacteria and fruit flies.

So assumption is substituted and presented with wonderful video graphics, as if it were irrefutable "evidence". Something presented as fact isn't always true.

Strawman as no one but you seems to claim "irrefutable evidence"


Modern knowledge has added to our appreciation of how nature functions and how complex even "simple" life forms actually are. Yet scence has yet to "prove" that organic evolution ever took place.

False per the above.

There is no way to link their fossils together with evidence that is nothing but assumption, driven to translate "evidence" according to a pre-conceived idea. Evolution is a theory...unproven by any other method of testing scientific facts.

Genetics and bone structure identification all play a role in inference so your claim is false. Your idea of testing science has already been show to be flawed.


All of those are explainable when you understand the unlimited power of the Creator. Only a misunderstanding of what the Bible actually teaches would result in such ignorant statements.

Rejecting one idea does not make it competition correct.

Only to others of like mind.....does preaching to the converted count? :shrug:

Evolution isn't a religion. I made my point that the Bible contradicts modern science which you claimed it didn't.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Again with the lie, you think that if you say if often enough it will become true. I am amazed at the egotism you display going up against the best minds in the world, who say, to a virtual certainty and a virtual consensus that you're full of beans and have naught to offer but arguments from ignorance.

No, there are many Ph.D holders who don't agree, and are willing to articulate their differences with the scientific establishment. Even within the current accepted establishment, very little 'consensus' exists on which mechanisms produced which morphological and behavioral changes. In fact, heated arguments occur all the time!

Here is a very recent article about a meeting of biologists, and one of them is worried about "fisticuffs" breaking out! Funny!

https://www.quantamagazine.org/20161122-scientists-seek-to-update-evolution/
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Deeje: I want an honest answer, knowing i shall not receive one.

On an intellectual level, any argument aside, do you think it's proper to ask others in a debate to prove you wrong instead of you having to prove yourself right first? I mean, in the context of a debate. To me it seems lazy, on an intellectual level. I don't want to use the word "stupid" but i would like to convey you the message that the image you project onto others would reflect that word the most.

Or did you not want a debate?

Another question: Why do you use lies and strawmen to support your argument? Do you think yourself righteous for using dishonest means? If something is true, shouldn't it be easy to prove it with evidence instead of blatant lies?

Isn't lying a sin?

Where are the lies? The evidence she presents is in the obvious complex structure of living organisms! Even Flew and Einstein recognized there had to be an Intelligent Source behind it all!

Tell me, where's the lie, if it's not to believe that a written language, developed itself and began replicating, gaining its own knowledge to form the variety of life we have today? If it was trial and error -- and natural selection is based on trial and error -- the fossil record would be filled with half-formed creatures, manifesting little function. (This is precisely why Gould proposed 'punctuated equilibrium'.)

This is not the case!!!

Furthermore, how could Darwinian evolution account for and maintain the balance between predator-prey interaction? Natural selection, by definition, would upset that balance, as the 'selfish genes' would select for the prey to defeat the attacks from the predators!

Bunny rabbits, et.al., would be developing claws and other defensive body plans!

Deeje is a reasoner, not easily misled by what's accepted. So am I.
 
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Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
And the flu virus will still be a flu virus...a different strain perhaps, but it will not eventually become another completely different organism.
It does. Every year. Same with bacteria. We have done this in labs now with several different species. We have different disesases now that did not exist a few hundred years ago. We have new strands of diseases that we didn't have 2 years ago. That is evolution in motion.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
No, there are many Ph.D holders who don't agree, and are willing to articulate their differences with the scientific establishment. Even within the current accepted establishment, very little 'consensus' exists on which mechanisms produced which morphological and behavioral changes. In fact, heated arguments occur all the time!

Here is a very recent article about a meeting of biologists, and one of them is worried about "fisticuffs" breaking out! Funny!

https://www.quantamagazine.org/20161122-scientists-seek-to-update-evolution/
There is constant scientific debate. What isn't currently debated is if evolution is real or just a really long gag that got out of hand. That is never discussed. However scientists continually argue based on new evidence how exactly things happened. Which allel was it that caused X thing to happen? When did it happen? Which happened first? Which population developed it after re-uniting several generations later? Was it a bottleneck effect that caused it to happen or was the explosive increase in population after? Ect ecft ect. No one is throwing out the idea that "well maybe god did it and all of us are wrong". Zero credible PhD holders in biology say that.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Attacking it? Funny I thought I was just telling the truth about it. :shrug:

Is it a case of the old Jack Nicholson line...."You can't handle the truth!" :facepalm:
I think what you can't handle is that if we take away all your negative remarks about evolution all you are left with to argue for your position is a compilation of about 2000 year old books and some pictures of pretty ducks.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
It does. Every year. Same with bacteria. We have done this in labs now with several different species. We have different disesases now that did not exist a few hundred years ago. We have new strands of diseases that we didn't have 2 years ago. That is evolution in motion.
Yes, we know. But how does this lend any credibility to common descent, or at least descent with modification? Are there any observed bacteria, changing into higher taxa? Are they forming nubs, eventually to develop into legs or fingers? Do scientists see any evidence of the genetic code inside a bacterium arranging itself to form eyes, etc?

With the profound diversity of organisms' body plans, extinct and living, surely there should be some being discovered now, having some non-functional appendages, striving for functionality!
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I think what you can't handle is that if we take away all your negative remarks about evolution all you are left with to argue for your position is a compilation of about 2000 year old books and some pictures of pretty ducks.
Lol. ^^ lack of imagination.^^
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Yes, we know. But how does this lend any credibility to common descent, or at least descent with modification? Are there any observed bacteria, changing into higher taxa? Are they forming nubs, eventually to develop into legs or fingers? Do scientists see any evidence of the genetic code inside a bacterium arranging itself to form eyes, etc?

With the profound diversity of organisms' body plans, extinct and living, surely there should be some being discovered now, having some non-functional appendages, striving for functionality!
There is no such thing as a higher taxa. The importance is that the exact mechanisms used for common descent are seen working in motion right now. Wait a few million years to see the results you want.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
There is constant scientific debate. What isn't currently debated is if evolution is real or just a really long gag that got out of hand. That is never discussed. However scientists continually argue based on new evidence how exactly things happened. Which allel was it that caused X thing to happen? When did it happen? Which happened first? Which population developed it after re-uniting several generations later? Was it a bottleneck effect that caused it to happen or was the explosive increase in population after? Ect ecft ect. No one is throwing out the idea that "well maybe god did it and all of us are wrong". Zero credible PhD holders in biology say that.

"Zero credible PhD holders in biology say that."

This is completely subjective! I think -- I know -- there are many, who present arguments that I and others consider reasonable and very credible.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
"Zero credible PhD holders in biology say that."

This is completely subjective! I think -- I know -- there are many, who present arguments that I and others consider reasonable and very credible.
Should I give specifics as to what a credible PhD holder in Biology is? I feel its fairly objective. If they get their PhD from a creationist non-accredited school for the specific purpouse of inflating the number of "scientists" (yes I must use the quotation marks here) they are no a credible or legitimate PhD holder in biology.
 
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