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Kaaba in Bible
- Thread starter Eihab
- Start date
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
Usually when remarkable claims are being made, I expect more material than a comment that it was read in an Islamic forum.
The Hebrew bible does not deal with Islam, but with the religion and society of the Israelites, it is not uncommon however for Islamic leaders to try and substantiate Islamic tradition through linking it to the rich legacy of the Hebrew bible.
This claim would at least need to show that 'House of God' mentioned in Genesis was built where Mecca later came to be.
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
There are some sites in English about this subject both from the Islamic view and a counter view. they will easily come up on a search.
the first point I would try to make, for a case of the Kaaba mentioned in the book of Genesis, is to show where the 'House of God' was built, showing that it talks about the region of Hijaz, Western Saudi Arabia for example would be a starting point.
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
I understand that it may be in various Islamic traditions. however that certainly does not shed light on the Biblical book of Genesis and the claim that the Kaaba is mentioned in it.
Eihab
Journalist
Yes, I've found it.
The Bible mentions about the valley of Baca in connection with the pilgrimage. Below is the quote from Psalms 84 (NIV):
1 How lovely is your dwelling place, O LORD Almighty!
2 My soul yearns, even faints, for the courts of the LORD; my heart and my flesh cry out for the living God.
3 Even the sparrow has found a home, and the swallow a nest for herself, where she may have her young-- a place near your altar, O LORD Almighty, my King and my God.
4 Blessed are those who dwell in your house; they are ever praising you.
5 Blessed are those whose strength is in you, who have set their hearts on pilgrimage.
6 As they pass through the Valley of Baca, they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools.
7 They go from strength to strength, till each appears before God in Zion.
8 Hear my prayer, O LORD God Almighty; listen to me, O God of Jacob.
9 Look upon our shield, O God; look with favor on your anointed one.
10 Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked.
11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield; the LORD bestows favor and honor; no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless.
12 O LORD Almighty, blessed is the man who trusts in you.
1 How lovely is your dwelling place, O LORD Almighty!
2 My soul yearns, even faints, for the courts of the LORD; my heart and my flesh cry out for the living God.
3 Even the sparrow has found a home, and the swallow a nest for herself, where she may have her young-- a place near your altar, O LORD Almighty, my King and my God.
4 Blessed are those who dwell in your house; they are ever praising you.
5 Blessed are those whose strength is in you, who have set their hearts on pilgrimage.
6 As they pass through the Valley of Baca, they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools.
7 They go from strength to strength, till each appears before God in Zion.
8 Hear my prayer, O LORD God Almighty; listen to me, O God of Jacob.
9 Look upon our shield, O God; look with favor on your anointed one.
10 Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked.
11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield; the LORD bestows favor and honor; no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless.
12 O LORD Almighty, blessed is the man who trusts in you.
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
OK Eihab, lets try and keep it in order. you were talking about the Book of Genesis. you do realise that Psalms is a different book in the Bible, right?
I will comment on this Biblical passages though. the Bible says 'Baca', it does not say Mecca (as I read the Muslim claim about these verses) the dwelling place of the Kaaba. also it is pretty straightforward to remember that if we are talking about Mecca it did not exist while these Biblical passages were written. further more these passages speak about Zion, which lies over 1000 KM from Mecca, its therefore safe to understand that the Israelite scribes are talking about pilgrimage to Jerusalem.
Eihab
Journalist
Wrong.
Actually Caladan before I come to this forum, I didn't know even the difference between old and new testament, I never care about religions, any maybe you notice that all my posts here are consist of questions, because the more I ask, the more I discover how ignorant I was.As for Bacca, Yes it's mentioned in Qur'an, and let me bring some information about this point from another site, and I'm sorry for doing that (copy&paste):
If you want to read more, this is the link.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/paran.htm
... waitting for your answer.
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
Understanding the difference between the OT and NT is very very basic information. especially if you want to have a normal discussion with other people about religion.Wrong.
dont you think you need to slow down then, and learn the very basics, before you throw 'sensationlized' topics most of us are not going to take seriously?
Its good to ask the right questions, mostly the normal ones, down to earth ones, that deal with the practical issues. trust me, its a safe bet. if you 'didnt care about religions until now' did not know the difference between the OT and the NT, try to consider that most people here have at least a very basic understanding of these issues, we are really not looking for wild claims that would validate Islam.
