JWs: looking for your input

[Skwim]

Checking out Luke 23:43 in the 52 Bibles I looked at they said either

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." - KJV​

OR

"Jesus replied, “I assure you that today you will be with me in paradise.” - CEB​

Or words to this effect: IOW, the very day Jesus told this to the criminal was the day the criminal would be in paradise with Jesus. However, in the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures of this passage Jesus doesn't designate the day the criminal would be in paradise with Jesus.

"And he said to him: 'Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise." - NWT​

Do you have any explanation for this deviation from the standard translation or has your religion ever offered one?


NOTE: Kolibri brought this difference in meaning to my attention in THIS post.

 

[jeager106]

Yes. Read this:
The Comma of Luke 23:43 | Grace Communion International
This explains much about language and the use of punctuation.

 

[Skwim]

Yes. Read this:
The Comma of Luke 23:43 | Grace Communion International
This explains much about language and the use of punctuation.

But it really doesn't say why its translation is preferable to that of the other Bibles'. And in light of employing a comma itself, makes some rather strange claims about the "authority" of the comma. It's also interesting that in spite of your link's conclusion:

"Did Christ and the malefactor, then, go to Paradise on that day? We must say that, in light of the popular notion and the context explained above, they clearly did, even though they literally were in the grave."
​

the NWT chooses not to reflect this in its translation of Luke 23:43.

 

[Unification]

But it really doesn't say why its translation is preferable to that of the other Bibles'. And in light of employing a comma itself, makes some rather strange claims about the "authority" of the comma. It's also interesting that in spite of your link's conclusion:

"Did Christ and the malefactor, then, go to Paradise on that day? We must say that, in light of the popular notion and the context explained above, they clearly did, even though they literally were in the grave."
​

the NWT chooses not to reflect this in its translation of Luke 23:43.

It's all allegory and spiritual anyhow.
The temple torn in two is no different than the parting of the red sea by standing still (meditation) and finding paradise (peace/bliss/God)

The temple of God is the brain and the one on the left and the one on the right are the eastern and western hemispheres of the brain. Temple rent in twain and the two becoming one. Single eye. Inner higher conscious mind. Physical meeting spiritual in divine Union. Lower self and higher self becoming one. Natural man becoming spiritual man.

Why Jesus was crucified at the place of the skull.

 

[.kaleb]

Checking out Luke 23:43 in the 52 Bibles I looked at they said either

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." - KJV​

OR

"Jesus replied, “I assure you that today you will be with me in paradise.” - CEB​

Or words to this effect: IOW, the very day Jesus told this to the criminal was the day the criminal would be in paradise with Jesus. However, in the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures of this passage Jesus doesn't designate the day the criminal would be in paradise with Jesus.

"And he said to him: 'Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise." - NWT​

Do you have any explanation for this deviation from the standard translation or has your religion ever offered one?


NOTE: Kolibri brought this difference in meaning to my attention in THIS post.

Luke 23:43 (NWT) 43 And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”

Kingdom interlinear translation: And εἶπεν he said αὐτῷ to him ᾿Αμήν Amen σοι to you λέγω,I am saying σήμερον today μετ’ with ἐμοῦ me ἔσῃ you will be ἐν in τῷ the παραδείσῳ paradise.

I guess each can make their own mind up as to which translation best delivers what was said in the original Greek.

Some points to consider tho:
• Jesus said earlier in Luke 9:22, after his being killed, he would not be raised up until the third day. So one would have to reconcile this with a translation that says, or insinuates that Christ and the sinner were going to be IN paradise that very day.

• also to consider is what Jesus said to Mary mag. In John 20:17 (King James Version) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. ( note that this was said after his resurrection)

• a further point to consider is did the sinner meet the requirements to go to heaven. There is no mention of him being "born again" that is to say being neither baptized in water nor begotten by God's holy spirit. Holy spirit in fact was not poured out upon Jesus' disciples until more than 50 days after the sinners death, during the time of Pentecost 33 c.e.

• an examination of Luke 22:28-30 may also help in understanding which translation best picks up the context.

