sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
Apparently the natural world of cause and effect dictates everything. Just sit back in cruise control and enjoy the ride.
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Just Putting Things in Perspective....
- Thread starter Deeje
- Start date
The Kilted Heathen
Crow FreyjasmaðR
Be that as it may, my statements aren't on the natural laws. They're of whether or not any possible deity really cares about what you do, given the size and scope of all of creation.
What is "inherent nature"? What processes make things "inherent"? If you 'inherit' something. it always comes from someone else....so who is that 'someone'?
Some things never change because they do so well as they are. Change comes from necessity and this is what we see in nature. Creatures adapt because of change, and adaptation is something all creatures are capable of doing....a change in environment or food source will force such a change, but if there are no changes to adapt to, things remain as they are. No?
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Not really, and in many instances it's demonstrably false.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
Perhaps it's s a non sequitur. Why would a supposed creator worry about the natural world, no matter it's size? It runs itself. Leaves til the end of time to mess with our minds
The Kilted Heathen
Crow FreyjasmaðR
It would have to be every instance to completely nullify or disprove free will. If you're the one making decisions for yourself, then you have free will whether you can always use it or not. If I have a car, but can only drive it on the roads, that doesn't mean my car doesn't exist.
Unless, of course, it's the creator's who are running the natural world.
The Kilted Heathen
Crow FreyjasmaðR
Inherent is different than inherit. Note the spelling differences. Inherent means existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute.
Thank you...your honesty is refreshing.
What does "entirely natural" actually mean? We hear this word "natural" bandied about a lot, but most people assume things about the meaning of this word.
"Natural" according to one dictionary definition is "existing in or derived from nature; not made or caused by humankind."
Just because something is not made by humans, doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't made by some other intelligent entity. As you said, we don't really know if such an entity exists except by what we observe.
But when design and planning are clearly demonstrated, then to me one would naturally assume that a designer was at work and that he had a purpose in what he has made. Isn't that logical?
If you came across an art gallery with exquisite works of art...paintings and sculptures....you don't naturally assume that there was no artist, so why does science pretend there is no Creator? When you see what is out there beyond the boundaries of the earth, and see how magnificent it is and the sheer size and scope of it.....is it not the grandest work of art we have ever seen?
If science doesn't really know, then what is the point of arguing about origins? Can it not just be content with a theory being a theory? We all know that evolution is no more provable than creation, so why do so many arrogantly pretend that it is fact when it clearly isn't?
If this is the work of an all powerful Creator, then what does that mean for his intelligent creation who can only discern the 'fringes of his ways'?
Exactly.....the law of 'cause and effect' shows us that things don't just 'come into being'...they have to have an originator....a designer and maker.....a first cause.....that is logical. Offspring come with inherited characteristics from a gene pool. Adaptation can change inherited traits but how far can adaptation go? What can science really tell us about that without resorting to suggestion and conjecture?
What role does educated guessing play in science?
Knowing where life came from is crucial to our understanding of everything IMO. Knowing where the Universe originated answers a lot of unanswered questions that we earth-bound humans have about the big picture. Only we need those answers.
The fact that science has no big picture makes its assertions very empty for a lot of people. We are unique on this planet because we alone seek answers to our many questions. Animals don't care why they are here....they are just programmed to eat, drink and reproduce. They live in the "now"....we are NOT like them at all. Our intellect demands reasons for everything....science has no reasons....no purpose for our existence....and no future hope that things will improve as we see everything going downhill.
We can't live in the "now" because unless we plan for the future with intelligent decisions, made by humans with more than just big egos, our whole world is doomed.
To me, without God, I cannot make sense of anything. Without God there is no hope of a better future....left in the hands of corruptible human beings I see no future.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
It isn't clearly demonstrated. It's speculation at best.
If there is a creator of sorts, then our uviverse didn't come into being via natural causes. It wouldn't make it necessarily supernatural, either.