A few important details. Baca is a Hebrew name for a valley in Palestine, a name which was used centuries before the appearance of Mecca, and the Qur'anic Bakkah. further more these verses discuss Zion, which is in Jerusalem. so now you have asked your first questions and jumped into the water, do you think you can in any way show that the Qur'ans Bakkah is the same as the Hebrew Bible's Baca, further more can you show that it geographically speaks about where Mecca is? a city which was built perhaps a thousand years after these passages were written?
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Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
With all due respect I've touched the very basic information which sould be examined for the claims and the verses you provided, namely the name place Baca/Bakkah and where it is located. I provided a challange for you, which is to show that the Hebrew Baca refers to Mecca which is over 1000 KM from Zion which is in Jerusalem and which the Biblical verses discuss, and the fact that Baca is a Hebrew name for a place in Palestine many centuries before Mecca even existed.
you than jump to quote passages about the Israelites in Sinai and pseudo-archaeological 'evidence' of the location of Mt Sinai.
So pardon Eihab. I asked you already to try and make simple order in your own thread. you started it by throwing claims about the book of Genesis, than dropped the book of Genesis and jumped to the Book of Psalms, than you dropped it and jumped to verses about the wilderness of Paran, the exodus of the Israelites, Paul and the New Testament, and archaeological claims that no self respecting archaeologist would dare to deal with.
Eihab
Journalist
No need for any challenges, because I come here to learn not to make a show, if I really have the evidence or know the answer I would not ask.
I hope your answer makes you feel satisfied.
also Hebrew bible doesn't deal with christianity and Jesus himslef that's wahy they thought that they crucified him. neither christianity consider that it is originally judaism it is a fact. no one can deny christianity is part of judaism. ecept jews. who refused Jesus.
As for what we see nowadays of contradictions in the copies of the Torah and Gospel that are extant today, the reason for that is clear and obvious. It is because these two Books have fallen prey to distortion and alteration, with things being taken away, added and changed. That is in addition to the fact that the sources and manuscripts that have come down to us today cannot be trusted. This is what explains any differences that researchers or students find between these two Books and the Holy Qur’an which has been transmitted to us in a mutawaatir fashion (i.e., narrated by so many from so many that it is inconceivable that they could all have agreed upon a lie), as is attested by both believers and nonbelievers.
Nevertheless we say that Abraham’s arrival in the land of Makkah al-Mukarramah – and indeed his building of the Sacred House – are historical events that are attested to in the Torah and other ancient historical books. We cannot deny the fact that there are different interpretations of these texts of the Torah and so on, and that the context is open to different interpretations. Our aim here here is to confirm that such indications exist. However, the matter should be left to scholars to examine the story in the Old Testament, in order to reach a definitive conclusion.
These references include the following:
1.
In the book of Genesis 16:7 it says, after mentioning the story of Ibraaheem (Abraham) going in unto Haajar (Hagar) and her becoming pregnant, then Sarai’s [Sarah’s] complaint to Ibraaheem about her:
[Biblical quotations in English are taken from the King James Version (KJV); some place names have been changed, followed by the place name, in brackets, that is mentioned in the KJV. This is done in line with the point the author is making – see below]
And when Sarai [Sarah] dealt hardly [harshly] with her, she fled from her face.
7 And the angel of the Lord found her by a fountain [spring] of water in the wilderness, by the fountain [spring] in the way to the Hijaz (Shur).
8 And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai.
…
13 And she called the name of the Lord that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?
14 Wherefore the well was called Be’er lahai roi (Well of the Living One Who sees me); behold, it is between Kadesh and Bered.
See how the name of the Hijaz is mentioned, and Hajar’s departure to that place, after which the blessing of the “Well of the Living One Who sees me” is bestowed by Allah, may He be glorified and exalted; this is the Well of Zamzam.
2.
In Genesis 13:1-18 it says:
And Abram went up out of Egypt, he, and his wife, and all that he had, and Lot with him, towards the qiblah (into the south).
2 And Abram was very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold.
3 And he went on his journeys from the south even to Bethel, unto the place where his tent had been at the beginning, between Bethel and Hai;
4 Unto the place of the altar, which he had made there at the first: and there Abram called on the name of the Lord.
…
18 Then Abram removed his tent, and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which is in Hebron, and built there an altar unto the Lord.
In Genesis 20:1 it also says:
And Abraham journeyed from thence towards the land of the qiblah (the south country), and dwelled between Kadesh and Shur, and sojourned in Gerar.
