karma and moral justice

[Charzhino]

This is something Ive always wondered and someone asked me a few days ago.

If someone say has AIDS, it is likely that they are being punished for some actions they commited in their past lives. If we are to say that karma is a act of justice in rewarding good and punishing bad, then if we try and help cure the person with AIDS (if it was possiblke), then we would be going against the justice that karma is trying to correct. Therefore, do we have a moral obligation to help or not help the indivudual and why?

 

[xkatz]

It depends on how they got AIDs. If it was from unprotected intercourse, then in some circumstances you could say it is Karma for having to much lust/attachment. If from birth (ie passed down from mother), then I would say it is not most likely Karma. Hope that makes sense.

As to the other part of the question, I think it is people's moral obligation to help other, regardless of their Karma.

 

[Riverwolf]

This is something Ive always wondered and someone asked me a few days ago.

If someone say has AIDS, it is likely that they are being punished for some actions they commited in their past lives. If we are to say that karma is a act of justice in rewarding good and punishing bad, then if we try and help cure the person with AIDS (if it was possiblke), then we would be going against the justice that karma is trying to correct. Therefore, do we have a moral obligation to help or not help the indivudual and why?

Well, if someone has the HIV virus, it's likely because of karma from this life, not another. If it's hereditary, then it is probably from karma in a previous life.

Regardless, Dharma requires us to help those in need. Contrary to popular misconception, karma is NOT a system of divine justice; it's a complex manifestation of cause and effect.

 

[kaisersose]

This is something Ive always wondered and someone asked me a few days ago.

If someone say has AIDS, it is likely that they are being punished for some actions they commited in their past lives. If we are to say that karma is a act of justice in rewarding good and punishing bad, then if we try and help cure the person with AIDS (if it was possiblke), then we would be going against the justice that karma is trying to correct. Therefore, do we have a moral obligation to help or not help the indivudual and why?

Karma was an attempt to explain some of the mysteries of life. Why is one person born into an affluent family and has a relatively painless life where another is born into a starving family or is born blind or with polio? Simple cause and effect within one life is inadequate to explain birth related differences. Therefore, they went to the next level of trying to span Karma across lives.

No religion has succeeded to providing answers to these questions - beyond those that are at a very superficial level. Dawood Ibrahim, a notorious Indian mafia Don responsible for several deaths, reportedly lives in Karachi, is still very active in the field, and is very wealthy. He has been on the wanted list for decades now. Though the number of sins he has commited are clearly very high, it looks like the system of Karma is not yet ready to start handing out some of the effects due to him (wonder what it is waiting for?). On the other hand, thousands of children starve in the world for sins commited in some past life that they do not remember. What is the purpose of punishing somone for a crime that he/she no longer remembers? There are several criminals who became criminals because of the hardships and abuse they faced when they were kids. So the system of Karma would appear to pull these people down and down.

The short answer to your question is, the system of Karma has not been adequately detailed to provide you with an answer. Depending on who you ask, you will get that individual's interpretation of Karma.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Charzhino,

if we try and help cure the person with AIDS (if it was possiblke), then we would be going against the justice that karma is trying to correct.

Very good question. Frubals!

The whole question of karma arises till the MIND functions and only when the mind is still or free of thoughts that one transcends all past karma that very moment and becomes free. But here the questioner's mind is still active to enquire and if after this the questioner does act then too he is not doing his karma as his mind will be guilty of having not acted and thereby suffers.
So, the MIND should be the focus and not the karma which is a function of the mind.

Love & rgds

 

[Riverwolf]

Karma was an attempt to explain some of the mysteries of life. Why is one person born into an affluent family and has a relatively painless life where another is born into a starving family or is born blind or with polio? Simple cause and effect within one life is inadequate to explain birth related differences. Therefore, they went to the next level of trying to span Karma across lives.

No religion has succeeded to providing answers to these questions - beyond those that are at a very superficial level. Dawood Ibrahim, a notorious Indian mafia Don responsible for several deaths, reportedly lives in Karachi, is still very active in the field, and is very wealthy. He has been on the wanted list for decades now. Though the number of sins he has commited are clearly very high, it looks like the system of Karma is not yet ready to start handing out some of the effects due to him (wonder what it is waiting for?).

Uh, who did you talk to who said Karma was a person?

On the other hand, thousands of children starve in the world for sins commited in some past life that they do not remember.

"Punishment?" Are you sure you're talking about karma?

What is the purpose of punishing somone for a crime that he/she no longer remembers? There are several criminals who became criminals because of the hardships and abuse they faced when they were kids. So the system of Karma would appear to pull these people down and down.

