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Karl Marx, Yesterday and Today

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
In regards to today, there are a many Neo-Marxists, sometimes referred to as the "New Left", that embrace many of Marx's teachings, but not all. Many believe in non-violence and prefer a society that is more compassionate and more equally balanced. The ideal is not "big government" but having most power in the hands of local governments. They tend to want to encourage a greater emphasis on cottage (local) industries economically. Some, like myself, prefer the Gandhian approach economically, politically, and socially. Competition is very acceptable but not to the point of allowing large-scale domination. Totalitarianism and authoritarianism are rejected.

Unfortunately, I think it's an ideal that cannot be, except maybe on a small scale. Bhutan operates pretty much on this kind of approach, but not entirely.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
A thought-provoking analysis. I never considered myself a Marxist, although some of his observations were correct.

From the article:

Voting is no longer the test of inclusion. What is happening in the rich democracies may be not so much a war between the haves and the have-nots as a war between the socially advantaged and the left-out. No one who lives in poverty would not trade that life for a better one, but what most people probably want is the life they have. They fear losing that more than they wish for a different life, although they probably also want their children to be able to lead a different life if they choose.

Of the features of modern society that exacerbate that fear and threaten that hope, the distribution of wealth may not be the most important. Money matters to people, but status matters more, and precisely because status is something you cannot buy. Status is related to identity as much as it is to income. It is also, unfortunately, a zero-sum game. The struggles over status are socially divisive, and they can resemble class warfare.

This point chimed with me. The issue today is not that the poor are necessarily "starving to death" or living out in the cold. Some are, but the poor and working class in our society generally have some sort of shelter, food, and some measure of modern conveniences (electricity, TV, radio, phones). Public education is available to all, and most people know how to read and write, if only at a rudimentary level.

In Marx's time, they had children working in factories, where beatings and other cruelties were the order of the day. Many of the worst abuses of the era have since been outlawed and roundly condemned by the West.

But there is some truth to the idea that social inclusion and status are also important in our society, possibly even more so than mere basic sustenance. With mass media and communications technologies, people become more keenly aware of how much they're actually missing. It's not a question of "having" or "not having" stuff, but more a matter of being accepted and included in society as a true "equal."

Ryan, in his book on Marx, makes an observation that Marx himself might have made. “The modern republic,” he says, “attempts to impose political equality on an economic inequality it has no way of alleviating.” This is a relatively recent problem, because the rise of modern capitalism coincided with the rise of modern democracies, making wealth inequality inconsistent with political equality. But the unequal distribution of social resources is not new. One of the most striking points Piketty makes is that, as he puts it, “in all known societies in all times, the least wealthy half of the population has owned virtually nothing,” and the top ten per cent has owned “most of what there is to own.”

So, the disparities between the rich and poor are nothing new, although our political ideals of democracy, liberty, and civil rights are relatively new. The article noted elsewhere that back in previous eras, the social and political order in society was mainly religiously-derived, dominated by the belief that people are born into whatever status they are in society. The disparities and inequities were chalked up to "God's will" and left at that.

But with the rise of modern democracies and ideals of political equality becoming the norm, it is presumed that there are no longer any artificial barriers to wealth and power. Many of the notions of "individualism" also came about during this time, with the implication that each individual is responsible for his/her own destiny. A common argument used these days is that it's the poor's own fault that they are poor, since we supposedly live in a land of limitless opportunities and roads to success. The view suggests that it's up to each individual to better oneself and take advantage of this limitless opportunity, and if they don't, it's their own fault.

I think this line from the movie Goodfellas sums up the attitude of modern society and its notions of "equality" (edited for swearing): "For us to live any other way was nuts. Uh, to us, those goody-good people who worked [lousy] jobs for bum paychecks and took the subway to work every day, and worried about their bills, were dead. I mean, they were suckers. They had no [testicles]. If we wanted something, we just took it. If anyone complained twice they got hit so bad, believe me, they never complained again."

And if the cops, judges, and politicians are all on the take, then this is the society we have.

This is probably not true of tribal societies, and it does not seem to have been true of the earliest known democratic state, Periclean Athens (at least, for the citizens). But inequality has been with us for a long time. Industrial capitalism didn’t reverse it in the nineteenth century, and finance capitalism is not reversing it in the twenty-first. The only thing that can reverse it is political action aimed at changing systems that seem to many people to be simply the way things have to be. We invented our social arrangements; we can alter them when they are working against us. There are no gods out there to strike us dead if we do.