We have quoted these texts [in the original Arabic of this article] from the Torah as translated into Arabic by Sa‘eed al-Fayyoomi, (d. 943 AH); the King James Version of the Bible has been used here]. He was the first one to translate the Old Testament into Arabic. He also wrote a commentary for most of its books. We have not found this Torah anywhere else except in the book of Idrees ‘Abayzah entitled Madhkal ila Diraasat at-Tawraat wa Naqdiha ma‘a Tarjumatihi al-‘Arabiyyah li Sa‘diyyaa Ka’oon al-Fayyoomi (Introduction to the Study and Critique of the Torah, accompanied by its Translation into Arabic by Sa‘diyyaa Ka’oon al-Fayyoomi).
In other well-known translations of the Torah [into Arabic], instead of the Hijaz it mentions “by a fountain [spring] of water in the wilderness, by the fountain [spring] in the way to Shur” (Genesis 16:7), and instead of the qiblah it mentions “the south” (Genesis 13:1).
[Translator’s note: some English translations say “Negev” instead of “the south’; in the Bible, this word is used for the direction “south”]
For more information please see (in Arabic): Nabi Ard al-Janoob (Prophet of the Southern Land) by Jamaal ad-Deen ash-Sharqaawi (p. 18-109)
3.
In Genesis 21:21 it says of Ismaa‘eel (peace be upon him):
21 And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.
This is how it appears in the Samaritan Torah (also known as the Samaritan Pentateuch), and in al-Fayyoomi’s translation of the Torah.
Although many passages in the Torah suggest that Paran is in Palestine, Imam al-Qarraafi said in his book al-Ajwibah al-Faakhirah (p. 165): Paran is Makkah, according to the consensus of the People of the Book. Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah said in al-Jawaab as-Saheeh liman baddala Deen al-Maseeh (5/200):
There is no difference of opinion between the Muslims and the People of the Book concerning the fact that Paran is Makkah. But if they say that it is not Makkah, there is nothing strange in that, because they are known for their distortions and fabrications.
He (may Allah have mercy on him) also said concerning the region around Mount Hira’ in Makkah:
That place is called Faaraan (Paran) to this day. End quote.
‘Abd al-Haqq Vidyarthi (d. 1978 CE) stated in his famous book Muhammad in World Scriptures:
In the Arabic translation of the Samaritan Pentateuch (Torah), which was published in 1851 CE, it says that Paran is located in the Hijaz, as follows:
“And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt” (Genesis 21:21).
This translation remained in circulation for a long time, but when the Muslims alerted the Christian world to this prophecy, and that it constituted testimony to the truth of this Noble Prophet, the translation was changed. End quote
4.
In the Old Testament, in Psalms 84:5-6, 10, there is mention of the valley of Baca. This passage, in the King James Version (KJV), reads as follows:
5 Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them.
6 Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools.
…
10 For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand (elsewhere).
There is no valley on earth called Baca (or Bakkah) that contains a house of worship and a spring of water (Zamzam), in which one prayer is better than a thousand prayers offered anywhere else, other than Makkah al-Mukarramah.
Baca (Bakkah) is one of the names of Makkah. This name is mentioned in the Holy Qur’an, where Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning)”
“Verily, the first House (of worship) appointed for mankind was that at Bakkah (Makkah), full of blessing, and a guidance for Al-Alameen (the mankind and jinns)”
[Aal ‘Imraan 3:96].
But the translators and commentators of the Old Testament distorted the word Baca to buka’ [weeping or crying; the Hebrew cognate denotes the same meaning], even though the meanings of place names should not be translated; rather the name should be transliterated, and even though the meaning of the (original) name has nothing to do with crying or weeping, as a result of their desire to eliminate all references to anything that is proven in the Holy Qur’an, such distortions occurred.
In conclusion, we say:
Even if nothing was mentioned in the Old Testament concerning Ibraaheem’s journey to the Hijaz, that does not indicate that this journey did not happen at all. The well known academic principle says that the fact that a thing is not mentioned does not mean that it did not happen. In other words, denying that something happened should take the form of a negative statement. The fact that no mention is made of its happening does not necessarily mean that it did not happen; rather the reason why it was not mentioned may be that it was omitted, forgotten, summarized in brief, and the like. If you find news of something in one newspaper, then you find that it is not mentioned at all in another newspaper, the fact that it is not mentioned in the latter does not mean that it did not happen. Whoever thinks in such terms is lacking in reason and is making no sense. This is also applicable in the case under discussion here.
Furthermore, if we were to quote the words of non-Muslims who have investigated the story of the Ka‘bah and who really built it, and have determined that Ibraaheem (peace be upon him) is the one who built it, this article would become far too long. But we will limit ourselves to quoting one of the most famous of contemporary history books, The Story of Civilization, by Will Durant. This book is composed of forty-two volumes in which the author discusses the history of most civilizations, including the history of the Arabian Peninsula, concerning which he says: “It (the Ka‘bah) was built the fourth time by Abraham and Ishmael, his son from Hagar.
