JW's please stay away

[Father Heathen]

I feel genuinely sorry for the gay Jews in your community

I feel genuinely sorry for any sensible, civilized person in their community.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I feel genuinely sorry for any sensible, civilized person in their community.

True, but those people aren't made to feel like crap because of how they were born. So I feel extra sorry for the gay Jews

 

[Smart_Guy]

Jehovah's Witnesses

Jehovah

Oh, thank you, I had my doubts it was an abbreviation for Jewish.

 

[Moishe3rd]

Wow. Such a kind, loving and righteous man you must be. Is this what your rabbi teaches you? To be so disrespectful?

"Disrespectful?"
Hmmm... Interesting question.
On one hand, yes - one should not respect the notion that bisexuality and trangenderism is the same as being homosexual or lesbian. That is a bizarre concept and a lie or, if you will, a "politically correct" concept which, in plain English means that it a bizarre concept and a lie.
On the other hand, it is wrong to be deliberately rude to those who are incapable of understanding the differences between ordinary sexuality and new invented "norms" of sexuality.
On the Gripping Hand, from a Torah point of view, G-d tells us that LBGT behaviors are, indeed, confused and contradictory towards the concept of Life and spiritual evolution.

Three opinions... fancy that!

 

[Moishe3rd]

It clings to irrational, unsubstantiated, and arbitrary viewpoints that foster willful ignorance and bigotry.

Oh.
In that case, could you be more specific in your condemnations?
How so?

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

"Disrespectful?"
Hmmm... Interesting question.
On one hand, yes - one should not respect the notion that bisexuality and trangenderism is the same as being homosexual or lesbian. That is a bizarre concept and a lie or, if you will, a "politically correct" concept which, in plain English means that it a bizarre concept and a lie.
On the other hand, it is wrong to be deliberately rude to those who are incapable of understanding the differences between ordinary sexuality and new invented "norms" of sexuality.
On the Gripping Hand, from a Torah point of view, G-d tells us that LBGT behaviors are, indeed, confused and contradictory towards the concept of Life and spiritual evolution.

Three opinions... fancy that!

Bisexuality, and transgendered people are not new

 

[Moishe3rd]

I feel genuinely sorry for the gay Jews in your community

Why?
I know some very nice gay Jews. They seem to be as happy and as comfortable and as well adjusted as most people.
Admittedly, the folk I know are not part of my immediate "community," as in not being part of our (ultra) Orthodox Jewish congregation. Or, if they are, they are apparently very comfortable in keeping their particular sexual proclivities to themselves.
But, then again, it is a point of Jewish Law that EVERYONE should keep their sexual proclivities to themselves.
Which means that we don't hold hands and kiss in public or talk about what we do sexually with anyone but our spouses (or, I suppose, partners in the case of our theoretical closet gays).

The Torah teaches that we should be modest in all things, particularly regarding our sex lives.
There are actual discussions; explanations; and instructions on how to proceed if a man or woman gives in to immoral sexual impulses.
The bottom line is that - as our ordinary, "moral" sex lives are not to be discussed and publicized in any way whatsoever - how much more so should our "immoral" sex lives be hidden and kept secret.

The modern concepts of "do it if it feels good" anywhere at anytime and let everyone know about it - is totally antithetical to Jewish Law.

The "sin" of homosexuality is but one of many abominations from which a Jew should refrain. The "sin" of publicizing one's sex life is another. The "sin" of parading one's sex life in front of others and demanding that everyone approve of whatever it is you choose to do, violates many more Torah Commandments.

Bottom line, as Mrs. Patrick Campbell is purported to have said: "I don't care what they do, so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses."

To create a cause celebre for publicly defining how one uses one's genitals has always been a sign of societal collapse, even outside of the Judeo/ Christian/ Muslim world.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Why?
I know some very nice gay Jews. They seem to be as happy and as comfortable and as well adjusted as most people.
Admittedly, the folk I know are not part of my immediate "community," as in not being part of our (ultra) Orthodox Jewish congregation. Or, if they are, they are apparently very comfortable in keeping their particular sexual proclivities to themselves.
But, then again, it is a point of Jewish Law that EVERYONE should keep their sexual proclivities to themselves.
Which means that we don't hold hands and kiss in public or talk about what we do sexually with anyone but our spouses (or, I suppose, partners in the case of our theoretical closet gays).

The Torah teaches that we should be modest in all things, particularly regarding our sex lives.
There are actual discussions; explanations; and instructions on how to proceed if a man or woman gives in to immoral sexual impulses.
The bottom line is that - as our ordinary, "moral" sex lives are not to be discussed and publicized in any way whatsoever - how much more so should our "immoral" sex lives be hidden and kept secret.

The modern concepts of "do it if it feels good" anywhere at anytime and let everyone know about it - is totally antithetical to Jewish Law.

The "sin" of homosexuality is but one of many abominations from which a Jew should refrain. The "sin" of publicizing one's sex life is another. The "sin" of parading one's sex life in front of others and demanding that everyone approve of whatever it is you choose to do, violates many more Torah Commandments.