The conclusion here makes sense, in that political action can override and change systems that some people assume to be "sacrosanct." We have to take the view that nothing is sacrosanct, that we humans control our own destiny, and no outside, supernatural force is going to stop us (or help us, for that matter). If capitalists like Henry Hill believe they can just take whatever they want, then there can't be anything wrong with taking it back from them.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
In regards to today, there are a many Neo-Marxists, sometimes referred to as the "New Left", that embrace many of Marx's teachings, but not all. Many believe in non-violence and prefer a society that is more compassionate and more equally balanced. The ideal is not "big government" but having most power in the hands of local governments. They tend to want to encourage a greater emphasis on cottage (local) industries economically. Some, like myself, prefer the Gandhian approach economically, politically, and socially. Competition is very acceptable but not to the point of allowing large-scale domination. Totalitarianism and authoritarianism are rejected.

Unfortunately, I think it's an ideal that cannot be, except maybe on a small scale. Bhutan operates pretty much on this kind of approach, but not entirely.

This would seem an ideal approach, although I agree that it's politically unworkable. It might be something analogous to tribal governments or systems where the village elders might be the only "government." But there's always been those who want to build something bigger. The Romans did that.

Competition is a double-edged sword. Some people think of competition like "Macy's and Gimbel's," as if it's completely fair and above-board contest to see who is better. But I think of a line from the movie The Bridge on the River Kwai: "Do not speak to me of rules. This is war! This is not a game of cricket!"

War is the ultimate competition, although the dividing lines are often between nations, not businesses. This is where nationalism comes into the picture, which also grew in prominence while capitalists were making money and Marx strongly criticized them. In America, we had "Manifest Destiny," while the British boasted an empire upon which the Sun never set. The French also had an empire. And the Germans...well, they wanted an empire too (and we know how that turned out).

But they were all very capitalist and very wealthy nations, and going through major political reforms internally, so the West was becoming more liberal and democratic, yet still with a certain nationalistic-patriotic bent to it, in varying degrees.

After a time, support of capitalism become synonymous with national loyalty and patriotism, while support of communism was considered treasonous and un-American. It's this kind of mentality which poisons any real honest dialogue or debate about what would be the more workable or efficient economic system to have.

Ironically, the Soviet Union was supposed to be designed with more local control. "All power to the Soviets" was their slogan, and "soviet" is the word for "council," referring to local councils which were supposed to have had some measure of autonomy and self-determination. It didn't actually turn out that way.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
It's refreshing to hear someone bring this up before someone distorts it.
If only I had a dollar for all the times I have heard someone talk about "all power to the soviets" as if it meant "all power to the communist party of the soviet union".

How'd that work out for them?
 

proudpagan

Member
"The nineteenth-century philosopher’s ideas may help us to understand the economic and political inequality of our time."
quote-catch-a-man-a-fish-and-you-can-sell-it-to-him-teach-a-man-to-fish-and-you-ruin-a-wonderful-karl-marx-52-11-13.jpg


It should go without saying that Karl Marx was ****ing nuts. In case this isn't easily apparent by his massively wrong philosophies on economics, just read the quote above.

It should also be noted that Marx (the father of modern communism) was also notoriously bad with his personal finances. It's no wonder that he wanted the state to take care of his personal needs. He also would have been a really ****ty businessman. What's wrong with that quote above in regards to a business opportunity?

The idea that everybody is just going to quit their day job and go fishing is ****ing stupid! There were so many flaws in his economic philosophy that it doesn't surprise me that he believes this.

This leads to another point. Be careful who you pick to mentor you in certain subjects. Don't take nutrition advice from a fat person and don't take business advice from a financial derelict like capt communism here.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
The problem with Marx, like so many philosophers, is that their observations are correct (and often self-apparent), but their solutions (if they have any) generally aren't.
Another problem is that Marx' observations were correct for the 19th century. Before formulating any synthesis one needs to review his analyses and see what's still relevant and adapt to new developments.
 

Unfettered

A striving disciple of Jesus Christ
The conclusion here makes sense, in that political action can override and change systems that some people assume to be "sacrosanct." We have to take the view that nothing is sacrosanct, that we humans control our own destiny, and no outside, supernatural force is going to stop us (or help us, for that matter). If capitalists like Henry Hill believe they can just take whatever they want, then there can't be anything wrong with taking it back from them.
If nothing at all is sacrosanct, then we have no basis for law, no basis for justice, and ultimately no basis for civilization. It would be as you put it in your closing line: one man can take what he wants today, and others can take it from him the next. That is not civilization; that is nature.

Isn't our problem, then, one of an incomplete sacrosanctity? Meaning, we haven't yet made all the things sacrosanct that must be, in order for society to truly foster civilization (peace). For example, we have made sacrosanct the pursuit of happiness, but we have not made sacrosanct any foundation upon which to pursue happiness (we establish the right to live in a safe space while resource-gating the right to create that safe space).
 
