Just Putting Things in Perspective....

[Shadow Wolf]

We as a species are created to be compliant when it is demonstrated to be for our benefit to follow certain rules.

Because we evolved this way. It's not something we chose.

The powers who control the wealth of the world know how to part people from their money.

Meaning they are manipulating people to give people, not that people are purchasing these things of their own "free will."

We are all conditioned to an extent by our upbringing,

And thus not practicing this "free will."

Mental illnesses have escalated with the increasing use of drugs in our society.

That is false. And ignoring how mental illness and disorders effects people. Such as, many, many people have been able to tell I have Asperger's by the way I act and behave. I didn't choose to display these traits, but it's how it happens.

Substance dependency is really people self-medicating their depression and anxiety.

False, and drug dependency isn't something you can so easily lump like that. Are those addicted to caffeine and nicotine self-medicating?

Past experiences demonstrate that if we repeat the behavior, we will wind up in the same place of despair.

This doesn't fit for all the different ways past experiences can effect us. Such as, people who were repeatedly traumatized as children on average live 20 years less because the past traumas effect the way their brains develop, and the choices they may make can lead to premature death.

The environment in which we are raised has a great bearing on the adults we will become,

Meaning that due to these effects we did not choose these, and our will was not free to do so. Also, the environment are in effects as both adults and children.

though sometimes it is our peers who influence us more than our parents.

Peers and friends are both a part of our environment. We do not freely choose this influence of our own will as it's something that just happens.

I exercise my free will every day in a multitude of ways...one that enjoy the most is showing on whose side of this issue I stand very proudly. I am not ashamed to declare my faith and belief in my Creator, but I cannot force anyone to share it. It is a conviction that doesn't come from the intellect...it comes from a whole other place....and so does the courage to fight for it.

That doesn't demonstrate free will. It's reasonably predictable that a Christian would profess their faith, just as the adherents of any religion can be reasonably expected to.

 

[Deeje]

No. As @The Ragin Pagan stated previously, the words 'inherent' and 'inherit' though spelled similarly, are different and unrelated.

Inherent has nothing to do with something having been inherited.

ETA: Inherent vs inherit - Grammarist

I understand the difference in meaning and spelling but, be that as it may.....what is "inherent" in humans is their traits and characteristics. It is something that 'goes with the territory' so to speak.
Since these traits and characteristics are passed onto children, what is inherent becomes the next generation's 'inheritance'. That is how I see it.

Coming from a family with inherited genetic disorders, I can see with my own eyes what heredity means to the next generation. Not all inheritances are good.

 

[sayak83]

What is "inherent nature"? What processes make things "inherent"? If you 'inherit' something. it always comes from someone else....so who is that 'someone'?



Some things never change because they do so well as they are. Change comes from necessity and this is what we see in nature. Creatures adapt because of change, and adaptation is something all creatures are capable of doing....a change in environment or food source will force such a change, but if there are no changes to adapt to, things remain as they are. No?

No it's inherent.It's the essential and intrinsic attribute of these objects. Does not come from something else. No relation with inheritance at all.

the definition of inherent

Another way to put it is that these are from their own Self-nature, and requires no source other than its own self. Ceaseless transformation of shape and form is the intrinsic Self-nature of all material realm, which has existed and will continue to exist eternally.

No. Change is spontaneous. There is nothing in the realm of the physical that does not change ceaselessly. This is why there is the sense of time after all. Stasis is an illusion caused by our inability to detect the change that is ongoing in all things.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

It wouldn't require that every instance be completely nullified, and this is where compatibilism comes into play.

I think it would. To cut to it, free will is essentially held to be "the ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded." Compatibilism necessitates free will, as it is the belief that free will and determinism (in essence, that everything is determined based on the variables that you list and more) are compatible with one another.

So in either instance, free will exists. What changes is the extent to which it is used. Contrast the human experience to that of a computer. A computer does nothing without our input. Programs don't run on their own, or following semi-independent schedules that we assign to them. They (thankfully) do not have free will. We, on the other hand, do, Even considering things like marketing, motivation, or cultural norms; if free will did not exist then those things would not be necessary, or would not exist either.