Bottom line, as Mrs. Patrick Campbell is purported to have said: "I don't care what they do, so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses."

To create a cause celebre for publicly defining how one uses one's genitals has always been a sign of societal collapse, even outside of the Judeo/ Christian/ Muslim world.

I would rather hear how a closet gay feels being raised in an ultra orthodox community, than take your word for it that they are fine and dandy.

 

[Moishe3rd]

I would rather hear how a closet gay feels being raised in an ultra orthodox community, than take your word for it that they are fine and dandy.

One could easily extrapolate that a "closet gay" in an ultra Orthodox community would feel much the same as a "closet" - serial adulterer; probationer of BDSM; one who indulges in Internet porn ; or any other sexual activities that are discouraged.
I suspect that "closet" "ultra Orthodox Jews" who engage in such behaviors will rationalize; have extreme fears, doubts, and guilt's; and exhibit all of the ordinary behaviors that people exhibit when they indulge in activities that they are not supposed to be doing and must keep secret - like cheating on one's taxes or spending time at work playing on the Internet instead of working...

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

One could easily extrapolate that a "closet gay" in an ultra Orthodox community would feel much the same as a "closet" - serial adulterer; probationer of BDSM; one who indulges in Internet porn ; or any other sexual activities that are discouraged.
I suspect that "closet" "ultra Orthodox Jews" who engage in such behaviors will rationalize; have extreme fears, doubts, and guilt's; and exhibit all of the ordinary behaviors that people exhibit when they indulge in activities that they are not supposed to be doing and must keep secret - like cheating on one's taxes or spending time at work playing on the Internet instead of working...

Erm no! There are gay people who are raised in certain religions that feel guilty and suicidal just for being gay and not because they are having sex in secret, they could be virgins and still feel that way because they are trying to repress romantic feelings of the same sex and realise that if they stay in that religion they have to be lonely for the rest of their lives.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Moishe3rd being gay is not just about sex it is about love too.

 

[Moishe3rd]

Moishe3rd being gay is not just about sex it is about love too.

Beautiful!
Love love!
So?

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Beautiful!
Love love!
So?

so it's not about just feeling guilty for having forbidden sex, it is innate, like heterosexuality, so you can not compare it to BDSM or adultery

 

[Moishe3rd]

so it's not about just feeling guilty for having forbidden sex, it is innate, like heterosexuality, so you can not compare it to BDSM or adultery

The fact that the male desires to mate with almost anything he sees, particularly a multitude of women, is also innate.
So is the male desire for seeing naked women or otherwise visualizing sexual desires.
So?
The Torah has always forbidden many forms of innate sexual desires.
Those who are compelled to indulge might feel guilty about it.
So?

Those who wish to publicize their guilty desires might justifiably be called a tad Confused...

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

The fact that the male desires to mate with almost anything he sees, particularly a multitude of women, is also innate.
So is the male desire for seeing naked women or otherwise visualizing sexual desires.
So?
The Torah has always forbidden many forms of innate sexual desires.
Those who are compelled to indulge might feel guilty about it.
So?

Those who wish to publicize their guilty desires might justifiably be called a tad Confused...

males do not desire to mate with anything they see.
But I agree sexual desire is innate and who we are attracted to and who we can also fall in love with is innate as well, however I am not talking about promiscuity, I am talking about sexual orientation. You can get married have a wife, raise a family and have sex with a woman that you love correct? Why can't a gay person have the same thing? Please keep to the topic and don't bring up orgies and BDSM please, thanks.

 

[Moishe3rd]

males do not desire to mate with anything they see.
But I agree sexual desire is innate and who we are attracted to and who we can also fall in love with is innate as well, however I am not talking about promiscuity, I am talking about sexual orientation. You can get married have a wife, raise a family and have sex with a woman that you love correct? Why can't a gay person have the same thing? Please keep to the topic and don't bring up orgies and BDSM please, thanks.

Well, my original sarcastic comment was calling the LGBT moniker as crazy or confused.
I went on to try and make a distinction that bisexual and trangendered have little or nothing to do with being gay or lesbian.
I then tried to elucidate my objections by pointing out that the Torah forbids public expressions of sexuality in any context.

You seemed to be objecting to the idea that specifically gay people were "in the closet" if they decided to live a Torah observant lifestyle in a Torah observant community.

I went on to point out that any forbidden or deviant behavior from serial adultery to looking at Internet porn to cheating on one's taxes is going to be "in the closet" if one wishes to live a Torah observant lifestyle in a Torah observant community.

You remarked about love.

Neither I nor the Torah, as far as I know, has any objection to love of almost anything other than false gods - unless this "love" is considered the same as indulging in forbidden behaviors (such as worshiping false gods).

As far as I know, in much of the US, a gay person can get married have a spouse, raise a family and have sex with whomever that they love.
So?

You have moved from what I was describing as "confused;" and then according to the Torah; and then "innate" to a legal argument of gay rights.
So?
Get married; have a family; do what you gotta do.

What does that have to do with my points or discussions?

