JW's Jesus is Archangel Michael?

[savagewind]

Sounds very much like you better be about correcting your view as to what love is.

If i failed to speak forthrightly to you knowing where your thinking is leading to for you then I would be hating you.

But if you wish to hate me for loving you enough to tell you where you are going wrong, then by all means have at it. You will be part of a huge crowd.

Fragile feelings and slow learning are evil judgements you called imho.

Do you consider yourself a fast learner?

Have you learned yet that love is provoked? Why not? Are you a slow learner too?

 

[savagewind]

Maybe some people here are a little bit deaf.

IS SALVATION BY AN ANGEL?

Why can't anyone say, "yes."?

 

[savagewind]

Salvation is by Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is an angel. Salvation is by an angel.
Michael is pictured leading Heaven's army and guarding the children of God.

Where is it written that Michael provides the means of salvation?

Fighting for God's people and guarding God's people require that there ARE God's people. Jesus does that.

The funny thing is Jehovah's Witnesses and their apologetics fight fiercely that God is ONE. But then they accept that God's image is two.

Jesus Christ is God's representation, but Michael is Jesus so Michael is also God's representation. We have to wonder why YOU can't listen.

 

[savagewind]

Actually, if Michael is Jesus Christ and Michael leads the army of Heaven and Jesus Christ is our salvation then salvation is linked to war. Not a good thing to be true.

I am as certain as can be that salvation is not, has never been and never will be linked to war. That is me calling Jesus Christ The Prince of Peace. I think people who call Jesus Michael can't also call Jesus the prince of peace.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

You are apparently a slow learner.

Yes I am! When someone tries to teach something the Bible clearly doesn't teach, I don't accept it with joy and move on.

In heaven just as John told you, he was the Word of God. Yes, in heaven he was the word to the angels, which is the function of the archangel, the name of Michael indicating that he was the one angel who was like God, obviously because he was with God in the beginning and so had far greater teaching from his Father so as to come to perfectly image his righteousness, which is also why he could be the righteousness of God to us.

Who was the Word, Michael?

Now, his role was not as savior of those angels so it would have been silly to call him Jesus. His role was the Word of God and so he had the name that showed he was like God and the angels needed to respect that so that they too would go on learning through him to be God's righteousness.

This has JW written all over it. Please show where the Bible teaches that Jesus had different roles to play. Did they have Bible study in heaven for the angels? I guess satan didn't learn much from the studies. And now you're saying that Michael is the Word of God spoken of in John 1?

The role changed after sin necessitating a new name which showed him to be the channel of God's salvation to those who had been affected by sin and thus on the road to wrath. But it was not to the angels who fell to sin that God sent him as they were created without sin as was Adam and so they had made their choice.

Again, please give scripture reference to show where God changes Michaels name and role and sent him to be born of a woman. Otherwise, it's just your own interpretation of you reading between the lines to make the Bible say what you want it to say.

Your logic is where things are getting lost and twisted around. Work on it.

There is nothing wrong with my logic. Logic tells me, if Jesus was Michael in heaven before the necessity of a role and name change after sin entered the scene, then everything the Bible says about Jesus before He was born is actually speaking of Michael, because the name or role of Jesus didn't exist.



It truly amazes me how people can deny one teaching, like the Trinity because the Bible does not say, "God is a triune being", but accept another teaching, Jesus and Michael are one and the same, when the Bible does not say, "Michael came to be born of a woman".

 

[Ron Hackel]

Savagewind

I'm obviously not a JW because of my disagreements with Mountainclimber. Angel is not a being, but a job description. It is translated from the Greek word angelos which means a messenger. When Jesus called himself the son of man that didn't make him a created being did it? Jesus is divine, but came to reveal God's true character to the universe. The war in heaven was a verbal dispute. The word translated war is a Greek word meaning an aggressive disputing of ones ideas or principles. Lucifer was making accusations against God in heaven. That is why in the gospels, Jesus Called Satan a liar. The war as it says in Rev 12:7 was fought by Michael and his angels (messengers). Michael was the archangel. Arch means chief. Michael in Hebrew means one who is like God. As Jesus said if you've seen me you've seen the Father. God's messengers were the prophets.