Having outside influence doesn't negate the existence of free will, because our decision wasn't impeded. Even when our actions and decisions are decided for us, this doesn't negate the existence of free will because there are situations and instances where our actions and decisions are unimpeded.

Even then, marketing isn't a guaranteed. I'm told that the new iPhone [whatever number they're on] is the best in the industry, and I absolutely need it to remain on top of the latest trends. It's got all these nifty specs, fast connection, and is probably more compatible with the providers in my area than my Windows Phone is. It has more universal apps, connectivity with other people, etc, etc. And yet I decide not to get one. I have the money and the means to do so, I just don't like Apple. That decision is mine, and the reasons that decision is made are mine. The will behind that decision is not determined by marketing or culture - in fact, it's somewhat contrary to it - it is simply an extension of my [free] will.

We can easily prove a car exists because it has physical properties.

Then something intangible, perhaps, like love? Does love really exist, or is it nothing more than chemical addiction?

Yes...."Inherent" means "existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute.

Congrats; that's exactly what I said.

Laughter and humor for example are inherent in all humans.

Except for people with no sense of humor and sociopaths. Also forgetting that humor is largely a cultural thing; what one society finds funny another might not.

When something is "inborn" it is passed down from parent to child. It is inherited.

No. To inherit something is to receive it upon the death of it's former holder; something like money, lands, or leadership roles. Being born with traits inherent to humans doesn't kill our parents, and we do not "inherit" them.

 

[Deeje]

Because we evolved this way. It's not something we chose.

Its got nothing to do with evolving. Its called conditioning. We are raised with certain expectations as to our behavior, modified by community expectations and standards exercised wherever we live....and we are often punished when we fail to comply. Even a dog will respond to this kind of conditioning.

When we reach adulthood, we are then in a position to validate what we have been taught as a child...or to completely invalidate it. That is an exercise of free will. It will probably come at a cost, but some are willing to pay it even if it means being cast out of a family or community. They will not fit in with that community any longer any way. Many choose to start a new life in a new location.

Meaning they are manipulating people to give people, not that people are purchasing these things of their own "free will."

They are fooled into thinking that it is given of their own free will....in much the same way as political campaigns are designed to make one candidate out to be a hero and the other as dangerous as Attila the Hun. We are all manipulated in some way by the system we live in....whether we acknowledge it or not. It doesn't mean we can't exercise free will once we wake up to whats happening. The commercial system has been milking us for decades but they make us think its our idea to hand them our money.

And thus not practicing this "free will."

The conditioning lasts only until we break out of the mold cast for us by others. Free will is a precious possession but not everyone has discovered how to use it wisely.

That is false. And ignoring how mental illness and disorders effects people. Such as, many, many people have been able to tell I have Asperger's by the way I act and behave. I didn't choose to display these traits, but it's how it happens.

Autism spectrum disorders are at almost epidemic proportions these days. I personally think they are linked to vaccinations, and I have done a lot of research into this. I have many friends with children who have various expressions of the Autism spectrum. All of their children were vaccinated. This introduces toxins into very immature immune systems.
The Amish refuse to vaccinate their children and autism is rare in their ranks.

Mental illness has been around since time immemorial, but my point was that it has increased exponentially with the abuse of drugs. A visit to any psyche ward will reveal the number of patients whose mental illness is the direct result of drug abuse. Brains are so damaged that recovery is not possible for many of them.

People's horrendous childhoods often lead to self destructive practices and substance abuse. It is a form of easy self medication. They know they need 'medicine' but its too easy to get what you need without a prescription or a consult with a GP.

False, and drug dependency isn't something you can so easily lump like that. Are those addicted to caffeine and nicotine self-medicating?

Any addiction is a form of self-medicating. I don't know anyone who is addicted to alcohol or hard drugs who does not have deep psychological issues at the base of them.