Turning to crime because of extreme hardships ("extreme" being the key word) sounds like a step up to me. Then again, I read Swami Vivekananda.

The short answer to your question is, the system of Karma has not been adequately detailed to provide you with an answer. Depending on who you ask, you will get that individual's interpretation of Karma.

For example, no interpretation of karma that I've seen, save for Westernized ones (which can't be trusted), say that Karma is something that's "waiting around" to "punish" wealthy, apparently successful criminals.

As for my interpretation, karma is 100% amoral. Morality is Dharma's domain, and whether or not you subscribe to the idea of the four yugas, that's not in very high supply these days.

 

[Madhuri]

This is something Ive always wondered and someone asked me a few days ago.

If someone say has AIDS, it is likely that they are being punished for some actions they commited in their past lives. If we are to say that karma is a act of justice in rewarding good and punishing bad, then if we try and help cure the person with AIDS (if it was possiblke), then we would be going against the justice that karma is trying to correct. Therefore, do we have a moral obligation to help or not help the indivudual and why?

Karma isn't about 'good' or 'bad', reward or punishment. What goes around comes around- an excellent way to learn from our actions and become conscientious of/relate to other living beings.

If someone has aids because of karma then our helping them is also part of their karma. If they heal because of us or have their life extended, it is because of their karma. Their karma is what brought you to helping them and your karma brought you to helping them. Does that make sense?

Karma relates to everything that happens. We are bound by it because karma is action and life is a series of actions. It's the law of cause and effect.

 

[kaisersose]

As for my interpretation, karma is 100% amoral. Morality is Dharma's domain, and whether or not you subscribe to the idea of the four yugas, that's not in very high supply these days.

What then, is the goal of subjecting people to pain? Surely, the starving child that dies at the age of two, did not learn anything? Even animals...the little deer that is chased by a Lion, the deer that runs in great fear and is finally killed by the Lion grabbing its throat? What was the intent?

if Paapa/Punya are independent of Karma, and the killing of the deer was a random act according to some Hindu text, I would like to hear about it.

 

[Riverwolf]

What then, is the goal of subjecting people to pain? Surely, the starving child that dies at the age of two, did not learn anything? Even animals...the little deer that is chased by a Lion, the deer that runs in great fear and is finally killed by the Lion grabbing its throat? What was the intent?

if Paapa/Punya are independent of Karma, and the killing of the deer was a random act according to some Hindu text, I would like to hear about it.

I'd certainly like to hear about the Hindu text that says Karma is a being with a purpose, because what you're talking about has nothing to do with how Karma works. There's no goal to Karma, no messages from gods to be learned. It's simply how the world works.

What're paapa/punya, anyway? That's the first I've heard those terms.

 

[kaisersose]

I'd certainly like to hear about the Hindu text that says Karma is a being with a purpose, because what you're talking about has nothing to do with how Karma works. There's no goal to Karma, no messages from gods to be learned. It's simply how the world works.

I never said Karma is a person. I was saying Karma is a system.

So you are saying Karma does not have an answer to why a child is born into a starving family while someone else is born into a wealthy family. You are saying it is all random. Can you provide an example of Karma in action? Just curious to explore your line of thought on this subject.

Here are some clean-cut definitions of the three terms - Karma, Paapa (Sin) and Punya (merit). My understanding of Karma is in line with these definitions.

Action: Karma, Punya and Papa

 

[LuisDantas]

I never said Karma is a person. I was saying Karma is a system.

So you are saying Karma does not have an answer to why a child is born into a starving family while someone else is born into a wealthy family. You are saying it is all random. Can you provide an example of Karma in action? Just curious to explore your line of thought on this subject.

Here are some clean-cut definitions of the three terms - Karma, Paapa (Sin) and Punya (merit). My understanding of Karma is in line with these definitions.

Action: Karma, Punya and Papa

This is the Hinduism DIR so I probably should keep quiet, but I fear you are wrong on this matter.

Much like Natural Selection in Biology, Karma is neither random nor willing to reach any goals. It simply is. It does not pursue fair retribution for evil deeds; instead, it is because the consequences of bad acts are undesirable that those acts are bad.

 

[Arav]

This is something Ive always wondered and someone asked me a few days ago.

If someone say has AIDS, it is likely that they are being punished for some actions they commited in their past lives. If we are to say that karma is a act of justice in rewarding good and punishing bad, then if we try and help cure the person with AIDS (if it was possiblke), then we would be going against the justice that karma is trying to correct. Therefore, do we have a moral obligation to help or not help the indivudual and why?