Mankind was created to restore trust in God in the universe. Put these verses together and you'll see this is the case.

EPHESIANS 3 : 10 "His intent (God's plan) was that now, through the church (church is translated from a word meaning the called out ones-disciples), the manifold wisdom of God (how God runs the universe through the law of love) should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms (The created beings Lucifer was bringing into doubt), according to his eternal purpose (This was the plan from the beginning and will be into eternity) which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Mankind had failed up to that time so Jesus jump started it and has given it back to us. Peter says the same thing as Paul.

1 Peter 2 : 9 "But you a chosen people (called out ones), a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."

We were created to show what God is like. It is not happening yet because Lucifer had made several claims that have to be proven wrong using us.

ROMANS 11 ; 16 "If part part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy."

Paul said in Romans 8:23 that the disciples were the firstfruits of the Spirit. After this is all over we will all have the Spirit of God in us. How we treat our children and siblings and how we govern the earth will show the universe what God is like. We are going to have the same Spirit as God has in him so we will act as he would.

COLOSSIANS 1 : 19&20 "For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him (Jesus acted as the Father would), and through him to reconcile all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, BY MAKING PEACE through his blood shed on the cross."

Jesus made peace where there had been war.

Go back to the verse from Peter and see how the Jews were chosen to do what the disciples were to do but failed.

EXODUS 19 : 5&6 "Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of PRIESTS AND A HOLY NATION."

JEREMIAH 13 : 11 "For as a belt is bound around a man's waist, so I bound the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah to me declares the Lord, to be my people for my renown and praise and honor. But they have not listened."

HOSEA 6 : 7 "like Adam they have broken the covenant"

Mankind was created to fight against Lucifer and his claims against God.

The word sanctify means to make holy or set apart for sacred use. How are we made holy?
JOHN 17 : 17 "Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth." We are made holy by knowing the truth about God. Where do we find the truth? It says in God's word which was brought to mankind by the prophets. 2 PETER 1 : 21 "For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."
Sanctified as I stated also means set apart for sacred use-to preach the gospel-what God is really like.

 

[savagewind]

Savagewind

I'm obviously not a JW because of my disagreements with Mountainclimber. Angel is not a being, but a job description. It is translated from the Greek word angelos which means a messenger. When Jesus called himself the son of man that didn't make him a created being did it? Jesus is divine, but came to reveal God's true character to the universe. The war in heaven was a verbal dispute. The word translated war is a Greek word meaning an aggressive disputing of ones ideas or principles. Lucifer was making accusations against God in heaven. That is why in the gospels, Jesus Called Satan a liar. The war as it says in Rev 12:7 was fought by Michael and his angels (messengers). Michael was the archangel. Arch means chief. Michael in Hebrew means one who is like God. As Jesus said if you've seen me you've seen the Father. God's messengers were the prophets.

Mankind was created to restore trust in God in the universe. Put these verses together and you'll see this is the case.

EPHESIANS 3 : 10 "His intent (God's plan) was that now, through the church (church is translated from a word meaning the called out ones-disciples), the manifold wisdom of God (how God runs the universe through the law of love) should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms (The created beings Lucifer was bringing into doubt), according to his eternal purpose (This was the plan from the beginning and will be into eternity) which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Mankind had failed up to that time so Jesus jump started it and has given it back to us. Peter says the same thing as Paul.

1 Peter 2 : 9 "But you a chosen people (called out ones), a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."

We were created to show what God is like. It is not happening yet because Lucifer had made several claims that have to be proven wrong using us.

ROMANS 11 ; 16 "If part part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy."