 

[Skwim]

Luke 23:43 (NWT) 43 And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”

Kingdom interlinear translation: And εἶπεν he said αὐτῷ to him ᾿Αμήν Amen σοι to you λέγω,I am saying σήμερον today μετ’ with ἐμοῦ me ἔσῃ you will be ἐν in τῷ the παραδείσῳ paradise.

I guess each can make their own mind up as to which translation best delivers what was said in the original Greek.

But in as much as you're a JW, aren't you obligated to adhere to the NWT version in spite of the official 1989 explanation to the contrary?

 

[lovemuffin]

At least in this case I think the NWT translation is permissible. semeron is indeclinable so there's no grammatical hint, and thus the text is ambiguous.

I've heard two arguments for the majority reading:

1) when Jesus begins to say something with "amen I say to you", it's followed by something dramatic and unexpected, and "you will be with me in paradise today" fits with that them better than "I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise (eventually). Against that argument however, it could be said that promising paradise to the thief is already dramatic and unexpected.

2) "Amen I say to you today" is redundant in that λεγω is already present tense. So stylistically it is perhaps more likely that the adverb is supposed to be associated with the next sentence. However the argument doesn't seem that strong, since it's making a lot of assumptions about stylistic usage in ancient greek without much support, from what I've seen. There are also at least some ancient manuscript copies which include apparent punctuation marks and seem to associate "today" with "amen I say to you". They mention some here: The Significance of a Comma: An Analysis of Luke 23:43 - Ministry Magazine

As far as why the majority of translations use "today you will be with me in paradise", my guess is that it's mainly inertia. It's been the most common rendering for a long time and there isn't conclusive evidence that it's wrong.

 

[.kaleb]

But in as much as you're a JW, aren't you obligated to adhere to the NWT version in spite of the official 1989 explanation to the contrary?

I am free to believe what ever I like. My relationship with my father, and his son Jesus Christ is personal. I am responsible for what I believe, not anyone else. Having said that, I personally have no doubt whatsoever that Jesus Christ is head of the congregation and that he is directing the operations of Jehovah's witnesses as a whole. When there needs to be clarification on certain matters, Jesus makes sure it happens. Maybe not straight away, but it does get corrected.

It's up to the individual whether they choose to go concur with what is published.

 

[JayJayDee]

But it really doesn't say why its translation is preferable to that of the other Bibles'. And in light of employing a comma itself, makes some rather strange claims about the "authority" of the comma. It's also interesting that in spite of your link's conclusion:

"Did Christ and the malefactor, then, go to Paradise on that day? We must say that, in light of the popular notion and the context explained above, they clearly did, even though they literally were in the grave."
​

the NWT chooses not to reflect this in its translation of Luke 23:43.

Something else to reflect on....did Jesus tell the evildoer that he was going to be with him in heaven? What makes us assume that paradise is heaven? The paradise where God placed the first humans was on earth. The kingdom that Jesus taught his disciples to pray for was to rule from heaven over a cleansed earth. (Rev 21:2-5) Paradise conditions will be restored on this earth with the coming of God's kingdom.

Those who are taken to heaven are part of the new covenant, instituted by Jesus on the night before his death. This evildoer was not part of that arrangement, nor was he present when the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost, anointing the disciples for heavenly life......so he will not be a "king" or "priest" to reign with Christ in his his kingdom.(Rev 20:6)
The man was promised paradise, not heaven.

Since Jesus will resurrect all the dead...even the unrighteous as part of his role as earth's king, the evildoer will be part of that arrangement. (John 5:28, 29)

Jesus was not resurrected for three days, so he did not go anywhere. He was actually dead...."in the heart of the earth for three days and nights", just as he said. He used Jonah in the belly of the fish as an example of what he meant. (Matt 12:38-40)

Where was Jonah for three days and nights? He was contained in the belly of the fish just as Jesus was contained in the tomb. So the NWT's placement of the comma is in keeping with the Biblical facts, not the desire by Christendom to perpetuate wrong beliefs about going to heaven.

 

[Pegg]

But it really doesn't say why its translation is preferable to that of the other Bibles'. And in light of employing a comma itself, makes some rather strange claims about the "authority" of the comma. It's also interesting that in spite of your link's conclusion:

"Did Christ and the malefactor, then, go to Paradise on that day? We must say that, in light of the popular notion and the context explained above, they clearly did, even though they literally were in the grave."
​

the NWT chooses not to reflect this in its translation of Luke 23:43.