Scientists speculate different possibilities based on what we know. But we don't know the origins of life on Earth. For all we know, the first life forms on Earth may have hitched a ride on a rock that originated from Mars. But that too is speculation based on the facts that we know Mars at one point in time had water, that chunks of rocks from one planet can be hurled into space (such as being propelled from a meteor strike), and we know some life forms would be able to survive the journey.
It's not really a law, and even if entirely true then it must logically follow that even this creator would have a cause.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
It wouldn't require that every instance be completely nullified, and this is where compatibilism comes into play.
Making a decision ourself doesn't mean necessarily that it is free from outside influence. And, indeed, our decisions are based upon outside influences. The application of marketing research is probably one of the most easily identifiable places were we can see this happening. Did people really choose to buy product x on their own free will, or were they manipulated because the commercials played upon their hopes and insecurities?
We can easily prove a car exists because it has physical properties.
When I consider the Genesis account of creation, I can see that man was created last as a caretaker for all the rest.
Being 'made in God's image', he was to act as God's representative in caring for all that was brought into existence on this planet.
A company owner will put in a manager to care for his interests and reward him according to the proper fulfillment of his duties. You are right.....we are pathetic at our assignment because we think we can do a better job than the Boss. When the Boss comes to inspect his books with his accountant, and sees what a pathetic job his manager has done, what will he do? Do you see him keeping his job?
I see amazing potential in the universe for God to make other world in habitable and spread his original purpose beyond just this planet. I see us (earth's inhabitants) as the beginning of something huge and amazing. The Universe is infinite and so are God's plans for it. Who knows what he has planned, but I know it wasn't put there for decoration.
You are right again! "Superior" doesn't always equate to being better or more noble....sometimes it just means stronger or more aggressive. Man is no match for a lion or a tiger, one on one, but if man has a gun, then it makes the man more powerful, but only in his intelligence in developing a way to exercise power over a stronger beast. Man has this mentality.....he makes weapons and when another weapon is developed by his enemy that is more powerful, then he must find a way to make a superior weapon....and here we are again with the threat of a nuclear holocaust.
Man is lousy at ruling over other humans. Power corrupts him every time....and aren't we sick of it?Does this make man superior, or does it just show him what happens when he exercises his free will to the detriment of others? At no other time in history has man had the capability to wipe out all life on this earth.
In Matthew 16:26 Jesus said... "Really, what good will it do a man if he gains the whole world but loses his life? Or what will a man give in exchange for his life?" Interesting questions to ponder in the world's current state.
Humility is an asset for all humans, no doubt about that....but that doesn't mean recognizing our superiority over animals is arrogant. Promoting our superiority over other humans is arrogant. Treating other humans as inferior is arrogant.
It was a God-given assignment for man to take care of the Creator's interests on earth. We are to love the creation...the planet and all its inhabitants as precious possessions of the owner entrusted to our care. How is our track record so far?
We will answer for our failure to do what was asked of us. Isn't that fair?
Examples?
Yes...."Inherent" means "existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute.
"any form of mountaineering has its inherent dangers"
synonyms: intrinsic, innate, immanent, built-in, inborn, ingrained, deep-rooted"
For something to be "inherent" it is permanently programmed into the genetics in the form of a characteristic or attribute. Laughter and humor for example are inherent in all humans. When something is "inborn" it is passed down from parent to child. It is inherited.
allfoak
Alchemist
The All is the all and the All is in all.
Nothing escapes the care of the All.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Cultural norms and expectations, marketing and advertisement, motivational interviewing, operant and classical conditioning, substance dependency, numerous mental illnesses, past experiences effecting out current behaviors, subconscious processes, and the environment we live in but a few of the many things cause us to react/behave without our will being free.
As you brought up causality, if that is a law of the universe then we live in a determinist world and free will does not exist at all as all our actions are the result of a prior cause.