Paul said in Romans 8:23 that the disciples were the firstfruits of the Spirit. After this is all over we will all have the Spirit of God in us. How we treat our children and siblings and how we govern the earth will show the universe what God is like. We are going to have the same Spirit as God has in him so we will act as he would.

COLOSSIANS 1 : 19&20 "For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him (Jesus acted as the Father would), and through him to reconcile all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, BY MAKING PEACE through his blood shed on the cross."

Jesus made peace where there had been war.

Go back to the verse from Peter and see how the Jews were chosen to do what the disciples were to do but failed.

EXODUS 19 : 5&6 "Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of PRIESTS AND A HOLY NATION."

JEREMIAH 13 : 11 "For as a belt is bound around a man's waist, so I bound the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah to me declares the Lord, to be my people for my renown and praise and honor. But they have not listened."

HOSEA 6 : 7 "like Adam they have broken the covenant"

Mankind was created to fight against Lucifer and his claims against God.

The word sanctify means to make holy or set apart for sacred use. How are we made holy?
JOHN 17 : 17 "Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth." We are made holy by knowing the truth about God. Where do we find the truth? It says in God's word which was brought to mankind by the prophets. 2 PETER 1 : 21 "For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."
Sanctified as I stated also means set apart for sacred use-to preach the gospel-what God is really like.

I think I know that. Thank you. I am not and MountainClimber is not a Jehovah's Witness.

Jesus is not a messenger angel imo. Jesus is generated from God. Just as human do not create their own ability to speak Jesus was not created. I do not cling to believe the trinity, but I think it is righter than what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe. I am sure humans are not created to make God into an image, mental or physical.

 

[12jtartar]

Is there any solid evidence Jesus is Michael the arc angel? Can anyone show me where the Bible explicitly states that Jesus is the arc angel Michael? Anyone... Anyone... Bueler?

JFish123,
It really makes no difference to a Christian, whethervJesus is The Archangel or not, but the evidence in tha Bible shows, almost certainly, that Jesus, is also called The Archangel.
Remember, the term Archangel means Chief, or head angel, so there can be only one Archangel. Jesus is called The Archangel at 1Thes 4:16. Notice that here the Archangel is also doing the same things that Jesus is said to do at Matt 24:30,31, resurrecting the dead and taking his followers to heaven to be with him. Jesus also resurrects many others, both the righteous and the u righteous, John 5:28,29, Acts 24:15
The term angel means, messenger, and since Jesus is called The Word, he is certainly a messenger, sent by God, his Father, John 17:3
The Bible says that angels are higher that men, even Jesus, when on earth, Heb 2:9.
If angels are higher than men, why then do you not question the fact that Jesus is also called an Apostle, Heb 3:1??
Consider: Michael The Archangel fights Satan the Devil, and throws him down to earth, Rev 12:7-9. Heb 2:10-15 and 1John 3:8, pictures Jesus doing the same work as Michael was doing.
Also consider the actions of Michael at Dan 12:1,2, where he is standing up doing the same things as Jesus is doing, during the same time, Rev 6:2, where Jesus begins his Kingdom rule and begins to ride until he completely conquers.
At Jude 9 we see Michael The Archangel disputing with the Devil, about the body of Moses. It seems tome that only Jesus would be in that place.
Michael stands up at the end times, so does Jesus, as Jesus becomes the one who brings judgment on the whole world, Rev 19:11-21. Since Jesus is the one chosen by God to destroy the works of the Devil, and Jesus breaks up the works of the Devil, Jesus is doing the same things that Michael does and at the same time. Why would there be two doing this important work??? It is certain that Michael is the Heavenly name that Jesus had before he came to earth, and may very well be so now!!!

 

[savagewind]

Creating is done on the outside of the one creating. Jesus was generated from the inside of God The Father. That is my opinion. He is not a created soul. He is a part of God.

