JWs & The Bible

[Brian2]

No. I can most definitely, and happily proceed. I'm just trying to help you to appreciate why we cannot study the Bible on our own, and really understand the message of the Bible without the help of the Christian congregation of anointed ones.
It's impossible to do.
I would say, one stands a better chance starting from Genesis, but even then, it's big rocks without Jehovah's spirit directed organization. Remember the Ethiopian Eunuch that Phillip helped in the book of Acts?
True, we will come up with many ideas, but will they be in harmony with the rest of scriptures? No. They will not.

I do understand what you mean by starting from scratch, but I can tell you that doing that would send me "bonkers" if I did not have the background and foundation I was referring you to earlier.

Just think about it.
Considering that verse 3 of Matthew 24 clearly shows that there are three "events", and then we can see the rest of the Chapter contains a whole heap of things Jesus said in "one mouthful". how would one even begin to put these in their right perspective? It's not as easy as this...

Most definitely though, I want to continue.
You don't seem to be giving me much on what I present though. Perhaps you are just focused on Daniel?

In Matt 24:3 there may not be 3 events however. Jesus coming and the end of the age could be one event.

 

[Brian2]

Let's start again from verse 3. Deeje asked a question. How about we go from there? I think proceeding one step at a time will be helpful, and the best place to start is with Jesus' parousía.
What is it, and what exactly does it refer to?
Let's begin here.

Jesus went away - he returned to heaven.
What next? Acts 2 says he sat at the right hand of God, as prophesied by David.
(Acts 2:32-35) 32 God resurrected this Jesus, and of this we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore, because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out what you see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”. . .

David prophesied what about that?
(Psalm 110:1, 2)
1 Jehovah declared to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”
2 Jehovah will extend the scepter of your power out of Zion, saying: “Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.”

So there was a period of time before Jesus would receive the scepter.

Why is there a period of time before Jesus would receive the scepter?
If Jesus is subduing in the midst of His enemies then they are not under His feet and so God is subduing for Him when He has the sceptre and so is ruling?
This sounds as if it is when the word of God, the Law went out from Jerusalem to the world 2000 years ago.

This is where Matthew 24 becomes more significant.
Matthew 24:3 “Tell us, ...what will be the sign of your presence...?”

4 In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for these things must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress. (Matthew 24:4-8)

It does rely on parousia meaning presence. If it means coming then the signs are related to the coming of Jesus.

So let's go forward, in the future.
There have always been wars, sicknesses, earthquakes, but we are looking for a sign that is significant, one that is separate and clear as to identify as the sign Jesus wants his followers to look for.

Do we see that sign?
We have. We saw it clearly, and the change was seen even by those who were not looking for it, nor following Christ. The Year the World Changed.
Thus a follower of Christ, who was on the lookout for this sign, could discern that Jesus began ruling as king invisible to human eyes, in the heavens.

Do we have any scriptural confirmation of this? Yes. There are several... at least five I can think of at the moment. I'll give two.

You may want to read this in your own time. I have to be somewhat brief, so that i don't exhaust you.
Do you know who the rider of the white horse is?
Take note of the sequence -

1. The white horse rides forth first = Jesus begins his rule.
2. Next, the red horse goes forth = War on an unprecedented scale. the war or 1914, is not called the Great war, or World war, for no reason. It was different... followed by another, and subsequent.
3. It was followed by Pestilences - the black horse.
4. then finally, the pale horse - poverty, and food shortages bringing a vast amount of deaths.

This is the composite sign indicating that Christ began ruling as king.

How is it that this is a composite sign that Christ began ruling as king?
I would say that this happened when Jesus went to heaven after His resurrection and received a Kingdom, as in Dan 7:13-14.
Surely Jesus has been King over the Kingdom of God from that time on. The Kingdom has been in existence from that time. That is what Jesus preached. Since John the Baptist the Kingdom of God is preached. Before that there the Law and Prophets were proclaimed. ( Luke 16:16)
Edit added: In regard to Jesus being King from about 2000 years ago I have noticed a couple of JWs using the following passage to show that Jesus is invisible:
1Tim 6:15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
But of course the passage is about the Father, whom nobody has seen, whereas many have seen Jesus.
However if JWs want to use that passage then it should be noted that the passage is describing Him as King of Kings. So He was a King back then. This would mean that this makes a contradiction in JW theology. So when did He become King?