I I may not share your beliefs but I find your wonderment and perspective somewhat endearing. If we are caretakers then we should be fired. I guess we have failed as a species. All our so called achievements might even lead to our doom (if you're one for Sci Fi predictions of technology anyway.)When I consider the Genesis account of creation, I can see that man was created last as a caretaker for all the rest.
Being 'made in God's image', he was to act as God's representative in caring for all that was brought into existence on this planet.
A company owner will put in a manager to care for his interests and reward him according to the proper fulfillment of his duties. You are right.....we are pathetic at our assignment because we think we can do a better job than the Boss. When the Boss comes to inspect his books with his accountant, and sees what a pathetic job his manager has done, what will he do? Do you see him keeping his job?
I see amazing potential in the universe for God to make other world in habitable and spread his original purpose beyond just this planet. I see us (earth's inhabitants) as the beginning of something huge and amazing. The Universe is infinite and so are God's plans for it. Who knows what he has planned, but I know it wasn't put there for decoration.
You are right again! "Superior" doesn't always equate to being better or more noble....sometimes it just means stronger or more aggressive. Man is no match for a lion or a tiger, one on one, but if man has a gun, then it makes the man more powerful, but only in his intelligence in developing a way to exercise power over a stronger beast. Man has this mentality.....he makes weapons and when another weapon is developed by his enemy that is more powerful, then he must find a way to make a superior weapon....and here we are again with the threat of a nuclear holocaust.
Does this make man superior, or does it just show him what happens when he exercises his free will to the detriment of others? At no other time in history has man had the capability to wipe out all life on this earth.
In Matthew 16:26 Jesus said... "Really, what good will it do a man if he gains the whole world but loses his life? Or what will a man give in exchange for his life?" Interesting questions to ponder in the world's current state.
Humility is an asset for all humans, no doubt about that....but that doesn't mean recognizing our superiority over animals is arrogant. Promoting our superiority over other humans is arrogant. Treating other humans as inferior is arrogant.
It was a God-given assignment for man to take care of the Creator's interests on earth. We are to love the creation...the planet and all its inhabitants as precious possessions of the owner entrusted to our care. How is our track record so far?
We will answer for our failure to do what was asked of us. Isn't that fair?
I do not fear retribution from any deity, however, but my deity perhaps is a bit less......angered at us I guess.
I believe it is.....
If creation is 'accidental' then why do we see this circular principle demonstrated in the Universe and on earth?
Who taught bees that hexagons are the best shape for stability and strength in their hives?
Did they just work that out for themselves?
Fibonacci sequence is seen throughout nature and the universe.....precise mathematical principles don't just drop out of thin air...do they?
Perhaps that is the problem? Humans have been programmed to think of the Creator as "supernatural". But he is only outside of our limited knowledge and experience here on this planet. He may well be the most "natural" thing in existence where he exists. The beings he created would also be "natural" in that realm. Not everything is visible...even on earth.
But that is so limited. Science speculates mostly about what it doesn't know....and that is the problem....speculation then becomes "facts" in their way of viewing things. And kids in school are convinced at an early age so they never question anything by the time they get to collage.
Why believe that and not that a power exists that is not yet known to science? Why eagerly accept something that is as fanciful as what science believes the Creator to be? It seems to me that they will grasp at any straw as long as an Intelligent Creator is not involved.
Why?
That principle only applies to material creation....the Creator is outside of material creation. He is a totally unknown quantity as to "what" he is....but through his interaction with humankind, and his written communication, we know "who" he is.....the rest will be given to us when we have the intellectual capacity to process it, is my guess.
No. As @The Ragin Pagan stated previously, the words 'inherent' and 'inherit' though spelled similarly, are different and unrelated.
Inherent has nothing to do with something having been inherited.
ETA: Inherent vs inherit - Grammarist
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Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
With hurricanes and galaxies, it has to do with rotation. Sunflowers evolved it perhaps because it is efficient for them. We don't know why there are so many spirals, but that does not mean we must fill in the gap with a creator. We simply do not know, though we do know humans a tendency and fondness of noticing patterns and attaching meaning to them.