Unfortunately the greek language did not use commas, so in a language like english, a translator needs to add them in. And when this is the case, the decision to include a comma should be determined by context.

What we do know is that Jesus entered the grave for 3 days. He did not go to paradise for 3 days....the scriptures clearly say he was in the grave before he was resurrected to heavenly life.

So an english translator would need to consider what Jesus was really telling the thief. Was he saying that they would both be in paradise on that day, or was he simply telling the man on that day (the day they were dying) that he would be in paradise?

 

[Skwim]

[

Unfortunately the greek language did not use commas, so in a language like english, a translator needs to add them in. And when this is the case, the decision to include a comma should be determined by context.

What we do know is that Jesus entered the grave for 3 days. He did not go to paradise for 3 days....the scriptures clearly say he was in the grave before he was resurrected to heavenly life.

So an english translator would need to consider what Jesus was really telling the thief. Was he saying that they would both be in paradise on that day, or was he simply telling the man on that day (the day they were dying) that he would be in paradise?

Yup, and as I pointed out in the OP, of the 53 versions of the Bible I checked out only the NWT Bible presents Luke 23:43 in the following form.

"And he said to him: 'Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise."
​

So, I'm still asking: Do you have any explanation for this deviation from the standard translation or has your religion ever offered one?

 

[Pegg]

[

Yup, and as I pointed out in the OP, of the 53 versions of the Bible I checked out only the NWT Bible presents Luke 23:43 in the following form.

"And he said to him: 'Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise."
​

So, I'm still asking: Do you have any explanation for this deviation from the standard translation or has your religion ever offered one?

Yes, Truth!


Actually, the WT have explained why they put the comma after 'today'....


Insight on the Scriptures Vol 2 pg 575 (published by the WT)

The punctuation shown in the rendering of these words must, of course, depend on the translator’s understanding of the sense of Jesus’ words, since no punctuation was used in the original Greek text. Punctuation in the modern style did not become common until about the ninth century C.E. Whereas many translations place a comma before the word “today” and thereby give the impression that the evildoer entered Paradise that same day, there is nothing in the rest of the Scriptures to support this. Jesus himself was dead and in the tomb until the third day and was then resurrected as “the firstfruits” of the resurrection. (Ac 10:40; 1Co 15:20; Col 1:18) He ascended to heaven 40 days later.—Joh 20:17; Ac 1:1-3, 9.

The evidence is, therefore, that Jesus’ use of the word “today” was not to give the time of the evildoer’s being in Paradise but, rather, to call attention to the time in which the promise was being made and during which the evildoer had shown a measure of faith in Jesus. It was a day when Jesus had been rejected and condemned by the highest-ranking religious leaders of his own people and was thereafter sentenced to die by Roman authority. He had become an object of scorn and ridicule. So the wrongdoer alongside him had shown a notable quality and commendable heart attitude in not going along with the crowd but, rather, speaking out in Jesus’ behalf and expressing belief in his coming Kingship. Recognizing that the emphasis is correctly placed on the time of the promise’s being made rather than on the time of its fulfillment, other translations, such as those in English by Rotherham and Lamsa, those in German by Reinhardt and W. Michaelis, as well as the Curetonian Syriac of the fifth century C.E., rendered the text in a form similar to the reading of the NewWorldTranslation, quoted herein.​

 

[Skwim]

Yes, Truth!


Actually, the WT have explained why they put the comma after 'today'....


Insight on the Scriptures Vol 2 pg 575 (published by the WT)

The punctuation shown in the rendering of these words must, of course, depend on the translator’s understanding of the sense of Jesus’ words, since no punctuation was used in the original Greek text. Punctuation in the modern style did not become common until about the ninth century C.E. Whereas many translations place a comma before the word “today” and thereby give the impression that the evildoer entered Paradise that same day, there is nothing in the rest of the Scriptures to support this. Jesus himself was dead and in the tomb until the third day and was then resurrected as “the firstfruits” of the resurrection. (Ac 10:40; 1Co 15:20; Col 1:18) He ascended to heaven 40 days later.—Joh 20:17; Ac 1:1-3, 9.