 

[nPeace]

What are the signs indicating His presence?

I see you have finally turned up B.
I left some questions for you in response to your posts, but it seems you like to ask questions, but avoid those posed to you. This would make the second time.

The answer to your question has already been answered. but avoiding questions is bad, especially when you just want to argue without scriptural backing, or having to directly address scriptural questions.

Deeje is her own woman, but I can easily persuade her not to get into a "spat" with you, until you have addressed the questions posed to you in Post #2.

Did you miss those. It has been days since they were posted. You did get an indication of the post, didn't you?

 

[nPeace]

@Brian2 I'm discussing something with someone right now.
I have a few more things to discuss on Matthew 24, and the prophecy in Daniel.
It might take at least two more posts.
When I am finished here, I will look to see if you answered my questions. if you have not, I will wait until after you have addressed those to respond to any other. Check the OP, and the post after, to see that you didn't miss anything.

Otherwise, @Deeje can take them up with you, if she wants.

It's likely that my other posts to Pete, will address any other queries you might have, also.

 

[nPeace]

Only the JWs believe that (2 Timothy 2:19) . . . Says, Jehovah knows those who belong to him. No other bible refers to 'I AM ' in his Hebrew name YHWH, which the JWs have erroneous translated as "Jehovah."

Paul is referencing Numbers 16:5, where the divine name is used. So he would have used the divine name.
If you go to the Appendix - A5, of the revised version of the NWT, it would explain.

 

[nPeace]

@Pete in Panama I take it that you are still listening, and your silence is an indication to go on, so I will proceed.

Taking verses 45-51 I want to zero in on verse 45.
Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?

We know that master is Jesus. We agree.
The master appoints the slave - the faithful and discrete one.
The slave has a duty - feed Christ's domestics with food at the proper time.

Why is this so important? The verses we read earlier says that the end will come suddenly, and unexpected. So it is important that the domestics are fed spiritually, so that they do not lull off to sleep.

Who really is the faithful and discrete slave appointed by the master jesus Christ?
It is those who are busy in the masters work. it is those who are keeping watchful for the Lord's visit, and his future coming.

Can we identify them? Yes we can. We must. Otherwise, how will we be fed? How will we know where to feed?

To abbreviate what could be a long post.
Point's in review...

1. Jesus had given the sign prior to his presence, and its fulfillment.
2. The sign was clear... but to whom especially? Those looking for it.
3. The Devil was hurled from heaven down to the earth, when Jesus became present as king - the white horse rode forth.
4. The red horse galloped forth after that - a great sword in the hand of its rider, to take away peace from the earth - World War 1 took place - the Great war... followed by the other two horses. (See this video)
5. Jesus thus began ruling in the year 1914 (the year World war 1 began)

However, his followers were looking for the sign. this is where Daniel comes in.
Please watch the video.

Jehovah's Witnesses have been proclaiming the year 1914, as a significant year, long before it arrived.
True, they did not know the full details of what would take place, but that is not surprising.
Joseph and Daniel did not know the full details concerning the prophetic dreams they were given. Ezekiel and John neither.

They all had to wait until the prophecy was fulfilled to fully understand the details.
Similarly, although jesus followers were on the watch for his presence, they discerned from the prophesies, the timing, and they proclaimed it, but the details only became fully realized later.
Jesus said there would be wars, food-shortages, earthquakes. we see these all taking place.

There are lots more I can say to demonstrate, who really is the faithful, and discrete slave, but I'll leave that for later. At this time. I will remain silent, and let others speak.