Generally speaking, scientific laws become laws devised precise mathematics explanations to back them up. This is why we have "Ohms law" and "germ theory." As for math, it is perhaps the universal language, and it's one of our very few tools for definitely and objectively proving something as true.
A creator may be natural or supernatural. We don't know, and we don't even know if there is one.
Speculation alone does not become fact, but it is the foundation of hypothesis, which may or may not become a fact.
I don't believe either. As for the idea of life on Earth have Martian origins, I listed the three facts that have lead to that idea. Interplanetary rock exchanges are things that happen. Mars did have water. Some life forms do survive even in outer space. It's not really that "fanciful," but rather quite mundane.
Thank you...lets explore these.....
Cultural norms and expectations: We as a species are created to be compliant when it is demonstrated to be for our benefit to follow certain rules. We can see by experience what happens when individuals step outside those boundaries and ignoring any warning about the effect of their non-conformity.
Sexual freedom for example results in STD's.....awful physical ailments that are certainly not a reward for stepping outside of God-ordained marriage. These diseases have become rampant but because humans will not give up this pleasure, they will pay for that freedom in ways they do not want to. Sexual morality has been part of human culture for as long as there have been humans living in a community. Marriage is seen in just about every faith system in the world.....so throwing those cultural norms and expectations aside has not been without its penalties. Free will exercised in those areas has not resulted in a good outcome for the majority.
marketing and advertisement: This is perception management plain and simple. The powers who control the wealth of the world know how to part people from their money. The best way is, of course, to give it up willingly for something that could be detrimental, but advertised as beneficial....a must have.
motivational interviewing, operant and classical conditioning: We are all conditioned to an extent by our upbringing, so to motive someone to go against their inherent beliefs requires that we make such a thing attractive...beneficial...good 'marketing' will accomplish that.
substance dependency, numerous mental illnesses, past experiences effecting out current behaviors, subconscious processes, and the environment we live in: I have kept these under one heading because I believe that they are all interrelated.
Mental illnesses have escalated with the increasing use of drugs in our society...legal or not. Substance dependency is really people self-medicating their depression and anxiety.....but we unsure which comes first. Depression has many causes, not the least of which is a loss of hope that anything will ever get better. Past experiences demonstrate that if we repeat the behavior, we will wind up in the same place of despair. The environment in which we are raised has a great bearing on the adults we will become, though sometimes it is our peers who influence us more than our parents. Regardless of which it is....the outcome is the same. We abandon good sense or good morals and beneficial practices because we give in to the pressure imposed on us by the expectation of others. There is so much abuse and drugs are a temporary way to escape the chaos of the mind that it causes.
We have a moral compass, (our conscience) but most people are so inclined to surround themselves with other 'magnetic' forces that the compass never truly reads 'due North'. It leads people all over the place. Behaviors are repeated that are shown to be detrimental and yet people still continue to go the wrong way. Why?
Is it that we don't have free will...or is it that we are often too weak to exercise it? It takes guts to stand up and be different....to stop running with the mob. To stop being a victim. That is the exercise of free will that is recommended in the Bible. No one can "make" us do anything against our will unless they intimidate us in some way. The early Christians demonstrated that their free will was not going to be tampered with even under the threat of death. No amount of intimidation would make them go against what they held to be true. Why?
I exercise my free will every day in a multitude of ways...one that enjoy the most is showing on whose side of this issue I stand very proudly. I am not ashamed to declare my faith and belief in my Creator, but I cannot force anyone to share it. It is a conviction that doesn't come from the intellect...it comes from a whole other place....and so does the courage to fight for it.
I will not cower in a corner or admit defeat just because someone with a degree in science wants to promote the idea that the Creator does not exist; if they don't believe then we shouldn't either.....all I see in that is a desperate attempt to justify their stance and being part of a majority, makes them think that they are right.
I will take an informed minority over a misinformed majority any day.