See Qissat al-Hadaarah, 13/18 (The Story of Civilization).
And Allah knows best.
Islam Q&A
Create Comments
Nevertheless we say that Abraham’s arrival in the land of Makkah al-Mukarramah – and indeed his building of the Sacred House – are historical events that are attested to in the Torah and other ancient historical books. We cannot deny the fact that there are different interpretations of these texts of the Torah and so on, and that the context is open to different interpretations. Our aim here here is to confirm that such indications exist. However, the matter should be left to scholars to examine the story in the Old Testament, in order to reach a definitive conclusion.
These references include the following:
1.
In the book of Genesis 16:7 it says, after mentioning the story of Ibraaheem (Abraham) going in unto Haajar (Hagar) and her becoming pregnant, then Sarai’s [Sarah’s] complaint to Ibraaheem about her:
[Biblical quotations in English are taken from the King James Version (KJV); some place names have been changed, followed by the place name, in brackets, that is mentioned in the KJV. This is done in line with the point the author is making – see below]
And when Sarai [Sarah] dealt hardly [harshly] with her, she fled from her face.
7 And the angel of the Lord found her by a fountain [spring] of water in the wilderness, by the fountain [spring] in the way to the Hijaz (Shur).
8 And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai.
…
13 And she called the name of the Lord that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?
14 Wherefore the well was called Be’er lahai roi (Well of the Living One Who sees me); behold, it is between Kadesh and Bered.
See how the name of the Hijaz is mentioned, and Hajar’s departure to that place, after which the blessing of the “Well of the Living One Who sees me” is bestowed by Allah, may He be glorified and exalted; this is the Well of Zamzam.
2.
In Genesis 13:1-18 it says:
And Abram went up out of Egypt, he, and his wife, and all that he had, and Lot with him, towards the qiblah (into the south).
2 And Abram was very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold.
3 And he went on his journeys from the south even to Bethel, unto the place where his tent had been at the beginning, between Bethel and Hai;
4 Unto the place of the altar, which he had made there at the first: and there Abram called on the name of the Lord.
…
18 Then Abram removed his tent, and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which is in Hebron, and built there an altar unto the Lord.
In Genesis 20:1 it also says:
And Abraham journeyed from thence towards the land of the qiblah (the south country), and dwelled between Kadesh and Shur, and sojourned in Gerar.
We have quoted these texts [in the original Arabic of this article] from the Torah as translated into Arabic by Sa‘eed al-Fayyoomi, (d. 943 AH); the King James Version of the Bible has been used here]. He was the first one to translate the Old Testament into Arabic. He also wrote a commentary for most of its books. We have not found this Torah anywhere else except in the book of Idrees ‘Abayzah entitled Madhkal ila Diraasat at-Tawraat wa Naqdiha ma‘a Tarjumatihi al-‘Arabiyyah li Sa‘diyyaa Ka’oon al-Fayyoomi (Introduction to the Study and Critique of the Torah, accompanied by its Translation into Arabic by Sa‘diyyaa Ka’oon al-Fayyoomi).
In other well-known translations of the Torah [into Arabic], instead of the Hijaz it mentions “by a fountain [spring] of water in the wilderness, by the fountain [spring] in the way to Shur” (Genesis 16:7), and instead of the qiblah it mentions “the south” (Genesis 13:1).
[Translator’s note: some English translations say “Negev” instead of “the south’; in the Bible, this word is used for the direction “south”]
For more information please see (in Arabic): Nabi Ard al-Janoob (Prophet of the Southern Land) by Jamaal ad-Deen ash-Sharqaawi (p. 18-109)
3.
In Genesis 21:21 it says of Ismaa‘eel (peace be upon him):
21 And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.
This is how it appears in the Samaritan Torah (also known as the Samaritan Pentateuch), and in al-Fayyoomi’s translation of the Torah.
Although many passages in the Torah suggest that Paran is in Palestine, Imam al-Qarraafi said in his book al-Ajwibah al-Faakhirah (p. 165): Paran is Makkah, according to the consensus of the People of the Book. Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah said in al-Jawaab as-Saheeh liman baddala Deen al-Maseeh (5/200):
There is no difference of opinion between the Muslims and the People of the Book concerning the fact that Paran is Makkah. But if they say that it is not Makkah, there is nothing strange in that, because they are known for their distortions and fabrications.