 

[savagewind]

JFish123,
It really makes no difference to a Christian, whethervJesus is The Archangel or not, but the evidence in tha Bible shows, almost certainly, that Jesus, is also called The Archangel.
Remember, the term Archangel means Chief, or head angel, so there can be only one Archangel. Jesus is called The Archangel at 1Thes 4:16. Notice that here the Archangel is also doing the same things that Jesus is said to do at Matt 24:30,31, resurrecting the dead and taking his followers to heaven to be with him. Jesus also resurrects many others, both the righteous and the u righteous, John 5:28,29, Acts 24:15
The term angel means, messenger, and since Jesus is called The Word, he is certainly a messenger, sent by God, his Father, John 17:3
The Bible says that angels are higher that men, even Jesus, when on earth, Heb 2:9.
If angels are higher than men, why then do you not question the fact that Jesus is also called an Apostle, Heb 3:1??
Consider: Michael The Archangel fights Satan the Devil, and throws him down to earth, Rev 12:7-9. Heb 2:10-15 and 1John 3:8, pictures Jesus doing the same work as Michael was doing.
Also consider the actions of Michael at Dan 12:1,2, where he is standing up doing the same things as Jesus is doing, during the same time, Rev 6:2, where Jesus begins his Kingdom rule and begins to ride until he completely conquers.
At Jude 9 we see Michael The Archangel disputing with the Devil, about the body of Moses. It seems tome that only Jesus would be in that place.
Michael stands up at the end times, so does Jesus, as Jesus becomes the one who brings judgment on the whole world, Rev 19:11-21. Since Jesus is the one chosen by God to destroy the works of the Devil, and Jesus breaks up the works of the Devil, Jesus is doing the same things that Michael does and at the same time. Why would there be two doing this important work??? It is certain that Michael is the Heavenly name that Jesus had before he came to earth, and may very well be so now!!!

You are making conclusions from words written by men. It is why you must believe they are God's words. They are not. The words you set your faith upon are words inspired by the love of God by men. Love is true so the words ring true.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Fragile feelings and slow learning are evil judgements you called imho.

Do you consider yourself a fast learner?

Have you learned yet that love is provoked? Why not? Are you a slow learner too?

I say your opinion sees darkness in things as it desires to see darkness.

But that you think is not evil, thus making you what?

 

[Ron Hackel]

SAVAGEWIND

The disciples as Paul said were the firstfruits. Wine in the Bible is symbolic for the teaching about God's character. Satan's religions teach a false picture of his character.

REVELATION 14 : 8 Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries."

Jesus was the groom and false religions leave him to go after a false picture (adultery). All the nations now have gone mad as Mountain climber and preach a god that must be appeased. Maddening wine is theology that takes you from the true picture of God. As I said in the prior post the Jews were supposed to show the true character of God to the universe.

ISAIAH 5 calls the Jews the vineyard of the Lord. God had a winepress in the vineyard but it only produced bad grapes (Is 5:4)
They never showed the true character of God, they kept trying to appease him by sacrificing animals.

PSALM 80 : 7&8 "Restore us, O Lord (we had been led astray by Satan in the garden)................You brought a vine out of Egypt; you drove out the nations and planted it"
VERSE 16 "Your vine is cut down, it is burned with fire; at your rebuke your people perish.
If you read the parable of the tenant, Jesus was relating to this psalm.
VERSE 17 "Let your hand rest on the man at your right hand, the son of man you have raised up for yourself."
God said a seed would come through the woman (symbolically God's people chosen people) so the Jews failed, so Jesus came as a Jew to do their job.
VERSE 18 "Then we will not turn away from you; revive us, and we will call on your name (name in Hebrew means character). Jesus would show the true character of God.
As Jesus said: JOHN 15 : 1 "I am the true vine" He would produce the good grapes by showing the true character of God. Compare Jesus to the Mount Sinai god, they have little in common.