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Nicholas

Bodhicitta
The sense of the sacred is enfeebled, or gone from many of us. This religious forum is hopefully empowering the sacred foundation of life.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
If nothing at all is sacrosanct, then we have no basis for law, no basis for justice, and ultimately no basis for civilization.

Actually, we do have a basis: Practical necessity and mutual self-interest of all members in society. But that does not mean we have to consider it "sacrosanct," especially if practical considerations and common sense dictate otherwise. The belief that something is sacrosanct (or likewise, "traditional") can oftentimes stand in the way of human progress.


It would be as you put it in your closing line: one man can take what he wants today, and others can take it from him the next. That is not civilization; that is nature.

Some people call it "capitalism," but that illustrates the reason why capitalism is ultimately a self-destructive ideology. It has to be tempered by law, regulations, and social programs of the kind implemented in liberal democracies. The main drawback has been that, in order to pay for and provide the resources to keep the lower classes reasonably fed, while keeping the fat cats happy at the same time, it has required the liberal democracies to prey upon other nations and races - which has been common practice in the West for the past several centuries. That's what we call "civilization," although the "nature" is still there behind the facades we build around ourselves. One of the recurring side effects and consequences of it all, especially over the past couple of centuries, has the been unfortunate and often tragic presence of nationalism and racism.


Isn't our problem, then, one of an incomplete sacrosanctity? Meaning, we haven't yet made all the things sacrosanct that must be, in order for society to truly foster civilization (peace). For example, we have made sacrosanct the pursuit of happiness, but we have not made sacrosanct any foundation upon which to pursue happiness (we establish the right to live in a safe space while resource-gating the right to create that safe space).

The problem is that the real world is not really a parlor game or some friendly game of Monopoly where everyone agrees to play fairly by the same set of rules. If everyone agreed to be honorable, decent, just, and fair, then we probably would have a society without any real need for government at all - except mainly to have people take turns to be a sort of executive officer for the week.

In a world where greed, power, and position prevail and a sense of cutthroat competition overrides all other considerations, then it will only escalate to higher levels of competition, which is where nationalism comes into the picture. Nationalism flourished in the 19th century coinciding with the rise of industrial capitalism, along with liberalism, which was at first allied with nationalism, but started to branch off into its present form as malignant nationalism started to rise.

The underlying thread to all this is that people don't really like to lose the competition, and when a few Western countries found themselves in control of most of the world's resources, those that lost out on the scramble or were otherwise backward and left behind started to get a bit cranky. Germany is one such example in the early part of the 20th century, which culminated in that country becoming one of the worst and most atrocious examples of malignant nationalism to date. In the aftermath, the liberal democracies condemned nationalism, but it also seemingly triggered a sense of conscience regarding their own countries and the policies they held to. It also was deemed practical in the geopolitical situation brought about by the Cold War, which was not really about nations as much as it was about ideologies. We had the "free world" and the "communist world."

After the Cold War ended, there were those who thought it could be "world without borders," implying a global economy where all the nations of the world would fairly and peacefully compete in one big friendly game of Monopoly. But in the years between then and now, there appears to be somewhat of a resurgence of nationalism in various parts of the world, including the U.S. The only thing that's sacrosanct is winning the competition. Winning is everything.
 

Unfettered

A striving disciple of Jesus Christ
Actually, we do have a basis: Practical necessity and mutual self-interest of all members in society. But that does not mean we have to consider it "sacrosanct," especially if practical considerations and common sense dictate otherwise.
That seems self-contradictory to me. Mutual self-interest cannot be co-foundational with practical necessity; necessity will never stop howling to be favored, and without discipline, mutual self-interest will soon see some being excluded who were initially part of the "mutual" crowd.
The belief that something is sacrosanct (or likewise, "traditional") can oftentimes stand in the way of human progress.
Agreed. We must take great care in assigning such status to anything.
Some people call it "capitalism," but that illustrates the reason why capitalism is ultimately a self-destructive ideology. It has to be tempered by law, regulations, and social programs of the kind implemented in liberal democracies. The main drawback has been that, in order to pay for and provide the resources to keep the lower classes reasonably fed, while keeping the fat cats happy at the same time, it has required the liberal democracies to prey upon other nations and races - which has been common practice in the West for the past several centuries. That's what we call "civilization," although the "nature" is still there behind the facades we build around ourselves. One of the recurring side effects and consequences of it all, especially over the past couple of centuries, has the been unfortunate and often tragic presence of nationalism and racism.

The problem is that the real world is not really a parlor game or some friendly game of Monopoly where everyone agrees to play fairly by the same set of rules. If everyone agreed to be honorable, decent, just, and fair, then we probably would have a society without any real need for government at all - except mainly to have people take turns to be a sort of executive officer for the week.