Caffeine is very addictive too and the reason why coffee shops do such a roaring trade. Drugs of dependency aren't always on prescription. Its a stressful life. Tobacco too is a nerve calmer....but oh so addictive. Once you are hooked, it's very hard to give them up. This is why I am in favor of the legalization of medicinal cannabis...it is not addictive and a real help with a wide variety of medical issues, including addiction. Unlike alcohol, it does not make people aggressive or violent....and is not a catalyst for domestic violence.

This doesn't fit for all the different ways past experiences can effect us. Such as, people who were repeatedly traumatized as children on average live 20 years less because the past traumas effect the way their brains develop, and the choices they may make can lead to premature death.

I was more talking about past experience with drug abuse and other destructive behaviors. Those who have endless rounds of rehab, only to come out and start their addiction all over again know where it will take them. They have to stop the cycle and avoid the company and behaviors that keep leading them back. That is a act of a strong will....a free one. It can conquer the addiction if the motivation is as strong as the attraction to the drug is.

Meaning that due to these effects we did not choose these, and our will was not free to do so. Also, the environment are in effects as both adults and children.

No one has free will as a child. Minors are under the care and control of their parents and rightly so. But once they reach adulthood, they are free to choose their own life course. We as parents can only hope we have instilled the correct values and given our children the right example to follow.....but we cannot force them because they have free will. God does not force anyone to do anything against their will. He motivates us to want to do the right thing by others as well as ourselves.

That doesn't demonstrate free will. It's reasonably predictable that a Christian would profess their faith, just as the adherents of any religion can be reasonably expected to.

Having the courage of one's convictions means that we are sure of those convictions in the first place. Nothing halfheartedly done is worth anything. A weak faith is no faith at all. Jesus said that "faith can move mountains".....meaning that mountain-like obstacles can be overcome with a strong faith...even the fear of death can be conquered. I believe that God provides what we need if we know how to tap into his power. I have experienced it many times.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

A computer does nothing without our input.

We don't do anything without input (though we call it stimuli).

They (thankfully) do not have free will.

It hasn't been demonstrated that we have free will, and it's looking like we may not.

Having outside influence doesn't negate the existence of free will, because our decision wasn't impeded.

Yet so often it is. We pick up and use the language of those we associate with. We adapt group mentalities and conformity. Even our very evolution developed us to have pro-social behaviors and to work as a group.

Does love really exist, or is it nothing more than chemical addiction?

The associated chemical reactions cause the emotion we call love. The same with depression and anxiety. Just because they are caused by chemicals doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Its got nothing to do with evolving.

We evolved as social animals. It's why we aren't lone creatures like tigers or snakes.

I personally think they are linked to vaccinations

They aren't.

No one has free will as a child.

Then how does it develop as an adult? What changes?

Having the courage of one's convictions means that we are sure of those convictions in the first place. Nothing halfheartedly done is worth anything. A weak faith is no faith at all. Jesus said that "faith can move mountains".....meaning that mountain-like obstacles can be overcome with a strong faith...even the fear of death can be conquered. I believe that God provides what we need if we know how to tap into his power. I have experienced it many times.

That doesn't demonstrate free will.

 

[Deeje]

Deep thought for the thread.....
On top of a tall building looking down,
your uncle looks like an ant.

(It works better when spoken.)

Its the way of the world Revolt.....transgender is the thing now. My sister's brother-in-law used to be an uncle....now he's an ant.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

We don't do anything without input (though we call it stimuli).

I think you know what I meant. Whereas a computer cannot act without outside input, we can.

It hasn't been demonstrated that we have free will, and it's looking like we may not.

It has. Everything that we do demonstrates free will. You choose to reply to my posts here, you choose to put your text colored pink. Is anyone twisting your arm to do so? No. They are purely choices that you make; extensions of your [free] will.

We adapt group mentalities and conformity.

And when that conformity is broken? When the group mentality is abandoned? These things happen quite often, so it cannot logically be said that free will does not exist.

The associated chemical reactions cause the emotion we call love.

Do they cause it, or are the associated with it? Because as anyone who has ever been in love will tell you, it's not all flowers and dopamine. Often there's frustration, anger, even jealousy from time to time.

Just because they are caused by chemicals doesn't mean they don't exist.