The evidence is, therefore, that Jesus’ use of the word “today” was not to give the time of the evildoer’s being in Paradise but, rather, to call attention to the time in which the promise was being made and during which the evildoer had shown a measure of faith in Jesus. It was a day when Jesus had been rejected and condemned by the highest-ranking religious leaders of his own people and was thereafter sentenced to die by Roman authority. He had become an object of scorn and ridicule. So the wrongdoer alongside him had shown a notable quality and commendable heart attitude in not going along with the crowd but, rather, speaking out in Jesus’ behalf and expressing belief in his coming Kingship. Recognizing that the emphasis is correctly placed on the time of the promise’s being made rather than on the time of its fulfillment, other translations, such as those in English by Rotherham and Lamsa, those in German by Reinhardt and W. Michaelis, as well as the Curetonian Syriac of the fifth century C.E., rendered the text in a form similar to the reading of the NewWorldTranslation, quoted herein.​

Thanks.

 

[sargent fury]

Checking out Luke 23:43 in the 52 Bibles I looked at they said either

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." - KJV​

OR

"Jesus replied, “I assure you that today you will be with me in paradise.” - CEB​

Or words to this effect: IOW, the very day Jesus told this to the criminal was the day the criminal would be in paradise with Jesus. However, in the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures of this passage Jesus doesn't designate the day the criminal would be in paradise with Jesus.

"And he said to him: 'Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise." - NWT​

Do you have any explanation for this deviation from the standard translation or has your religion ever offered one?


NOTE: Kolibri brought this difference in meaning to my attention in THIS post.

Since the "paradise" is yet to be created, the only possible meaning would be that Jesus said: Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise. The paradise referred to is NOT heaven, as the scriptures teach that we do not have an immortal soul that could go to heaven. Rather, it is Earth as Jehovah originally purposed the Earth in the creation of the garden in Eden. Adam and his mate were to expand the paradise throughout the Earth. It never happened, as Satan introduced religion to Eve, and made Adam the first proselyte. Religion being the teaching of false things regarding God. Earth WILL be made into that paradise, post Armageddon. Then the resurrection of the unrighteous will take place, and that criminal, executed along side Jesus, will be in paradise.

 

[Skwim]

Since the "paradise" is yet to be created, the only possible meaning would be that Jesus said: Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise. The paradise referred to is NOT heaven, as the scriptures teach that we do not have an immortal soul that could go to heaven. Rather, it is Earth as Jehovah originally purposed the Earth in the creation of the garden in Eden. Adam and his mate were to expand the paradise throughout the Earth. It never happened, as Satan introduced religion to Eve, and made Adam the first proselyte. Religion being the teaching of false things regarding God. Earth WILL be made into that paradise, post Armageddon. Then the resurrection of the unrighteous will take place, and that criminal, executed along side Jesus, will be in paradise.

And all this information

1) Paradise is earth
2) Adam and Eve were suppose to expand the paradise throughout the earth, but it never happened because Satan introduced religion to Eve,
3) Adam was the first proselyte.
4) Religion is the teaching of false things regarding God.
5) Earth will be made into that paradise after armageddon.
​

Can be found, where? Be specific.

 

[sargent fury]

And all this information

1) Paradise is earth
2) Adam and Eve were suppose to expand the paradise throughout the earth, but it never happened because Satan introduced religion to Eve,
3) Adam was the first proselyte.
4) Religion is the teaching of false things regarding God.
5) Earth will be made into that paradise after armageddon.
​

Can be found, where? Be specific.

Are you not familiar with the Edenic garden story in the scriptures? Eden was on Earth, was a paradise, and was to be expanded throughout Earth. This is still God's purpose for Earth.