He (may Allah have mercy on him) also said concerning the region around Mount Hira’ in Makkah:
That place is called Faaraan (Paran) to this day. End quote.
‘Abd al-Haqq Vidyarthi (d. 1978 CE) stated in his famous book Muhammad in World Scriptures:
In the Arabic translation of the Samaritan Pentateuch (Torah), which was published in 1851 CE, it says that Paran is located in the Hijaz, as follows:
“And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt” (Genesis 21:21).
This translation remained in circulation for a long time, but when the Muslims alerted the Christian world to this prophecy, and that it constituted testimony to the truth of this Noble Prophet, the translation was changed. End quote
4.
In the Old Testament, in Psalms 84:5-6, 10, there is mention of the valley of Baca. This passage, in the King James Version (KJV), reads as follows:
5 Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them.
6 Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools.
…
10 For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand (elsewhere).
There is no valley on earth called Baca (or Bakkah) that contains a house of worship and a spring of water (Zamzam), in which one prayer is better than a thousand prayers offered anywhere else, other than Makkah al-Mukarramah.
Baca (Bakkah) is one of the names of Makkah. This name is mentioned in the Holy Qur’an, where Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning)”
“Verily, the first House (of worship) appointed for mankind was that at Bakkah (Makkah), full of blessing, and a guidance for Al-Alameen (the mankind and jinns)”
[Aal ‘Imraan 3:96].
But the translators and commentators of the Old Testament distorted the word Baca to buka’ [weeping or crying; the Hebrew cognate denotes the same meaning], even though the meanings of place names should not be translated; rather the name should be transliterated, and even though the meaning of the (original) name has nothing to do with crying or weeping, as a result of their desire to eliminate all references to anything that is proven in the Holy Qur’an, such distortions occurred.
In conclusion, we say:
Even if nothing was mentioned in the Old Testament concerning Ibraaheem’s journey to the Hijaz, that does not indicate that this journey did not happen at all. The well known academic principle says that the fact that a thing is not mentioned does not mean that it did not happen. In other words, denying that something happened should take the form of a negative statement. The fact that no mention is made of its happening does not necessarily mean that it did not happen; rather the reason why it was not mentioned may be that it was omitted, forgotten, summarized in brief, and the like. If you find news of something in one newspaper, then you find that it is not mentioned at all in another newspaper, the fact that it is not mentioned in the latter does not mean that it did not happen. Whoever thinks in such terms is lacking in reason and is making no sense. This is also applicable in the case under discussion here.
Furthermore, if we were to quote the words of non-Muslims who have investigated the story of the Ka‘bah and who really built it, and have determined that Ibraaheem (peace be upon him) is the one who built it, this article would become far too long. But we will limit ourselves to quoting one of the most famous of contemporary history books, The Story of Civilization, by Will Durant. This book is composed of forty-two volumes in which the author discusses the history of most civilizations, including the history of the Arabian Peninsula, concerning which he says: “It (the Ka‘bah) was built the fourth time by Abraham and Ishmael, his son from Hagar.
See Qissat al-Hadaarah, 13/18 (The Story of Civilization).
And Allah knows best.
Islam Q&A
Create Comments
that's a hoax, Muslims would have the world believe that. the building they parade around in mecca is the building Mahammad the profit of Islam, found his god which is a idol. the building was a housing for idols of passing through caravans of tradesmen in those days. mecca was a major crossroad and the building housed many gods and idols to accommodate them.
they sell that crap because in Abraham's day his father was an idol maker. and there are two prevailing stories about the building those idols were stored in which is not included in Genesis that tell of what transpired in those days of Abraham then Abram before God came to Abram and told him to pack his stuff and go to the land now Israel. so they try to get the world to believe this building n mecca is the same.
Muslims want the ignorant to believe their god is the God of Abraham. i don't know why but it is a fact, during the aftermath of 9/11 they had American politicians telling the public that the Muslim god is the same God of Abraham or God of Jesus Christ.
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It's not you who decide if islam is idol or force your lies. by saying that you also included judaism and christanity which is an extend to judaism not matter who like or not. because both judaism and christianity always deny each other. what make christians out of Abrahamic teaches when you drink alcohol, pork, or adultery etc etc, which nowadays many people do. islam has no difference all religions of god are the same. who separate them is human brain the rejection of what you don't want believe.
any accuse in islam you'll find the same issue in both torah and torah. relax it is not idol. god is not JESUS. wake up ok.
Prove it is idol religion.
any accuse in islam you'll find the same issue in both torah and torah. relax it is not idol. god is not JESUS. wake up ok.
Prove it is idol religion.