And so too with free will. Just because we may, at times, be influenced by outside elements or social expectations does not mean that free will doesn't exist.

 

[Deeje]

We evolved as social animals. It's why we aren't lone creatures like tigers or snakes.

Social animals know that they must form families and troupes....but why? Seems like design to me. Like the creatures that mate for life...we are among the monogamous ones...but why?

What makes apes and elephants and lions social animals, (totally unrelated) deeply aware of their place in the troupe or herd?...but not like the lone creatures?

We are all like computers...useless without our programmer. How do you describe instinct? This is what shapes animals behavior.

Do squirrels consciously plan to store food for the winter?
Who teaches bees to perform their various tasks in a hive?

They aren't.

I believe that they are and so do many others who study the stats. Since the damage is permanent, sometimes requiring a lifetime of care, if they find that vaccinations were the contributing factor to the epidemic of autism.....imagine the law suit? No medico will ever be allowed to publicly even hint at the possibility without some dire retribution. There is a witch hunt on as we speak. Some doctors are bucking the system and speaking up, but on the quiet.

How do you account for the low rate of autism among the Amish?

Then how does it develop as an adult? What changes?

Maturity is recognized in law. That's why you can't legally drive on a public road until you are 'of age'...and why you can't legally drink alcohol until the law says you can. What changes? Your age and your level of legal accountability. Children are subject to their parent's authority until the law recognizes that they are legal adults...in Australia, that is 18. No one can force an adult to do things that are against their will.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Social animals know that they must form families and troupes....but why? Seems like design to me. Like the creatures that mate for life...we are among the monogamous ones...but why?

An understanding of how life evolves would help. It all boils down to genetics. Females have rather limited reproduction chances. It takes a lot of energy on their part to conceive and bear a child. It is in their best interest to have a partner that will stick around. Monogamy is largely female driven.

What makes apes and elephants and lions social animals, (totally unrelated) deeply aware of their place in the troupe or herd?...but not like the lone creatures?

We are all like computers...useless without our programmer. How do you describe instinct? This is what shapes animals behavior.

Do squirrels consciously plan to store food for the winter?
Who teaches bees to perform their various tasks in a hive?

<sigh>

Perhaps if you stopped with the Gish Gallops. Focus on one point at a time.

I believe that they are and so do many others who study the stats. Since the damage is permanent, sometimes requiring a lifetime of care, if they find that vaccinations were the contributing factor to the epidemic of autism.....imagine the law suit? No medico will ever be allowed to publicly even hint at the possibility without some dire retribution. There is a witch hunt on as we speak. Some doctors are bucking the system and speaking up, but on the quiet.

The claims of anti-vaxers have been pretty much refuted. All of them have been shown to be groundless.

How do you account for the low rate of autism among the Amish?

For the same reason that autism has "risen" in the general population. Better testing has found more autism. People were still autistic, they were merely called "different", "weird" etc. The Amish have a very low rate of testing so they will have a very low rate of autism.

Maturity is recognized in law. That's why you can't legally drive on a public road until you are 'of age'...and why you can't legally drink alcohol until the law says you can. What changes? Your age and your level of legal accountability. Children are subject to their parent's authority until the law recognizes that they are legal adults...in Australia, that is 18. No one can force an adult to do things that are against their will.

Actually that is a social construct to protect children. Some children may be able to make an informed choice most cannot. There is no easy way to tell ahead of time whether someone is making a mature decision at that point. Heck, many young people over 18 cannot make a proper "informed consent". The age of consent is arbitrary and a best judgement of when people will be able to decide such actions for themselves.

 

[Sapiens]

Have you nothing but logical fallacies, arguments from ignorance and from incredulity?

 

[Deeje]

An understanding of how life evolves would help. It all boils down to genetics. Females have rather limited reproduction chances. It takes a lot of energy on their part to conceive and bear a child. It is in their best interest to have a partner that will stick around. Monogamy is largely female driven.

I have never found this to be the case. Females usually have to fight competing males off. If she doesn't, then the alpha male has to. Males are never the problem in any species.
When did you ever see female animals having difficulty falling pregnant? Seriously.