If you read Psalm 78 you'll see that the Jews would not accept God as he was, so he relented and gave them the pagan god they desired. When the Pharisees came out to John the Baptist he said, "Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. repentance means to have a change of mind. They worshiped the Mount Sinai god (a pagan picture of god). Jesus was nothing like the Mount Sinai god. John was telling them to turn from that idea of God to the one Jesus would show. In Psalm 78:32 it says the Jews by not trusting in a loving Father were sinning. Jesus came to do away with sin. He told the apostles to go out and do as he had done. That is why Paul said they were the firstfruits of the Spirit.
1 JOHN 5 : 6 "And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth."
Jesus said he only said what the Father taught him and that the Spirit would say nothing on his own, but just take from what Jesus has (What the Father told him) (JOHN 16:15)
JOHN 16 ; 8 "When he comes he will expose the guilt of the world in regard to sin"
VERSE 9 "In regard to sin, because men do not believe in me." (Mountain climber does not believe in an all loving God)

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Creating is done on the outside of the one creating. Jesus was generated from the inside of God The Father. That is my opinion. He is not a created soul. He is a part of God.

That is an idea that obviously you desire to believe but can you prove it by scripture?

Or, is the truth that you have no real knowledge of exactly how creation works in such minute detail, just as the rest of us?

Why did Paul agree with the poet who said, "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." Acts 17:28 ???

 

[savagewind]

I say your opinion sees darkness in things as it desires to see darkness.

But that you think is not evil, thus making you what?

I do not know what that means. The Bible says love is not provoked. That was translated from the darkness. But you can't see the truth and you are criticizing other people who you think can't see the truth. That is the bread of the Pharisees, hypocrisy.

 

[savagewind]

That is an idea that obviously you desire to believe but can you prove it by scripture?

Or, is the truth that you have no real knowledge of exactly how creation works in such minute detail, just as the rest of us?

Why did Paul agree with the poet who said, "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." Acts 17:28 ???

What beginning was Jesus with God? John 1:1

 

[savagewind]

SAVAGEWIND

The disciples as Paul said were the firstfruits. Wine in the Bible is symbolic for the teaching about God's character. Satan's religions teach a false picture of his character.

REVELATION 14 : 8 Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries."

Jesus was the groom and false religions leave him to go after a false picture (adultery). All the nations now have gone mad as Mountain climber and preach a god that must be appeased. Maddening wine is theology that takes you from the true picture of God. As I said in the prior post the Jews were supposed to show the true character of God to the universe.

ISAIAH 5 calls the Jews the vineyard of the Lord. God had a winepress in the vineyard but it only produced bad grapes (Is 5:4)
They never showed the true character of God, they kept trying to appease him by sacrificing animals.

PSALM 80 : 7&8 "Restore us, O Lord (we had been led astray by Satan in the garden)................You brought a vine out of Egypt; you drove out the nations and planted it"
VERSE 16 "Your vine is cut down, it is burned with fire; at your rebuke your people perish.
If you read the parable of the tenant, Jesus was relating to this psalm.
VERSE 17 "Let your hand rest on the man at your right hand, the son of man you have raised up for yourself."
God said a seed would come through the woman (symbolically God's people chosen people) so the Jews failed, so Jesus came as a Jew to do their job.
VERSE 18 "Then we will not turn away from you; revive us, and we will call on your name (name in Hebrew means character). Jesus would show the true character of God.
As Jesus said: JOHN 15 : 1 "I am the true vine" He would produce the good grapes by showing the true character of God. Compare Jesus to the Mount Sinai god, they have little in common.