Also, I will apologize to @Brian2 for my obvious expression of annoyance at his avoidance of specific questions related to the Bible. You are here now Brian, and I thank you for turning up, although I believe you have other intentions than discussing the Bible texts persons give you.
Nevertheless, please, you are welcomed. and enjoy your stay. Maybe @Deeje will be happy to address your posts.
I will do so, only where there is a fairness to respond to questions directly posed to you... on the Bible of course.
I have no desire to argue on what you believe.
Present scriptures, and we will discuss the scriptures, and see if they match up to beliefs.
The topic of the thread is JWs & the Bible, so all you have to do is simply show that JWs teachings do not match up to the Bible.... using scripture, of course.

 

[nPeace]

It certainly looks important to see parousia as meaning presence instead of coming. Does this apply to parousia in every instance where it is used in relation to Jesus?
Are there reasons to divide up the prophecy like that and how is it known how to do it?

Please provide the scriptures you are referring to. Also please specifically state what you disagree with from the post, as it clearly explains the use of the Greek word parousia. certainly you are not asking me to repeat, are you?

 

[nPeace]

In Matt 24:3 there may not be 3 events however. Jesus coming and the end of the age could be one event.

This is why we are dealing with the scriptures and not could bes. Any could bes, could be left alone. In fact I think they should.

The use of the word coming, would make the text take on the meaning you suggest - that is more specifically the time just before (but can all be put into one) the conclusion of the system of things, because the coming of Christ, as mentioned in the text I referred to here, uses the word coming.
It is important that we recognize that, since that is not referring to when Christ comes as described here...
(Matthew 24:29-31) 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

Notice, a differnt Greek word is used (ἔρχομαι) erchomai.
So it is important to have the correct rendering of Matthew 24:3.
If you use coming, you completely muddle up the account of Matthew 24.
Using the correct term - presence, as explained, in post #28,

Consider the Greek word parousia. When translated coming, it can convey a wrong understanding of what the original writers were stating.

Consider HELPS Word-studies
3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).

[3952 (parousía) is "used in the east as a technical expression for the royal visit of a king, or emperor. The word means literally 'the being beside,' thus, 'the personal presence' " (K. Wuest, 3, Bypaths, 33).]

When we consider the literal meaning, right away, we see that coming does not fit.
Coming does not mean arrived, or present.
Yet this is what the Greek word conveys.- personal presence... from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation".​

Are you saying that using presence in Matthew 24:3 is incorrect?

 

[Deeje]

Only the JWs believe that (2 Timothy 2:19) . . . Says, Jehovah knows those who belong to him. No other bible refers to 'I AM ' in his Hebrew name YHWH, which the JWs have erroneous translated as "Jehovah."

Two points of interest in that scripture (2 Timothy 2:19).....
“Jehovah knows those who belong to him” is a quote from Numbers 16:5 where the Tetragrammaton is there in the Hebrew......and also “calling on the name of Jehovah from Joel 2:32 which specifically mention calling on the name of YHWH....“Yahweh” (Jehovah in English) not Jesus.

If one of the strictest branches of the Jewish faith recognizes that God’s name means “I Will Be What I Will Be” then you you need to make your complaints to them, not us.

God’s name is not just a statement of his existence because his people knew of his existence long before God liberated them from Egypt. Only after that liberation were his people taken into a covenant that bound them to him and obligated them to obey his laws given through Moses as mediator of that covenant.

The only ones in error are those who have their own ideas about how to interpret the Bible. God does not reveal his truth to just one person. His people are a brotherhood who accept his son as Messiah and are “fed” by the “slave” appointed by Jesus to do so....(Matthew 24:45) Do you believe that is you?

 

[The Anointed]

Let's start again from verse 3. Deeje asked a question. How about we go from there? I think proceeding one step at a time will be helpful, and the best place to start is with Jesus' parousía.
What is it, and what exactly does it refer to?
Let's begin here.

Jesus went away - he returned to heaven.
What next? Acts 2 says he sat at the right hand of God, as prophesied by David.
(Acts 2:32-35) 32 God resurrected this Jesus, and of this we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore, because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out what you see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”. . .

David prophesied what about that?
(Psalm 110:1, 2)
1 Jehovah declared to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”
2 Jehovah will extend the scepter of your power out of Zion, saying: “Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.”

So there was a period of time before Jesus would receive the scepter.
We all know what a scepter is.