Again, Satan told Eve false things about God. Therefore bringing false religion TO Eve, in the garden. Ring any bells yet?
Genesis 1:3 Now the serpent was the most cautious of all the wild animals of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it said to the woman: “Did God really say that you must not eat from every tree of the garden?” 2 At this the woman said to the serpent: “We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden. 3 But God has said about the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden: ‘You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it; otherwise you will die.’” 4 At this the serpent said to the woman: “You certainly will not die. 5 For God knows that in the very day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and bad.”
6 Consequently, the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was something desirable to the eyes, yes, the tree was pleasing to look at. So she began taking of its fruit and eating it. Afterward, she also gave some to her husband when he was with her, and he began eating it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized that they were naked. So they sewed fig leaves together and made loin coverings for themselves.
8 Later they heard the voice of Jehovah God as he was walking in the garden about the breezy part of the day, and the man and his wife hid from the face of Jehovah God among the trees of the garden. 9 And Jehovah God kept calling to the man and saying to him: “Where are you?” 10 Finally he said: “I heard your voice in the garden, but I was afraid because I was naked, so I hid myself.” 11 At that he said: “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree from which I commanded you not to eat?” 12 The man said: “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit from the tree, so I ate.” 13 Jehovah God then said to the woman: “What is this you have done?” The woman replied: “The serpent deceived me, so I ate.”
14 Then Jehovah God said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild animals of the field. On your belly you will go, and you will eat dust all the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel.”
16 To the woman he said: “I will greatly increase the pain of your pregnancy; in pain you will givebirth to children, and your longing will be for your husband, and he will dominate you.”

Again, Eve convinced Adam to try the forbidden tree's fruit saying they wouldn't die. This is what Satan had a snake tell her, probably using ventriquilism. Adam ate. They were judged and evicted. Any bells ringing yet?

You must have read this at least once in your life.

All religion teaches false things about God, and the first incidence of this WAS in the Garden, from Satan, to Eve, who taught it to Adam. First religion, first proselyte.

Revelation 2:5 “‘Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first. If you do not, I will come to you, and I will remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. 6 Still, you do have this in your favor: that you hate the deeds of the sect of Nic·o·laʹus, which I also hate. 7 Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations: To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

We already know the "tree of life" was in the garden. One has no flesh in heaven, it's not possible. The tree IS on Earth, in the paradise of God.

 

[Skwim]

Are you not familiar with the Edenic garden story in the scriptures? Eden was on Earth, was a paradise, and was to be expanded throughout Earth.

Hmm. . . I just read several versions of the opening passages of Genesis and not a single mention of paradise anywhere. Obviously this is something you've concocted in order to. . . . . . .what?

You must have read this at least once in your life.

Yup, and not a single mention of paradise anywhere. That you may want to characterize Eden, with its crafty serpent waiting to pounce on the unsuspecting, as paradise is your choice of course, but it's hardly supported by any text in Genesis or by common sense. Would paradise really have a bad guy in it lurking in the wings?

All religion teaches false things about God, and the first incidence of this WAS in the Garden, from Satan, to Eve, who taught it to Adam.

So, exactly what is the truth about god that all regions have gotten wrong?

First religion, first proselyte.

Here let me help you out.

religion
[ri-lij-uh n]

noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects:
the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices
​

So describe this "religion" that Adam practiced and was a proselyte of. And no, I don't accept that a belief or two or three constitutes a religion. But as a point of interest, just what did Adam believe about god?

 

[sargent fury]

Hmm. . . I just read several versions of the opening passages of Genesis and not a single mention of paradise anywhere. Obviously this is something you've concocted in order to. . . . . . .what?

Yup, and not a single mention of paradise anywhere. That you may want to characterize Eden, with its crafty serpent waiting to pounce on the unsuspecting, as paradise is your choice of course, but it's hardly supported by any text in Genesis or by common sense. Would paradise really have a bad guy in it lurking in the wings?

So, exactly what is the truth about god that all regions have gotten wrong?


Here let me help you out.

religion
[ri-lij-uh n]

noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects:
the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices
​

So describe this "religion" that Adam practiced and was a proselyte of. And no, I don't accept that a belief or two or three constitutes a religion. But as a point of interest, just what did Adam believe about god?