Whatever happens in this life is going to happen, that is Prarabdha Karma. When you are born everthing that is going to happen in your life is already decided by God. Think of God like a person running a movie projector and he chooses what goes on the screen and you just sit an watch. Similarly, God chooses all the experiances in your life and you are just the witness. Whats going to happen is going to happen. The only way to get out of this is to eliminate that which is effected by the Karma, or the "I"/Mind.

 

[kaisersose]

This is the Hinduism DIR so I probably should keep quiet, but I fear you are wrong on this matter.

Much like Natural Selection in Biology, Karma is neither random nor willing to reach any goals. It simply is. It does not pursue fair retribution for evil deeds; instead, it is because the consequences of bad acts are undesirable that those acts are bad.

I am not disagreeing with that. But how is this different from moral justice? It is the same to me.

Riverwolf ( as I understand) is saying Karma ands moral justice are two different things. I may have understood him wrong, of course.

 

[LuisDantas]

I am not disagreeing with that. But how is this different from moral justice? It is the same to me.

Justice implies a judgement of some sort, doesn't it? Karma has none.

 

[kaisersose]

Justice implies a judgement of some sort, doesn't it? Karma has none.

Doesn't Karma provide the same effect for two identical causes?

If two individuals commit the same sin, does Karma say they may experience completely different consequences? If yes, then it is random and it is possible that there may sometimes be a cause without an effect or vice-versa. This would be the same as having no system of Karma.

 

[LuisDantas]

Doesn't Karma provide the same effect for two identical causes?

As in stones consistently falling down once released? Sure.

What does that have to do with Justice, that is a far more subjective concept? I'm sorry, but I simply don't see the connection.

If two individuals commit the same sin, does Karma say they may experience completely different consequences? If yes, then it is random and it is possible that there may sometimes be a cause without an effect or vice-versa. This would be the same as having no system of Karma.

Sin is not really a Dharmic concept AFAIK, but it is probably best to let the Hindus answer this. Feel free to ask the same question in the Buddhist or Dharmic DIRs if you really want my take on the matter.

 

[kaisersose]

As in stones consistently falling down once released? Sure.

What does that have to do with Justice, that is a far more subjective concept? I'm sorry, but I simply don't see the connection.

I don't see the difference...will start a discussion in the more general Dharmic forum.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Dawood Ibrahim, a notorious Indian mafia Don responsible for several deaths, reportedly lives in Karachi, is still very active in the field, and is very wealthy. He has been on the wanted list for decades now. Though the number of sins he has commited are clearly very high, it looks like the system of Karma is not yet ready to start handing out some of the effects due to him (wonder what it is waiting for?).

I would say It has caught up with him. He is an Animal. He might have some nice things but he is a devil. (If it's true what you say about him) He will never know real love or be an complete human unless he change's. I would rather die then become like him.

 

[Riverwolf]

I never said Karma is a person. I was saying Karma is a system.

So you are saying Karma does not have an answer to why a child is born into a starving family while someone else is born into a wealthy family. You are saying it is all random.

No. I'm saying that it's complex. I'm saying that I don't understand all of its intricacies, and I'm saying that it''s a waste of time to try and figure out why a child is born into a starving family while another is born into a wealthy family.

I use the idea of karma for MY OWN life, right now. Not to figure out what I may have done in previous lives to get here, but what I've done in this life, and what to do in this life. Other peoples' karmas aren't my business.

Here are some clean-cut definitions of the three terms - Karma, Paapa (Sin) and Punya (merit). My understanding of Karma is in line with these definitions.

Action: Karma, Punya and Papa

Thanks.

 

[Riverwolf]

Doesn't Karma provide the same effect for two identical causes?

Not necessarily.

If two individuals commit the same sin, does Karma say they may experience completely different consequences? If yes, then it is random and it is possible that there may sometimes be a cause without an effect or vice-versa.

Wrong. You would be right if everyone were exactly the same, but we're born and raised with different dispositions. Via karma, that means we're all on different levels of understanding and development. Unless you're dealing with extreme cases (like murder, rape, etc.) just because something is sinful for one person doesn't mean it's sinful for another.

For example, while it's still a crime, it's not IMO a sin for a starving person to steal in order to survive. However, it is a sin for someone who's well off to steal, because he doesn't need to. Therefore, different karmic effects will come to these people for the same thing.

On the other hand, let's look at something good for another example: for many people, it's good to interact and socialize with other people. For many, this will bring about good karma. However, for those people who aren't very social, trying to socialize on the same level would bring about negative karma.

Karma is very intricate and complex.