Jesus will begin his rule.
Now where is Jesus? In heaven with God. Can we see him? No. can we see when he is crowned? No.

This is where Matthew 24 becomes more significant.
Matthew 24:3 “Tell us, ...what will be the sign of your presence...?”

4 In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for these things must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress. (Matthew 24:4-8)

A lot is said there, but we can safely say, when we think about it, Jesus is responding to a question that contains three aspects, but one directly related to his invisible crowning as king.
Therefore the sign he gives must be one that his followers can clearly identify, and say, this is it.

Jesus gives a composite sign - many parts making the whole, which means that all that he identifies must be present.
Does that mean we take ever verse after verse 3 in Chapter 24, and put them all together? No. Why not?
Jesus is answering a question with three different events.
Therefore, all that is said will not apply to all three events.

For example...
The destruction of Jerusalem occured in 70 CE
During that period, or before, did we also see this... nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress. ?

Not on a world wide scale that would be any different to wars, sicknesses etc, that we normally see.
So we can put this event aside, as to occur in the future.
Let's assume it occurs during the time Jesus is present as king.

So let's go forward, in the future.
There have always been wars, sicknesses, earthquakes, but we are looking for a sign that is significant, one that is separate and clear as to identify as the sign Jesus wants his followers to look for.

Do we see that sign?
We have. We saw it clearly, and the change was seen even by those who were not looking for it, nor following Christ. The Year the World Changed.
Thus a follower of Christ, who was on the lookout for this sign, could discern that Jesus began ruling as king invisible to human eyes, in the heavens.

Do we have any scriptural confirmation of this? Yes. There are several... at least five I can think of at the moment. I'll give two.
#1
Revelation 6

You may want to read this in your own time. I have to be somewhat brief, so that i don't exhaust you.
Do you know who the rider of the white horse is?
Take note of the sequence -

1. The white horse rides forth first = Jesus begins his rule.
2. Next, the red horse goes forth = War on an unprecedented scale. the war or 1914, is not called the Great war, or World war, for no reason. It was different... followed by another, and subsequent.
3. It was followed by Pestilences - the black horse.
4. then finally, the pale horse - poverty, and food shortages bringing a vast amount of deaths.

This is the composite sign indicating that Christ began ruling as king.

Would you believe my browser just crashed?
I'm building a project, so low on memory. I had better continue on a new page, before I have to type this out again.
Thankful for RF's saving feature.
I could have lost all of this.

Let's begin here; 'Jesus went away - he returned to heaven.' Where in the scriptures does it say that Jesus 'RETURNED' to heaven?

The authors of the Good News Catholic Study Edition of the bible, who believe that the man Jesus pre-existed as an alien non-human lifeform, who was the co-creator of the cosmos, etc, have erroneously interpreted the Greek ἀναβαίνω (anabainó) which means—[to go up, ascend,] as “Return,” their interpretation of John 20: 17; erroneously states: ““Do not hold me, for I have not yet gone back up to ‘THE’ Father: but go to my brothers and say to them, “I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God, etc.

Whereas the correct translation is, ““Do not hold me, for I have not yet ASCENDED to ‘THE’ Father: but go to my brothers and say to them, “I am ASCENDING to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God, etc.

There are many Greek words that can be translated to mean "RETURN," but the Greek ἀναβαίνω (anabaino) which is correctly translated as “ASCEND” is not one of them. "Our Father who art in heaven." We all have the one Father; this is why the man Jesus refers to our heavenly Father as [THE Father.]

 

[nPeace]

Let's begin here; 'Jesus went away - he returned to heaven.' Where in the scriptures does it say that Jesus 'RETURNED' to heaven?

The authors of the Good News Catholic Study Edition of the bible, who believe that the man Jesus pre-existed as an alien non-human lifeform, who was the co-creator of the cosmos, etc, have erroneously interpreted the Greek ἀναβαίνω (anabainó) which means—[to go up, ascend,] as “Return,” their interpretation of John 20: 17; erroneously states: ““Do not hold me, for I have not yet gone back up to ‘THE’ Father: but go to my brothers and say to them, “I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God, etc.