If you read Psalm 78 you'll see that the Jews would not accept God as he was, so he relented and gave them the pagan god they desired. When the Pharisees came out to John the Baptist he said, "Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. repentance means to have a change of mind. They worshiped the Mount Sinai god (a pagan picture of god). Jesus was nothing like the Mount Sinai god. John was telling them to turn from that idea of God to the one Jesus would show. In Psalm 78:32 it says the Jews by not trusting in a loving Father were sinning. Jesus came to do away with sin. He told the apostles to go out and do as he had done. That is why Paul said they were the firstfruits of the Spirit.
1 JOHN 5 : 6 "And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth."
Jesus said he only said what the Father taught him and that the Spirit would say nothing on his own, but just take from what Jesus has (What the Father told him) (JOHN 16:15)
JOHN 16 ; 8 "When he comes he will expose the guilt of the world in regard to sin"
VERSE 9 "In regard to sin, because men do not believe in me." (Mountain climber does not believe in an all loving God)

I think I agree with you.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Yes I am! When someone tries to teach something the Bible clearly doesn't teach, I don't accept it with joy and move on.



Who was the Word, Michael?




This has JW written all over it. Please show where the Bible teaches that Jesus had different roles to play. Did they have Bible study in heaven for the angels? I guess satan didn't learn much from the studies. And now you're saying that Michael is the Word of God spoken of in John 1?




Again, please give scripture reference to show where God changes Michaels name and role and sent him to be born of a woman. Otherwise, it's just your own interpretation of you reading between the lines to make the Bible say what you want it to say.




There is nothing wrong with my logic. Logic tells me, if Jesus was Michael in heaven before the necessity of a role and name change after sin entered the scene, then everything the Bible says about Jesus before He was born is actually speaking of Michael, because the name or role of Jesus didn't exist.



It truly amazes me how people can deny one teaching, like the Trinity because the Bible does not say, "God is a triune being", but accept another teaching, Jesus and Michael are one and the same, when the Bible does not say, "Michael came to be born of a woman".

That is why I said in the beginning that I did not feel the debate as to Jesus being Michael is even appropriate to engage in, but then you guys would not have it any other the way and kept insisting I present to you the reasons why i believe as I do that JW's may be correct on this one thing.

If one touches a dead carcass they become polluted by that dead carcass and so even as I said at the beginning of your railroading me into this discussion, in the absence of clear proof in the scriptures one way or the other, it seems to be a clear signal to avoid all speculation on the subject.

Therefore i am leaving you to believe as you wish to believe and not asking but telling you, Do not bring this subject up to me again.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

What beginning was Jesus with God? John 1:1

Whatever beginning you desire it to be.

After all, it won't matter to you one iota what beginning I say that is.

But how much does the knowledge that Jesus was in that beginning really tell you about what was going on before that beginning?

 

[Mountain_Climber]

I do not know what that means. The Bible says love is not provoked. That was translated from the darkness. But you can't see the truth and you are criticizing other people who you think can't see the truth. That is the bread of the Pharisees, hypocrisy.

Why do you who are such an expert on love seek to provoke?

My first comment as to Jesus and Michael was post 382. After that you started your taunting but strayed it to a side point which was a bit more reasonable to discuss as there was more in the scriptures concerning it.

But then another poster would not have it that I had said in post 382 that there was not really much support in the scriptures either direction concerning the subject of Jesus and Michael. It obviously annoyed them even as it did you that i had stated that from what I was able to see in scripture i would be inclined to agree with JW's stand. And so you can clearly see that in post 413 I very clearly made that position known once again.

Then we have post 420 and post 477 all showing that I have resisted the touching of this dead carcass with you who wish to do so, but I then failed to just ignore you.

Pegg was totally right to ditch you guys. You do nothing but seek to stir up conflict and there is about as much a chance of sharing a different view to you as there is of placing and ice cube into an oven at 500 degrees and expecting it not to melt.

So have at it. I am done with you.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Therefore i am leaving you to believe as you wish to believe and not asking but telling you, Do not bring this subject up to me again.

You are free to leave the thread any time you wish. I am not forcing you to stay here. It is my right as a member to reply to your posts, and your right to ignore them. You can't tell me to do anything! If you don't want to read my replies, there is an ignore option.