The Garden in Eden was a paradise. Your rejection of that idea doesn't change what it was. As far as paradise having "acrafty serpent" is kind of a silly idea. Satan was lusting after the worship Jehovah received and wanted it for himself. He used a serpent to mislead Eve. Whether you believe that or not is of no matter either. That is how it was. Jehovah does not lie. The dictionary definition of religion is also of no matter. It is the real definition that counts. NO religion teaches exactly what Jehovah inspired to be written into His inspired word, the scriptures. Therefore all religions teach things different from what God teaches. That is the true definition. All religions teach things different from all other religions. None are the same. Since Jesus taught no religion, he taught the "one true faith", all religions teach falsehoods, and all are therefore false. I never said Adam "practiced" religion, I said he was a proselyte of religion taught to Eve, by Satan. Falsehoods about God. What you accept is of no concern to me either. My position here is not to state things that you "accept", now is it? You asked a question and I answered it with truths from the scriptures as inspired by Jehovah God. What Adam believed about God is what God told him. That account is all in Genesis. Since I am not Adam, he is dead, and I cannot tell you what ANYONE believed about God, I must rely on the account from Jehovah, just as you would have to, if you wanted the truth. Since God, or His son Jesus, NEVER started or taught ANY religion, that means that all religions existing today are started by man. They are the teachings of MAN and the traditions of MAN, not of God. Therefore they are false, just as the scdriptures state. Galations 5:19-21 lists sects as part of the works of the flesh. All religions claiming to be Christian are sects of Christianity. Since sects are works of the flesh, you do the math. Religions are also the greater part of Babylon the Great, and all religions pretty much originate in Babylon, the city. The PAGAN city. Christendom originated in 325 c.e. with Constantine, the head of all pagan religions of his day. All existing translations used by those religions also originated with Constantine's Bible that he had created. It is for that reason that almost all translations cannot be trusted.

 

[Skwim]

The Garden in Eden was a paradise.

Just as I thought; nothing more than your particular notion of it.

Your rejection of that idea doesn't change what it was.

Hey, I don't care if it was truly paradise or not, but I'm not going to believe it was simply because you say so. Give us some proof. That's all I asked.Show us the evidence that Eden was, in fact, paradise.

As far as paradise having "acrafty serpent" is kind of a silly idea.

You're the one who said Eden was paradise, and the Bible says that the serpent was in Eden, ergo, the serpent was in paradise. As for being crafty, Genesis 3:1 says:

(ESV)
"3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made."​

Satan was lusting after the worship Jehovah received and wanted it for himself. He used a serpent to mislead Eve.

Chapter and verse please, or are you making up this one as well?

That is how it was. Jehovah does not lie.

And just where in the Bible does Jehovah present this non-lie: how it was? And what is it?

The dictionary definition of religion is also of no matter. It is the real definition that counts.

And who gets to determine the real definition? YOU? Here's a clue that may help you in these forums here on RF. We all believe words have meanings, and unless one deviates from these meanings AND INFORMS THE READER OF IT, we take them as they're commonly understood. So it does matter. IT MATTERS VERY MUCH. Want to play jabberwocky with the English language go right ahead, but don't expect anyone to care or respond.

NO religion teaches exactly what Jehovah inspired to be written into His inspired word, the scriptures. Therefore all religions teach things different from what God teaches.

So I ask you again *sigh*,

Exactly what is the truth about god that all regions have gotten wrong?​

That is the true definition.

The true definition of what? What word are you referring to?

Since Jesus taught no religion, he taught the "one true faith", all religions teach falsehoods, and all are therefore false.

Just what falsehoods are these?

I never said Adam "practiced" religion, I said he was a proselyte of religion taught to Eve, by Satan.

I assumed that as a proselyte of his new religion Adam would be carrying out (practicing) aspects of his new belief. Or didn't his new religion require anything of him?

You asked a question and I answered it with truths from the scriptures as inspired by Jehovah God.

I still await your chapter and verse that calls Eden "paradise." Show us the chapter and verse that says "Satan was lusting after the worship Jehovah received and wanted it for himself. He used a serpent to mislead Eve."

What Adam believed about God is what God told him. That account is all in Genesis.

Interesting, but I didn't come across anything that mentioned what Adam believed about god. Care to share?

Since I am not Adam, he is dead, and I cannot tell you what ANYONE believed about God, I must rely on the account from Jehovah, just as you would have to, if you wanted the truth.