Whereas the correct translation is, ““Do not hold me, for I have not yet ASCENDED to ‘THE’ Father: but go to my brothers and say to them, “I am ASCENDING to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God, etc.

There are many Greek words that can be translated to mean "RETURN," but the Greek ἀναβαίνω (anabaino) which is correctly translated as “ASCEND” is not one of them. "Our Father who art in heaven." We all have the one Father; this is why the man Jesus refers to our heavenly Father as [THE Father.]

(John 3:13) . . .Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man.
(John 6:62) . . .What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before?
(Acts 2:32-35) 32 God resurrected this Jesus, and of this we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore, because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out what you see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’

Is that enough, or do you need more?
Do you have something regarding what the Bible actually says?

 

[Deeje]

Let's begin here; 'Jesus went away - he returned to heaven.' Where in the scriptures does it say that Jesus 'RETURNED' to heaven?

The authors of the Good News Catholic Study Edition of the bible, who believe that the man Jesus pre-existed as an alien non-human lifeform, who was the co-creator of the cosmos, etc, have erroneously interpreted the Greek ἀναβαίνω (anabainó) which means—[to go up, ascend,] as “Return,” their interpretation of John 20: 17; erroneously states: ““Do not hold me, for I have not yet gone back up to ‘THE’ Father: but go to my brothers and say to them, “I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God, etc.

Jesus himself often spoke of the high position that he had held in heaven. Once he prayed: “Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.” (John 17:5)

He also said to his listeners: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above.” (John 8:23)

He told Nicodemus..."Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man." (John 3:13)

Paul wrote...."But when the full limit of the time arrived, God sent his Son, who was born of a woman and who was under law". (Galatians 4:4)

Jesus was "the" Son of God, in heaven before he was sent to redeem mankind....."the firstborn of all creation"(Colossians 1:15) He is "the image" of his Father but he is not God......he is God's "only begotten son".....but certainly NOT the only son of God. Even Adam was a "son of God" (Luke 3:38) by virtue of the fact that he was a direct creation of God.....as all "sons of God" are.

Those who will rule with Christ in heaven will be "adopted" as God's "sons" and given a "new birth".....as spirit beings who will live in the spirit realm as part of God's heavenly Kingdom.

Whereas the correct translation is, ““Do not hold me, for I have not yet ASCENDED to ‘THE’ Father: but go to my brothers and say to them, “I am ASCENDING to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God, etc.

Ascending to heaven is exactly what he did, (as the NWT says) but he promised his apostles that he was going away to prepare a place for them in heaven.....

John 14:2-3...
"In the house of my Father are many dwelling places. Otherwise, I would have told you, for I am going my way to prepare a place for you. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will receive you home to myself, so that where I am you also may be."

When Jesus said that he had not yet ascended to his God and Father, it is obvious that the Father is still his God, even in heaven....
Revelation 3:14...recorded well after Jesus' returned to heaven, says....
"The one who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name."

How can God have a God?....or the Son be his own Father? What nonsense!

There are many Greek words that can be translated to mean "RETURN," but the Greek ἀναβαίνω (anabaino) which is correctly translated as “ASCEND” is not one of them. "Our Father who art in heaven." We all have the one Father; this is why the man Jesus refers to our heavenly Father as [THE Father.]

Jesus said he was going away to prepare a place in his Father's house for his disciples....and that he would return to take them...."home". What has the word "return" got to do with anything that fights with that simple statement? He had to ascend back to heaven to fulfill his promise.

 

[Brian2]

I see you have finally turned up B.
I left some questions for you in response to your posts, but it seems you like to ask questions, but avoid those posed to you. This would make the second time.

The answer to your question has already been answered. but avoiding questions is bad, especially when you just want to argue without scriptural backing, or having to directly address scriptural questions.

Deeje is her own woman, but I can easily persuade her not to get into a "spat" with you, until you have addressed the questions posed to you in Post #2.

Did you miss those. It has been days since they were posted. You did get an indication of the post, didn't you?

I asked about the signs of the parousia before I saw the answer a few posts down.
I did not miss post 2 but thought I would find out what had been going on since I was not here.

