Justification…Is it works or faith alone?

[Sabour]

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What is your point here ?

 

[Simplelogic]

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Bad translation:

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work anomian

Anomian = LAW NEGATION

 

[joshua3886]

People shouldn't be rewarded just for believing in the right religion or god or whatever. It should be only works.

 

[Muffled]

Bad translation:

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work anomian

Anomian = LAW NEGATION

I believe not everything bad is written as a law. Did you know that God does not approve of fallacio. I don't believe there is a law against it but God is against it.

 

[Muffled]

What is your point here ?

I believe my point is that the good works are counted as iniquity if the person does not know Jesus as Lord.

 

[Muffled]

People shouldn't be rewarded just for believing in the right religion or god or whatever. It should be only works.

Try telling your boss that your good widgets should be acceptable when he wanted you to produce gadgets instead.

 

[Simplelogic]

I believe not everything bad is written as a law. Did you know that God does not approve of fallacio. I don't believe there is a law against it but God is against it.

What do you mean. Why would you assume YHVH does not approve of fallacio?

 

[Simplelogic]

I believe my point is that the good works are counted as iniquity if the person does not know Jesus as Lord.

This is a sad belief. The majority of the world still has no clue who Yeshua is.

 

[JM2C]

Paul's quote rearranged the phrase and left out the pronoun "he". You may be thinking, "What's the difference? Aren't they still saying the same thing?" Answer; not at all! The question at hand is, to whom is this pronoun "he" referring? "

In both Genesis and Romans there is no doubt that the subject was Abraham. Moses and Paul could not be talking about another person here other than Abraham. There are only 3 characters here and one of them was narrating, and that is, Moses. By eliminating Moses we have God and Abraham. Now, if we say that the pronoun “HE” in Genesis 15:6 was Abraham then that verse will come out like this:

Ge 15:6 And he/Abraham believed in Jehovah; and He/Abraham reckoned it to him for righteousness.

Instead of:

Ge 15:6 And he/Abraham believed in Jehovah; and He/God reckoned it to him for righteousness.

 

[JM2C]

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." James 2:21-23

But James goes about arguing that Abraham's faith was a faith

made of works, as opposed to Paul's faith without works

Genesis 15:6 is before Genesis 22 or work in Genesis 22 is the byproduct of Faith in Genesis 15:6, or without Genesis 15:6, i.e., Faith, Work in Genesis 22 would not have taken place.

IOW, James was saying that work is the byproduct of faith on which Abraham was justified by God in Genesis 15:6. There was no disagreement between Paul’s and James’ epistle if you read it right.

 

[JM2C]

My guess is that James had copies of Paul's letters in front of him when he wrote his letter and he mistakenly assumed Paul had quoted Genesis accurately, probably because it sounded very close to what he remembered of it.

So he used Paul's quote and went about refuting Paul's doctrine on other logical grounds. But in doing this, he appears to have agreed with Paul that Abraham was justified by faith. After all, that's what Paul's quote from Genesis appears to indicate.

If James had gone down to the local Synagogue and scrolled through the book of Genesis to see if Paul's quote was perfectly accurate, there is little doubt he would have dealt with Paul's doctrine differently.

How could James possibly do that if his wrote his epistle before Romans or Galatians? You know we are having a hard time proving what was written already but here you are guessing on what James and Paul did or did not do.

 

[Simplelogic]

In both Genesis and Romans there is no doubt that the subject was Abraham. Moses and Paul could not be talking about another person here other than Abraham. There are only 3 characters here and one of them was narrating, and that is, Moses. By eliminating Moses we have God and Abraham. Now, if we say that the pronoun “HE” in Genesis 15:6 was Abraham then that verse will come out like this:

Ge 15:6 And he/Abraham believed in Jehovah; and He/Abraham reckoned it to him for righteousness.

Instead of:

Ge 15:6 And he/Abraham believed in Jehovah; and He/God reckoned it to him for righteousness.

This is not the way the Hebrew language works. Whenever the personal pronoun is used it is always in reference to something previously said. The subject of the text is speaking of Abraham…not God. But you have to read the whole verse in context for it to make sense.

5And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6And he (Abraham) believed in the LORD; and he (Abraham) counted it to him (YHVH) for righteousness. 7And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it. Gen 15:5-7

Abraham considered YHVH righteous and that He would fulfilled the oath that He just offered. As I already explained, this interpretation is proven by this following text.

"Sojourn in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father. And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; BECAUSE Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My Laws." Genesis 26:3-5

 

[Simplelogic]

Genesis 15:6 is before Genesis 22 or work in Genesis 22 is the byproduct of Faith in Genesis 15:6, or without Genesis 15:6, i.e., Faith, Work in Genesis 22 would not have taken place.

IOW, James was saying that work is the byproduct of faith on which Abraham was justified by God in Genesis 15:6. There was no disagreement between Paul’s and James’ epistle if you read it right.

I disagree. James sums up his point nicely:

... You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. . … James 2:24

 

[Simplelogic]

How could James possibly do that if his wrote his epistle before Romans or Galatians? You know we are having a hard time proving what was written already but here you are guessing on what James and Paul did or did not do.

James is confronting a doctrine. A doctrine which was created by Paul. Namely, that a man's faith (alone) makes him righteous.

People shouldn't be rewarded just for believing in the right religion or god or whatever. It should be only works.

Agreed. Works are the clearest demonstration of the heart.

 

[joshua3886]

Try telling your boss that your good widgets should be acceptable when he wanted you to produce gadgets instead.

That has nothing to do with works, in fact it has nothing to do with anything at all. How does not following orders at work have anything to do with being rewarded for faith? Working hard means doing what your boss said, pretty simple. I'm trying to figure out what your argument has to do with faith.

 

[JM2C]

James is confronting a doctrine. A doctrine which was created by Paul. Namely, that a man's faith (alone) makes him righteous.


Agreed. Works are the clearest demonstration of the heart.

Chronologically speaking the book of James first then the Galatians and Romans. IOW, James could not have been reading any of Paul's epistles to compare them to his epistle.

 

[JM2C]

I disagree. James sums up his point nicely:

... You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. . … James 2:24

Genesis 22 is the demonstration of Abraham’s faith in Genesis 15:6, the reality of his justification before God.

It’s like one cannot be sanctified by the word of God if one is not truly justified.

If one is truly justified by faith then one should produce work and that’s what Abraham did.

Jn 3:8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

 

[Simplelogic]

Chronologically speaking the book of James first then the Galatians and Romans. IOW, James could not have been reading any of Paul's epistles to compare them to his epistle.

You may want to rethink the dating of James. Most scholars have no reason for their dating. Many of them are using backwards logic and assuming that James was in agreement with Paul. Paul introduced the concept of faith alone. James clearly refutes this concept in a clear an concise way. Even using the exact scriptures that Paul used to make his argument!

James versus Paul

 

[JM2C]

You may want to rethink the dating of James. Most scholars have no reason for their dating. Many of them are using backwards logic and assuming that James was in agreement with Paul. Paul introduced the concept of faith alone. James clearly refutes this concept in a clear an concise way. Even using the exact scriptures that Paul used to make his argument!

James versus Paul

Great if you can provide the dates and post them

 

[Simplelogic]

Great if you can provide the dates and post them

James died in 62 AD. This is the latest possible date for his letter. Any suggested date before this is speculative, as most scholars admit. We are left to reason and logic when it comes to throwing out possible dates.