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Well, my original sarcastic comment was calling the LGBT moniker as crazy or confused.
I went on to try and make a distinction that bisexual and trangendered have little or nothing to do with being gay or lesbian.

Well yes they do since a bisexual person is also attracted to the same sex they face homophobia when dating someone of the same sex and also biphobia as many people do not regard bisexuality as a valid sexual orientation. Transphobia is also a mixture of sexism especially in regards to transwomen and homophobia. Trans is not the same as a sexual orientation but they also need support in a homophobic world and therefore you have LGBT support services.

I then tried to elucidate my objections by pointing out that the Torah forbids public expressions of sexuality in any context.

Great but it is ok for you to tell everyone you are married to a woman right?

You seemed to be objecting to the idea that specifically gay people were "in the closet" if they decided to live a Torah observant lifestyle in a Torah observant community.

Often people do not just decide that, they are raised in that community from birth.

I went on to point out that any forbidden or deviant behavior from serial adultery to looking at Internet porn to cheating on one's taxes is going to be "in the closet" if one wishes to live a Torah observant lifestyle in a Torah observant community.

And I pointed out the difference between those things and sexual orientation.
You remarked about love.

Neither I nor the Torah, as far as I know, has any objection to love of almost anything other than false gods - unless this "love" is considered the same as indulging in forbidden behaviors (such as worshiping false gods).

But you have an objection to gay orthodox jews marrying someone of the same sex? Therefore they would have to live romantically deprived lives, am I right?
[/QUOTE]

 

[Moishe3rd]

Well yes they do since a bisexual person is also attracted to the same sex they face homophobia when dating someone of the same sex and also biphobia as many people do not regard bisexuality as a valid sexual orientation. Transphobia is also a mixture of sexism especially in regards to transwomen and homophobia. Trans is not the same as a sexual orientation but they also need support in a homophobic world and therefore you have LGBT support services.

Oy.
I need support in a gay leftist immoral racist unreal secular world but - do I get it? Nooooooo!
:sarcasm:
The confused and crazy people who believe that their genitalia are more important than anything else get their's. Where's mine??!!
:sarcasm:
(Must add sarcasm tags for the politically correct religion of perpetual offense)

Please. There ain't nothin' special about being gay. Enjoy your support groups but do not flaunt your sexual proclivities in my face.
You are perfectly free in this Land of Leftism to flaunt your peccadilloes wherever you choose but - stop whining if I don't invite you to fondle your partner at my Shabbos table. Because, if you don't decide to make an issue of it and keep your hands to yourself, you would be perfectly welcome at my Shabbos table (assuming that you are Jewish) if you were so interested in being invited.
Big whoop.
LBGT C!! is crazy just for making an issue out of their effing genitalia.
Stop it.
Be normal.
And love whoever you want to love.

Great but it is ok for you to tell everyone you are married to a woman right?

Eh?
I don' think so... I thinks that folk might find it a bit strange for me to tell everyone that....

And I pointed out the difference between those things and sexual orientation.

So, apparently, I didn't properly state my opinion.
I don't care about your sexual orientation.
I care about how the Torah and Jewish Law tell us to live.

But you have an objection to gay orthodox jews marrying someone of the same sex? Therefore they would have to live romantically deprived lives, am I right?

No. You are wrong.
As I stated, I don't give a damn about whom you "marry." Live. Love. Laugh and be Happy.
Just don't tell me that I have to approve of your publicizing your sexuality.
Why? Why must you inflict your particular peccadilloes on those who do not wish to play your game.
And, I would suggest you consult a psychologist to see if your beliefs whether BDSM and other sexual activities are innate or not. Personally, I have no wish for anyone to publicly inflict their sexual lifestyles on anyone else. I think it's rude.
Besides violating the Torah, it violates good manners which "throws sand into the machinery of society," messing up its gears, which never work very well in the first place.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I really think the issue is that other people make a big deal out of their genitalia.
But I see there is no point in continuing this particular discussion.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

"Disrespectful?"
Hmmm... Interesting question.
On one hand, yes - one should not respect the notion that bisexuality and trangenderism is the same as being homosexual or lesbian. That is a bizarre concept and a lie or, if you will, a "politically correct" concept which, in plain English means that it a bizarre concept and a lie.

No one is saying that bisexuality and transgenderism are the same as being gay or lesbian. Not sure where you're getting that from. We are part of an overall community with an intersecting culture and history, though.

On the other hand, it is wrong to be deliberately rude to those who are incapable of understanding the differences between ordinary sexuality and new invented "norms" of sexuality.

What do you mean by "new" or "invented"? It's nothing new. It's just that in the West, LGBT people have gained civil rights recently.

On the Gripping Hand, from a Torah point of view, G-d tells us that LBGT behaviors are, indeed, confused and contradictory towards the concept of Life and spiritual evolution.

Actually, no it doesn't and no they aren't. There is no "confusion" and LGBT people are quite capable of spiritual growth. You're just being bigoted and hateful.

Three opinions... fancy that!

And all completely wrong. Fancy that!