 

[Brian2]

#2 Revelation 12
The events here describe Satan being cast from heaven to the earth, where he can no longer traverse to heaven.
The Bible describes the situation on the earth, this way...
"...Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.” (Revelation 12:12)

Woe for the earth.
Was the earth not experiencing woes before? Not on the scale mentioned before. So the timing of Michael hurling Satan out of heaven coincides with Jesus beginning his rule, and the events that followed the start of his ride - first on the tables - rid the heavens of God's chief adversary, Satan the Devil.
Evidence that Jesus began his rule as king - he is present.

How is that evidence that Jesus began His rule as King?

 

[Brian2]

@Brian2 as far as I know, based on what i have read, it is the scriptures which said the things you buck against.
I previously quoted the scriptures where jesus commanded his followers to go into the world, and preach and teach the good news, and he said that it will be done as a witness to all the nations, before the end comes. Matthew 24:14 ; Matthew 28:18-20.
Jesus is the one who instructed us in the method - Matthew 9:35-38 ; Luke 8:1 ; 10:1, 2 ; Romans 10:13-15, the message (the kingdom of God), the territory (all the nations of the earth), and the duration (until the end of the world, before the end comes).
Therefore, questions: how is it you say, these are commands of men? Did I misquote a scriptural text? Which command did we alter? Please state.

Preaching the good news of the Kingdom is important work. You are misstating my concerns however.
For a start it is Jesus who sends people out into the harvest fields. The WT has made it a command of theirs that all JWs go out and do it as they tell them to do it. Anyone who does not want to do that can be kicked out of the JWs. The unforgivable sin for the WT seems to be not going from door to door. But no it is more than that, if anyone disagrees with the teachings of the WT that person can be kicked out of the organisation and lose their chance at eternal life, anyone who disobeys the man made commands of the WT can suffer the same fate.
This is the way a control freak does the job of being the shepherd of the flock.
Matt 20: 25 But Jesus called them aside and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them. 26 It shall not be this way among you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,…

Questions:

Do you believe that God has an organization on earth?
Then would Jesus not be the one running that organization? Would that organization not be the one carrying out the commands and the work the Lord Jesus started, and ordered his followers to continue?

Jehovah's witnesses are obeying the orders of Jesus Christ. Is that not so?

Jesus has the Body of Christ, the Church, on earth today and it is led by the Spirit of God in what it does. There are various organisations which foster the work of preaching but not all members of the Body have the same task of preaching. It is as directed by Jesus, the head of the body. That is the way the Body of Christ operates.

Can someone please tell me, are these the same words (not in exact wording) you find in your Bible, said by jesus christ himself?
Are these therefore the word of men, or is it not true that Jesus said we must disown ourselves, and put him and the will of his father first, in order to be his disciple.
Thus family and friends should not be allowed to prevent one from following Jesus. Is this not what we are reading in the scriptures?

I'm not sure what the scriptures quoted have to do with the question.

Question

Brian: Does jesus not ask us to live a life of sacrifice, if we are to be accepted by him? How are these the word of men?

It is clear, and I hope it is to everyone, the only one holding what you described as a whip, is Jesus Christ, because what you have a problem with, is from him, and not any man, that is, if you are using the Bible.
Other than that, I would have to wonder if you take the Bible seriously.

I use the Bible and am a member of an organisation with members who try to obey the Lord.

You say...

To my mind, this seems to highlight the crux of the matter.
I think most Atheists - not all - dismiss the Bible, because there are certain things it says, that they don't want to follow.
Someone told me, there is one word he hates, which the Bible mentions a lot... "Don't. Don't do this. don't do that. Don't..." So because he likes to do certain things, for which the Bible says "Don't", he has a problem with it.
It seems to me, this is the same problem you are having, Brian. In fact, I mentioned before that many people join a religion, not because they think it speaks the truth, but because it is a part of the world. in other words, because it claims to represent Christ, but it offers its members "a taste of the things of the world".
It's as Paul describes... (2 Timothy 4:3, 4) 3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled. 4 They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories.

