tarasan
Well-Known Member
U don't unless u are trying to convince others.
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Justify your belief???
- Thread starter Spirit of Light
- Start date
The don't have to justify their beliefs. The only reason that they would need to is if the believer also wished to understand what is actually true.
I believe there's a giant diamond buried in my backyard that could make me fabulously rich. This is very comfortable, and as I don't need all that money right now, I can leave it where it is, and enjoy the belief that it'll be there when I need it. When the need arises, however, and I start digging...
See, if I can never actually find the diamond (which would "justify my belief" in it), then it might as well not have even been there in the first place.
Some people are comfortable holding onto their beliefs alone. Some of us are actually interested in knowing what is real (or "true" to use another word).
I'm an atheist, and I don't ask believers to justify their personal beliefs -- unless they try to apply those beliefs to me, or try to get me to believe along with them. Then I would tell them they'd need to justify those beliefs TO ME (not to themselves) first.
But it's a very odd thing, you know, that many believers who do NOT believe in something like evolution, will not believe it no matter how well justified it is. Just try to get a creationist or Intelligent Design advocate to actually go read the science behind evolution -- we've all tried, and they all resist. I presume that is because they are afraid that actually learning the truth would somehow nullify their other beliefs. The fact that it doesn't need to nullify (but might cause them to modify) their beliefs is not sufficient to get them to actually pursue knowledge.
Heyo
Veteran Member
Because it's a loaded question with a false premise.
Spirit of Light
Be who ever you want
I have no reason to say those words you used about your self. I see you as a human being
Spirit of Light
Be who ever you want
Do they?
Certainly some may feel a need to do so but there is no obligation.
HonestJoe
Well-Known Member
Sure, but the question was why would you discuss your own personal beliefs? Whatever we choose to discuss on forums like this, we're inevitably going to be asked to justify our opinions and beliefs. If there is something specific you don't want to have that kind of discussion about, don't raise it. There are plenty of things I choose not to discuss here for all sorts of reasons.
Yes you have, you got several. Mine was in post #31 (Justify your belief???).
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
Fair enough. Apologies for the inference.
Anyone who doesn't wish to be called on to justify a personal belief, whether for or against any particular view regarding religion, can simply stay away from the debate boards at RF.
There are plenty of other boards here dedicated to discussion as distinct from debate.
Simple as that!
osgart
Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Spiritual things are much more difficult to talk about with people who have no regard for anything but the physical. It's as if there is no reality to it if it isn't physical. There are people who would like to take philosophy and religion and throw them in the trash and if your conversation isn't about the physical and it's not science, they deem it meaningless.
Spiritual, and religious subjects often fall into very personal territory. Yet most freedoms we have are rooted in spiritual understandings.
People seem to want to uproot any talk or regard for spirituality, and totally replace culture and perception with cold impersonal scientific jargon. It's very one dimensional, and elitist to the point of being fascist. Any talk about human nature is for the intellectually elite and common sense, practicality, simplicity, and basic kindness is not necessary. As if data and information reflect unbiased facts seen only through their interpretation as the one way, correct way of what is true. Of course, nevermind that data and information can be used in a highly manipulative fashion, and can be interpreted in multiple ways.
Science is the only way of seeing truth, and all other forms of expression absent science are meaningless. Anyone else is not qualified to express anything and should remain silent.
Modern society is very knowledge obsessive, and short on wisdom. It's increasingly a left brained world.
I may be exaggerating. However maybe not at all. It's a culture war, and fight for truth.
Spiritual, and religious subjects often fall into very personal territory. Yet most freedoms we have are rooted in spiritual understandings.
People seem to want to uproot any talk or regard for spirituality, and totally replace culture and perception with cold impersonal scientific jargon. It's very one dimensional, and elitist to the point of being fascist. Any talk about human nature is for the intellectually elite and common sense, practicality, simplicity, and basic kindness is not necessary. As if data and information reflect unbiased facts seen only through their interpretation as the one way, correct way of what is true. Of course, nevermind that data and information can be used in a highly manipulative fashion, and can be interpreted in multiple ways.
Science is the only way of seeing truth, and all other forms of expression absent science are meaningless. Anyone else is not qualified to express anything and should remain silent.
Modern society is very knowledge obsessive, and short on wisdom. It's increasingly a left brained world.
I may be exaggerating. However maybe not at all. It's a culture war, and fight for truth.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
They don't.
But when they start using those beliefs in ways that affect other people, then absolutely those beliefs need to be justified.
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
The don't have to justify their beliefs. The only reason that they would need to is if the believer also wished to understand what is actually true.
I believe there's a giant diamond buried in my backyard that could make me fabulously rich. This is very comfortable, and as I don't need all that money right now, I can leave it where it is, and enjoy the belief that it'll be there when I need it. When the need arises, however, and I start digging...
See, if I can never actually find the diamond (which would "justify my belief" in it), then it might as well not have even been there in the first place.
Some people are comfortable holding onto their beliefs alone. Some of us are actually interested in knowing what is real (or "true" to use another word).
But you don’t believe there’s a giant diamond in your yard, so why pretend you do? It seems you are equating your deliberate act of self deception with someone else’s sincerely held belief. Can you really see into other people’s hearts and minds with that sort of clarity?
Millions of Americans truly believe the last election was stolen -- and the complete lack of evidence, and more than 60 failed court cases (along with a bit of common sense --- how exactly would that have been accomplished?) will never convince them otherwise.
And you see, because they were UNABLE TO JUSTIFY their belief, Joe Biden IS the President, not their orangey-golden idol.
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
Point spectacularly missed, well done. People who think Trump won the election do so in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. That’s not faith, that’s delusion.
In failing to distinguish between faith and delusion, you mirror the deliberate myopia you despise in others; you each see what you want to see, and draw whatever conclusions suit your prejudice.
Not at all. Ask any of the atheists here on RF, or anywhere else that you know, and they will tell you precisely the same thing -- that the things most theists believe fly in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. That's just how we see it. The evidence, whatever evidence we can find, and whatever evidence theists try to present us with, simply do not justify the belief. Therefore, while it might be "faith" to you, it looks just like delusion to many of us.
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
Fair enough I suppose; if that's how faith looks to you, then it appears there is a gulf between us which cannot be bridged. That doesn't mean we can't respect each other's positions though.
Heyo
Veteran Member
Wait ... there's a difference?
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
KWED
Scratching head, scratching knee
They don't have to.
However, if they publicly make extraordinary claims, it seems only reasonable to expect some kind of supporting explanation that goes beyond "it's my belief".
I think the better question is - "Why are religious people so reluctant to support their claims?"