In a world where greed, power, and position prevail and a sense of cutthroat competition overrides all other considerations, then it will only escalate to higher levels of competition, which is where nationalism comes into the picture. Nationalism flourished in the 19th century coinciding with the rise of industrial capitalism, along with liberalism, which was at first allied with nationalism, but started to branch off into its present form as malignant nationalism started to rise.

The underlying thread to all this is that people don't really like to lose the competition, and when a few Western countries found themselves in control of most of the world's resources, those that lost out on the scramble or were otherwise backward and left behind started to get a bit cranky. Germany is one such example in the early part of the 20th century, which culminated in that country becoming one of the worst and most atrocious examples of malignant nationalism to date. In the aftermath, the liberal democracies condemned nationalism, but it also seemingly triggered a sense of conscience regarding their own countries and the policies they held to. It also was deemed practical in the geopolitical situation brought about by the Cold War, which was not really about nations as much as it was about ideologies. We had the "free world" and the "communist world."

After the Cold War ended, there were those who thought it could be "world without borders," implying a global economy where all the nations of the world would fairly and peacefully compete in one big friendly game of Monopoly. But in the years between then and now, there appears to be somewhat of a resurgence of nationalism in various parts of the world, including the U.S. The only thing that's sacrosanct is winning the competition. Winning is everything.
It's difficult to respond to all that. So many assumptions. Overlapping system failures, which appear to lead to mischaracterizations and/or faulty conclusions.

I guess I'd offer that, where US society is concerned, we've not yet completely removed the inequities that came with our founding. One in particular stands out—inequitable access to land. If we could address this lingering crack in our foundation of rights, we'd likely find little fault with capitalism.
 

Unfettered

A striving disciple of Jesus Christ
The sense of the sacred is enfeebled, or gone from many of us. This religious forum is hopefully empowering the sacred foundation of life.
I feel for anyone who is lost in hopelessness. Trouble abounds, yes, but I do not feel hopeless. No one needs to feel hopeless. That's all I can say, though, without crossing over into proselytizing.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
That seems self-contradictory to me. Mutual self-interest cannot be co-foundational with practical necessity; necessity will never stop howling to be favored, and without discipline, mutual self-interest will soon see some being excluded who were initially part of the "mutual" crowd.

What do you mean by "howling"? In any case, the concept of the social contract would imply cooperation and practical benefit for members of a given society. I don't see how it would be contradictory, unless we're applying different standards to different subsets of individuals within a society (or in the world at large) - which can be viewed as contradictory, hypocritical, and problematic.

Agreed. We must take great care in assigning such status to anything.


It's difficult to respond to all that. So many assumptions. Overlapping system failures, which appear to lead to mischaracterizations and/or faulty conclusions.

I'm merely basing it on historical facts combined with concepts I consider to be self-evident. There are commonalities one can find throughout history. The World Wars, the Cold War, and the current conflicts of the world didn't "just happen," as so many people apparently believe. There's a profound lack of understanding regarding cause and effect among much of the body politic, which is how people can be so easily manipulated and tricked into supporting malignant governments and policies. It's why it's so painfully obvious that people can't or won't learn from history.

I guess I'd offer that, where US society is concerned, we've not yet completely removed the inequities that came with our founding. One in particular stands out—inequitable access to land. If we could address this lingering crack in our foundation of rights, we'd likely find little fault with capitalism.

On paper, it can be said that we could find little fault with almost any system. The problem is that governments and other powerful entities oftentimes fail to abide by their own stated principles. That undermines the integrity of the social contract and creates unnecessary dissension and conflict. When too many people take an attitude of "rules for thee but not for me," then people will tend to get riled up over time.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
That seems self-contradictory to me. Mutual self-interest cannot be co-foundational with practical necessity; necessity will never stop howling to be favored, and without discipline, mutual self-interest will soon see some being excluded who were initially part of the "mutual" crowd.
Agreed. We must take great care in assigning such status to anything.
It's difficult to respond to all that. So many assumptions. Overlapping system failures, which appear to lead to mischaracterizations and/or faulty conclusions.

I guess I'd offer that, where US society is concerned, we've not yet completely removed the inequities that came with our founding. One in particular stands out—inequitable access to land. If we could address this lingering crack in our foundation of rights, we'd likely find little fault with capitalism.
Adcess to land? Like little farms?
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Marx was a sluggard.

Marx Was a *******
'A man earns respect by virtue of how he has conducted his life, by his concern for his family and friends, and by what he has contributed to others, not just in material terms, but in terms of kindness, goodness, and decency. On all of these counts, Marx was unworthy.'

Perhaps a minor point, but I'm sure there are plenty who would dismiss the personal lives of so many but who brought a greater contribution to humankind - if such did occur with Marx. We could point to plenty who did so - that is, produce much of value but who led dubious lives. And shouldn't this site be labelled - American Right-wing Thinker?
 
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