However, such a position benefits no one, as the apostle John says.
(1 John 2:15-17) 15 Do not love either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world - the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life - does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but the one who does the will of God remains forever.
(James 4:4) Adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is making himself an enemy of God.

I think that's a sad way to end, don't you?

What I gave is some of the things that the WT commands it's members to do and not to do,,,,,,,,,,,,and these things must be obeyed to be a JW. That is "lording it over" the congregation. That is the way of the world.
It's not just in things JWs must and must not do but in what they believe that the WT is the boss. In these things it is not the Bible that the JWs are obeying but an organisation that they believe is the only organisation representing God on earth today.
Who says it is the only organisation? Only the WT says that.
Why believe them when they keep changing their teachings and in that they show they are not being led by the Spirit of God?

 

[nPeace]

I asked about the signs of the parousia before I saw the answer a few posts down.
I did not miss post 2 but thought I would find out what had been going on since I was not here.

I don't know, about you, but when I want to find out what's going on in a thread, I read the OP, and then read through the comments.

How is that evidence that Jesus began His rule as King?

Perhaps if you read the previous posts, you would get the connection.

Preaching the good news of the Kingdom is important work. You are misstating my concerns however.
For a start it is Jesus who sends people out into the harvest fields. The WT has made it a command of theirs that all JWs go out and do it as they tell them to do it. Anyone who does not want to do that can be kicked out of the JWs. The unforgivable sin for the WT seems to be not going from door to door. But no it is more than that, if anyone disagrees with the teachings of the WT that person can be kicked out of the organisation and lose their chance at eternal life, anyone who disobeys the man made commands of the WT can suffer the same fate.
This is the way a control freak does the job of being the shepherd of the flock.
Matt 20: 25 But Jesus called them aside and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them. 26 It shall not be this way among you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,…

So you are saying that Jesus has not sent the ones who come at your door preaching the message of the good news of God's kingdom, and endeavoring to teach, and make disciples, and their associates who preach likewise throughout the world, along with all of the Governing Body?
Are you saying that a person is kicked out of the organization for not preaching? Please provide a reference supporting that claim.

Jesus has the Body of Christ, the Church, on earth today and it is led by the Spirit of God in what it does. There are various organisations which foster the work of preaching but not all members of the Body have the same task of preaching. It is as directed by Jesus, the head of the body. That is the way the Body of Christ operates.

There are indeed many organization, but that does not make them the Body of Christ.
What makes an organization the body of Christ?

I'm not sure what the scriptures quoted have to do with the question.

Did you not claim... Quote It is not the Spirit of God at work but a group of men with a whip.
Be united in what WE say, obey what WE tell you to, go out from door to door, etc etc or you are out and you only have salvation in us, nowhere else, and when you are out you will lose family and friends as much as we can make that happen. But we do it because we love you. Unquote

What were you trying to say about losing family and friends?
Maybe I misunderstood you. Please clarify.

I use the Bible and am a member of an organisation with members who try to obey the Lord.

You try to obey the Lord? That's a good thing, isn't it. May I ask in what?
Why do you believe that you are not to obey the Lord in the command he gave to his disciples at Matthew 28:19, 20, and why do you think that you are exempt from being a part of Matthew 24:14, and Romans 10:13-15? Why do you think this work does not apply to you?

What I gave is some of the things that the WT commands it's members to do and not to do,,,,,,,,,,,,and these things must be obeyed to be a JW. That is "lording it over" the congregation. That is the way of the world.
It's not just in things JWs must and must not do but in what they believe that the WT is the boss. In these things it is not the Bible that the JWs are obeying but an organisation that they believe is the only organisation representing God on earth today.

You say JWs lord it over their members, but only you say that - when I say you, I am using it in the same way you are, when you say only JWs say..., because we know that it is not only JWs that say what they say, and I know others say what you say, but we are conversing.

There are many non- JWs who do not agree with you, that the body of overseers of JWs lord it over the flock. So this is your opinion.
Otherwise please provide scripture to show that JWs lord it over anyone.
Remember, we are not discussing your opinions and beliefs, but the Bible.