Monogamy is programmed into many species. Others have harems of females, others have no mate to help them raise their young at all. What is the determining factor? I believe they are created that way. You of course will call on your blanket explanation of "natural selection" which is science's substitute for "Goddidit".

The claims of anti-vaxers have been pretty much refuted. All of them have been shown to be groundless.

Refuted by whom? The drug company researchers who are laughing all the way to the bank? Denial is a long river.

For the same reason that autism has "risen" in the general population. Better testing has found more autism. People were still autistic, they were merely called "different", "weird" etc. The Amish have a very low rate of testing so they will have a very low rate of autism.

It was a local doctor who treats Amish patients who reported finding little to no autism among them. I think he would know.
They do not vaccinate their children. I personally would not allow a vaccine near one of mine....especially not the MMR or flu shots.

A friend of mine has twins who both contracted a very bad dose of chicken pox. Both had been vaccinated.
Another woman and her daughter both got whooping cough even though they had both had their shots. I almost lost my own mother after a dreadful reaction to a flu shot. These are just in my direct circle. They are not as safe and effective as they are claimed to be. It's just more money in the bank for drug companies.

Actually that is a social construct to protect children. Some children may be able to make an informed choice most cannot. There is no easy way to tell ahead of time whether someone is making a mature decision at that point. Heck, many young people over 18 cannot make a proper "informed consent". The age of consent is arbitrary and a best judgement of when people will be able to decide such actions for themselves.

I was talking about the law, not necessarily the level of maturity in an individual. It has to draw the line somewhere. The legal age of "adulthood" in Australia used to be 21, but they dropped it to 18. I do not know by what stretch of whose imagination an 18 year old can be classified as an adult, but that is the law. When children are mature enough to legally be accountable, you just have to hope that their decisions and the consequences of them, are well understood. Free will can then be exercised in the right way.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

When did you ever see female animals having difficulty falling pregnant? Seriously.

Post-menopausal pregnancies are (or rather, were) exceedingly rare and extremely dangerous. Thanks to modern science and medicine it's becoming less risky, but there's still that pesky biological fact that a woman's eggs are numbered.

Monogamy is programmed into many species.

No it's not.

Refuted by whom?

Everybody but the few nuts who - like Flat-Earthers - continue to deny clear and concise evidence.

I personally would not allow a vaccine near one of mine....especially not the MMR or flu shots.

Then you are a danger to society and your children, and a direct aid to the resurgence of many preventable diseases.

It's just more money in the bank for drug companies.

Except for the ones that are free, $10, or no more than $100. But oh, those Pharmaceuticals! Better off to just give that money away in tithing, right? At least that's not going to waste and not being taxed.

I was talking about the law, not necessarily the level of maturity in an individual. It has to draw the line somewhere.

And as explained to you, the line is arbitrary. Clearly evident in, as you yourself point out, sometimes it changes.

When children are mature enough to legally be accountable, you just have to hope that their decisions and the consequences of them, are well understood.

Kind of like all the logically bankrupt troglodytes who proudly tout the "My Faith Votes" bumper stickers? I've seen more sense from 18 year olds than I have 58 year olds at times.

Free will can then be exercised in the right way.

So often when I see this said, it rather means "in the right way, but only this right way." Free will being used "the right way" would mean people doing things that you disagree with and that are, at times, incredibly foolish. It's not a matter of maturity and understanding consequences.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Seems like design to me.

There is no design necessary though. Our ancestors have always bonded and functioned as groups, and it is how we evolved.

if they find that vaccinations were the contributing factor to the epidemic of autism.

And yet despite tons and tons of research this link between vaccines and autism has never been found. It's also damning for such claims that we can usually diagnose autism before a child is old enough for the vaccines.
And, even if they did, I'd much rather have the autism I do have than having a childhood that knew polio and iron lungs.

How do you account for the low rate of autism among the Amish?

Considering they tend to be highly isolationists, they probably have a low rate of everything as they aren't going to psychiatrists.

Maturity is recognized in law.