Okay, then tell us where it says that "What Adam believed about God is what God told him."

Since God, or His son Jesus, NEVER started or taught ANY religion, that means that all religions existing today are started by man.

Except the religion you say was passed down by Satan.

 

[sargent fury]

Just as I thought; nothing more than your particular notion of it.

Hey, I don't care if it was truly paradise or not, but I'm not going to believe it was simply because you say so. Give us some proof. That's all I asked.Show us the evidence that Eden was, in fact, paradise.

You're the one who said Eden was paradise, and the Bible says that the serpent was in Eden, ergo, the serpent was in paradise. As for being crafty, Genesis 3:1 says:

(ESV)
"3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made."​

Chapter and verse please, or are you making up this one as well?

And just where in the Bible does Jehovah present this non-lie: how it was? And what is it?


And who gets to determine the real definition? YOU? Here's a clue that may help you in these forums here on RF. We all believe words have meanings, and unless one deviates from these meanings AND INFORMS THE READER OF IT, we take them as they're commonly understood. So it does matter. IT MATTERS VERY MUCH. Want to play jabberwocky with the English language go right ahead, but don't expect anyone to care or respond.

So I ask you again *sigh*,

Exactly what is the truth about god that all regions have gotten wrong?​

The true definition of what? What word are you referring to?

Just what falsehoods are these?

I assumed that as a proselyte of his new religion Adam would be carrying out (practicing) aspects of his new belief. Or didn't his new religion require anything of him?

I still await your chapter and verse that calls Eden "paradise." Show us the chapter and verse that says "Satan was lusting after the worship Jehovah received and wanted it for himself. He used a serpent to mislead Eve."

Interesting, but I didn't come across anything that mentioned what Adam believed about god. Care to share?


Okay, then tell us where it says that "What Adam believed about God is what God told him."

Except the religion you say was passed down by Satan.

As a result of your confrontational attitude, I decline to answer any of these rediculous questions. If you want to ask a question at a time, in a friendly way, I will do my best. Otherwise, realize that I won't respond to the attitude that you put forth at all. Arguing like a teenager hyped up on whatever will not work with me. Sorry.

I will answer one of the questions though, since you are so militarily opposed to civil behavior.
Regarden Eden:
A region in which the Creator planted a gardenlike park as the original home of the first human pair. The statement that the garden was “in Eden, toward the east,” apparently indicates that the garden occupied only a portion of the region called Eden. (Ge 2:8) However, the garden is thereafter called “the garden of Eden” (Ge 2:15) and, in later texts, is spoken of as “Eden, the garden of God” (Eze 28:13), and as “the garden of Jehovah.”—Isa 51:3.
The Septuagint rendered the Hebrew word for “garden” (gan) by the Greek word pa·raʹdei·sos. To this fact we owe our association of the English word “paradise” with the garden of Eden.
Genesis 2:15 states that “God proceeded to take the man and settle him in the garden of Eden.” While this might appear to indicate that man’s creation took place outside the garden, it may simply refer to God’s ‘taking’ man in the sense of his forming and creating him from the earthly elements, or the dust of the ground, then assigning him to reside initially in the garden in which he came to life. The cultivation and care of the garden was man’s work assignment. Eden’s trees and plants included all those providing scenic beauty as well as those providing a wide variety of food. (Ge 2:9, 15) This fact alone would indicate that the garden covered an area of considerable size. There was a great variety of animal life in the garden. God brought before Adam “all the domestic animals and . . . flying creatures of the heavens and . . . every wild beast of the field,” and naming them was one of Adam's tasks. (Ge 2:19, 20) Eden’s soil was watered by the waters of the river “issuing out of Eden.” (Ge 2:10) In view of man’s nakedness it may be assumed that the climate was very mild and very pleasant.—Ge 2:25.
You must realize that one cannot just take one scripture to answer a question. The Bible isn't laid out that way. Careful study of each scripture, and the comparison of each scripture to each other scripture is required to gain the true meaning of them. One more thing is required, and that is for Jehovah God to unveil the meaning of them, as Satan is said to have veiled the meaning to unbelievers in the one true faith.