Who says it is the only organisation? Only the WT says that.
Why believe them when they keep changing their teachings and in that they show they are not being led by the Spirit of God?

According to the scriptures, there is only one body of Christ, There is only one faith. There is only one faithful and discrete slave. There is only one truth.
Do you disagree with this?

Therefore, it is not JWs alone that says this.
JWs are the only organization on earth that the identifying marks I mentioned earlier apply to, or fit.
Ill put it here again, because you seem to have either missed some questions, or evaded them.

Jesus is the one who instructed us in the method - Matthew 9:35-38 ; Luke 8:1 ; 10:1, 2 ; Romans 10:13-15, the message (the kingdom of God), the territory (all the nations of the earth), and the duration (until the end of the world, before the end comes).
Therefore, questions: how is it you say, these are commands of men? Did I misquote a scriptural text? Which command did we alter? Please state.

Questions: Do you believe that God has an organization on earth?
Then would Jesus not be the one running that organization? Would that organization not be the one carrying out the commands and the work the Lord Jesus started, and ordered his followers to continue?

Jehovah's witnesses are obeying the orders of Jesus Christ. Is that not so?

1. They preach and teach about the kingdom to every tribe and nation throughout the earth.
2. They follow Jesus example in his method of organizing in twos (two by two) those sent out to preach.
3. They go to the homes of people, and stay in the homes of those who show interest - teaching them, and making disciples... baptizing them. Those in turn become disciples - followers of Christ.
4. They do this urgently, and continually.
   (2 Timothy 4:2) . . .Preach the word; be at it urgently in favorable times and difficult times; reprove, reprimand, exhort, with all patience and art of teaching.

Question: Which one of these, is a commandment of men, and not from the lord Jesus Christ?
Another question: Apart from Jehovah's Witnesses, which organization on earth do you know of that does these things, or compares?

Please answer the questions. A dialog between two persons, at time involves question which helps it progress productively. These are important to any further conversation.

Regarding the changes, that has been covered. If you are still hung up on that, you'll have to deal with the post that deals with that.
Did you miss it? Just go back and take your time.

 

[Pete in Panama]

No. I can most definitely, and happily proceed. I'm just trying to help you to appreciate why we cannot study the Bible on our own, and really understand the message of the Bible...

My suggestion is that u & I study together. I think a lot of good can come from it. If you honestly don't think that any good can from our joint study then we can part friends. If you are willing to give it a try then let's look together & see what we see together.

...Most definitely though, I want to continue.
You don't seem to be giving me much on what I present though. Perhaps you are just focused on Daniel?

It's what I was saying back in my post #8 --

The JW's & me got along really well, there were a lot of things we had in common.

What really put a damper on it all though was when we started reading Bible together about the return of the Spirit of Christ --Mathew 23 iirc. It was the reference to Daniel where we parted company & I've always found that unfortunate. Please let me know if ur interested in going over that part w/ me again.

-- that I'd hit it off great before & we hit a snag on the Christ's reference (in Matthew 24 apparently, verse 15)--

abomination that causes desolation, spoken of through the prophet Daniel

--& I thought it'd be convenient to take of where'd stopped the last time. My hope was that this would be acceptable to you, if so let's go for it & if not we'll think about it.

 

[Pete in Panama]

...Jesus was "the" Son of God, in heaven before he was sent to redeem mankind...

Say, if y'all want to join in the discussion that nPeace & I are into ur more than welcome. What I was saying above--

My suggestion is that u & I study together...

--might work out better if u could help me out if there was something I was trying to say but was not finding the right words.

 

[nPeace]

@Pete in Panama you are free to look through the thread at what I posted. You likely missed a lot, but it covers everything we were discussing. I didn't leave any gaps. Take a look, and let me know what you find.

 

[Pete in Panama]

@Pete in Panama you are free to look through the thread at what I posted. You likely missed a lot, but it covers everything we were discussing. I didn't leave any gaps. Take a look, and let me know what you find.

My hope is that we can follow Christ's instruction together. If you want to talk about it then super! If not I'll thank you & we can be on our way. Whatever u say is fine w/ me. How about u @Deeje?