At arbitrary times. It used to be people were considered an adult once they reached the onset of puberty. Today we mostly consider it 18 years of age. The brain, however, does not reach full maturation until about early-to-mid 20s.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I have never found this to be the case. Females usually have to fight competing males off. If she doesn't, then the alpha male has to. Males are never the problem in any species.
When did you ever see female animals having difficulty falling pregnant? Seriously.

That is because you have never studied biology. Females do not "usually have to fight competing males off". They very often pick and choose. It is very common in bird populations. That is why in many species of birds it is the male that is the good looking one. He has to attract a female.

Monogamy is programmed into many species. Others have harems of females, others have no mate to help them raise their young at all. What is the determining factor? I believe they are created that way. You of course will call on your blanket explanation of "natural selection" which is science's substitute for "Goddidit".

No, a blanket "natural selection" is never good enough. ]One must explain why certain traits are selected for. That they fall under the wide scope of natural selection is only what one would expect. In fact some have claimed that natural selection is so obviously true it is almost a tautology.

Refuted by whom? The drug company researchers who are laughing all the way to the bank? Denial is a long river.

No, by scientists that investigate the claims of crazy people. And now you are projecting your flaws upon others. And you stole one of my favorite jokes. Actually I tell people that they need to get into a shorter river. Why did you not look into how the original claim was totally blown out of the water? You should do your own research, just try to use reliable sources.

It was a local doctor who treats Amish patients who reported finding little to no autism among them. I think he would know.
They do not vaccinate their children. I personally would not allow a vaccine near one of mine....especially not the MMR or flu shots.

One doctor? What was his specialty? If he was not an expert in the field his claims would have little more meaning than mine. And you are not only a danger to your own children, you are a danger to others.

A friend of mine has twins who both contracted a very bad dose of chicken pox. Both had been vaccinated.
Another woman and her daughter both got whooping cough even though they had both had their shots. I almost lost my own mother after a dreadful reaction to a flu shot. These are just in my direct circle. They are not as safe and effective as they are claimed to be. It's just more money in the bank for drug companies.

Your friend may have lied to you. The chickenpox vaccine is extremely effective, and when it fails the cases tend to be mild:

Vaccines: VPD-VAC/Varicella/Vaccine Effectiveness and Duration of Protection

People do lie, especially if they feel guilty about what they did to their kids.

Now your whooping cough claim may be true. That vaccine is not always effective. Still the incidence of whooping cough is way down. The problem with vaccines is that viruses do evolve:


Whooping Cough Vaccine Not as Effective as We Thought

So, not as effective as it could be, but still a life saver.

I was talking about the law, not necessarily the level of maturity in an individual. It has to draw the line somewhere. The legal age of "adulthood" in Australia used to be 21, but they dropped it to 18. I do not know by what stretch of whose imagination an 18 year old can be classified as an adult, but that is the law. When children are mature enough to legally be accountable, you just have to hope that their decisions and the consequences of them, are well understood. Free will can then be exercised in the right way.

You will also quite often find a difference between "age of consent" and what is considered to be an adult legally. In Australia the age of consent is 16 or 17 years old depending upon location:

Age of consent laws

In the U.S. the age consent is between 16 and 18, in Canada it is 16, and in Mexico it varies widely as low as 12 in some areas, yikes

And yes, the age of when one can say "yes" to sex varies, but I can't see anyone at the age of 12 with the maturity to make a proper informed consent.

 

[Polymath257]

Thank you...your honesty is refreshing.



What does "entirely natural" actually mean? We hear this word "natural" bandied about a lot, but most people assume things about the meaning of this word.

"Natural" according to one dictionary definition is "existing in or derived from nature; not made or caused by humankind."

Just because something is not made by humans, doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't made by some other intelligent entity. As you said, we don't really know if such an entity exists except by what we observe.
But when design and planning are clearly demonstrated, then to me one would naturally assume that a designer was at work and that he had a purpose in what he has made. Isn't that logical?

If you came across an art gallery with exquisite works of art...paintings and sculptures....you don't naturally assume that there was no artist, so why does science pretend there is no Creator?

The reason we can deduce an artist is that we know that natural processes do not produce things like paintings, symphonies, or sculptures like what we see from artists.

When you see what is out there beyond the boundaries of the earth, and see how magnificent it is and the sheer size and scope of it.....is it not the grandest work of art we have ever seen?

And the difference is that we know in all of these cases that natural processes *do* form structures like what we see. The galaxy you showed is formed by the natural processes of gravity. The nova remnant from thenatural processes that destroy stars and the nebula from the natural processes when gases from one source impinge on those from another.

If science doesn't really know, then what is the point of arguing about origins? Can it not just be content with a theory being a theory? We all know that evolution is no more provable than creation, so why do so many arrogantly pretend that it is fact when it clearly isn't?

On the contrary, given the types of feedback that genetics produces, evolution is inevitable given the fact of life.

If this is the work of an all powerful Creator, then what does that mean for his intelligent creation who can only discern the 'fringes of his ways'?

Very little that I can see.

Exactly.....the law of 'cause and effect' shows us that things don't just 'come into being'...they have to have an originator....a designer and maker.....a first cause.....that is logical.

Actually, very few things have an *intelligent* cause. The vast majority of causes are natural ones that follow the basic laws of nature (such as gravity, electromagnetism, etc). Even on Earth, there are very few things that are made by an intelligence. Most structures have no designer behind them.

That doesn't mean they are uncaused. it just means the cause isn't an intelligence, but is a natural process.

Offspring come with inherited characteristics from a gene pool. Adaptation can change inherited traits but how far can adaptation go? What can science really tell us about that without resorting to suggestion and conjecture?

Quite a bit, actually. There are two different things going on when populations adapt: the average value for some properties shifts, which eats up variability. But with mutations, that variability is restored and adaptation can continue once it is.

What role does educated guessing play in science?

It provides the hypotheses that we then go out to test.

Knowing where life came from is crucial to our understanding of everything IMO. Knowing where the Universe originated answers a lot of unanswered questions that we earth-bound humans have about the big picture. Only we need those answers.

The fact that science has no big picture makes its assertions very empty for a lot of people. We are unique on this planet because we alone seek answers to our many questions. Animals don't care why they are here....they are just programmed to eat, drink and reproduce. They live in the "now"....we are NOT like them at all. Our intellect demands reasons for everything....science has no reasons....no purpose for our existence....and no future hope that things will improve as we see everything going downhill.

We can't live in the "now" because unless we plan for the future with intelligent decisions, made by humans with more than just big egos, our whole world is doomed.

To me, without God, I cannot make sense of anything. Without God there is no hope of a better future....left in the hands of corruptible human beings I see no future.[/QUOTE]

 

[Polymath257]

Yes...."Inherent" means "existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute.
"any form of mountaineering has its inherent dangers"
synonyms: intrinsic, innate, immanent, built-in, inborn, ingrained, deep-rooted"

For something to be "inherent" it is permanently programmed into the genetics in the form of a characteristic or attribute. Laughter and humor for example are inherent in all humans. When something is "inborn" it is passed down from parent to child. It is inherited.

Not all things inherent are inherited. Nor vice versa. The inherent nature of, say, water, is not inherited in any way.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Awwww hazard a guess Shadow Wolf...we all have our theories on the nature of things. Is "I dunno" really all you have?

Without a Creator, how do you explain any of it?

What is wrong with "this is the way it is?" Why can't it be that there are simply immutable, physical rules that govern the action, inaction and interaction of all matter and energy in the universe? That those rules simply "are", without the need for further explanation or storytelling?

Think of it this way... without those rules in place, we wouldn't exist. Something else might, but not us. Does the fact that it was us necessitate a "designer?" How does that follow? Without using a lot of imagination, it certainly doesn't describe the universe we interact with on a day to day basis. God doesn't appear to be here... the rules, however... they ARE here, whether God is here or not, we are subject to their sway. There is way more evidence for "this is the way it is" than there is for God. A whole universe full of evidence in fact.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

It's not really a law, and even if entirely true then it must logically follow that even this creator would have a cause.

Except that cause and effect did not become a phenomenon until shortly after creation ergo a creator would not be subject to cause and effect.