Katzpur's Take on Racism in the LDS Church

[idea]

Idea,

And once again, if Joseph Smith was ordaining Black men to the priesthood in the 1830s, why do we have no record whatsoever of a revelation saying to stop?

not all revelations are published...

just curious, is there a revelation that states that women may not hold the priesthood? I don't know, just curious...

 

[Katzpur]

Idea,

Since you don't seem to be able to come up with any scriptures denying the priesthood to Blacks, perhaps you could explain how that practice was in keeping with the following scriptures (all, as you can see, are from God's word as revealed to latter-day prophets):

D&C 38:26 For what man among you having twelve sons, and is no respecter of them, and they serve him obediently, and he saith unto the one: Be thou clothed in robes and sit thou here; and to the other: Be thou closed in rags and sit thou there – and looketh upon his sons and saith ‘I am just’?

D&C 78:5-6 That you may be equal in the bonds of heavenly things, yea, and earthly things also, for the obtaining of heavenly things. For if ye are not equal in earthly things, ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things.

D&C 38:24-25 And let every man esteem his brother as himself, and practice virtue and holiness before me. And again I say unto you, let every man esteem his brother as himself.

D&C 51:9 And let every man deal honestly, and be alike among this people, and receive alike, that ye may be one, even as I have commanded you.

D&C 88:122 Appoint among yourselves a teaches, and let not all be spokesmen at once; but let one speak at a time and let all listen unto his sayings, that when all have spoken that all may be edified of all, and that every man may have an equal privilege.

D&C 1:20 But that every man might speak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world…

D&C 4:5And faith, hope, charity and love, with an eye single to the glory of God, qualify him for the work.

D&C 4:3 Therefore, if ye have desires to serve God ye are called to the work…

D&C 6:4 Yea, whosoever will thrust in his sickle and reap, the same is called of God.

D&C 36:4-5 And now this calling and commandment give I unto you concerning all men – That as many as shall come before my servants Sidney Rigdon and Joseph Smith, Jun., embracing this calling and commandment, shall be ordained and sent forth to preach the everlasting gospel among the nations…

D&C 63:57 And again, verily I say unto you, those who desire in their hearts, in meekness, to warn sinners to repentance, let them be ordained unto this power.

 

[Katzpur]

not all revelations are published...

Oh yeah? That comes as news to me. Can you give me a few examples of some that are not?

 

[idea]

Idea,

Since you don't seem to be able to come up with any scriptures denying the priesthood to Blacks,

and you still did not address why – with all this equality – women do not hold the priesthood. Is there any difference between women not being able to hold it, and African Americans not being able to hold it for awhile?

Excuses I have heard women say are things like this:

We hold the priesthood through our husbands/bishops etc. - all members-regardless of gender-are beneficiaries of the blessings of the priesthood through saving ordinances and priesthood blessings. At our beck and call, we can say the word, and the priesthood will be right there for us, doing exactly what we need it to do, so in essence, we hold the priesthood simply because we have access to it. – Would this type of explanation work for African Americans? Saying, well, they had access to the blessings of it, they could be blessed, baptized, etc. etc. so what is the difference?

"Men may be the heads of their families, but women are the necks that turn the heads." – would this work with African Americans? White people are the head of the church, but we are the neck and turn the head… would that be acceptable?

Or perhaps these responses:
"Why would women want the priesthood? They have enough to do already."
“Why would African Americans want the priesthood? They have enough already.”

"Women have the built-in ability to be Christlike, while men need all the help they can get."
Could that also read “African Americans have the built-in ability to be Christlike, while white men need all the help they can get.”

Some feminist historians have argued that women have always held the priesthood, by virtue of the Relief Society organization, which they claim Joseph Smith intended as a "kingdom of priestesses," with women receiving ordinations and performing temple rites.50 Further, historians hearken to nineteenth-century Mormon women being ordained as healers with power to anoint and lay on hands for healing the sick.51 (Just as an African American was ordained as a priest at the beginning of the church).

Brigham Young made this statement to women: "Respect the power of the Priesthood while it is upon your husbands. Women have not the degree of light and knowledge that their husbands have, and they have not the power over their passions."54

President Spencer W. Kimball offered one of the most comprehensive statements on gender equality within the framework of the priesthood/motherhood separation of spheres:
We had full equality as his spirit children. We have equality as recipients of God's perfected love for each of us… . Within those great assurances, however, our roles and assignments differ. These are eternal differences-with women being given many tremendous responsibilities of motherhood and sisterhood and men being given the tremendous responsibilities of fatherhood and the priesthood-but the man is not without the woman nor the woman without the man in the Lord {see 1 Corinthians 11:11)… . Remember, in the world before we came here, faithful women were given certain assignments while faithful men were foreordained to certain priesthood tasks. While we do not now remember the particulars, this does not alter the glorious reality of what we once agreed to.57
Although fathers have fatherhood and priesthood, while women only have motherhood.

President James E. Faust has provided an important reminder that "the priesthood is not gender; it is blessings from God for all at the hands of the servants he has designated…

Furthermore, although not yet perfect in practice, the Church has recently sought to place the Young Womanhood Recognition Award on equal status with the Eagle Scout Award for young men, and many congregations now hold recognition ceremonies for young women that parallel the Eagle Court of Honor. Ward buildings include the bulletin-board plaques for both Eagle Scouts and Young Women awards that offer them a more visible equal status.

women sometimes have need for working within priesthood structures to find their empowerment. For example, one mother recalled how "her daughter had a strong spiritual experience telling her to go on a full-time mission. Yet when her daughter went to talk to her Bishop about going, he told her that she needed to stay home and focus on getting married." The mother recalled, "I told [her]… 'Just because he's the Bishop and says something, does not mean that he was inspired to say that.' It's simple. I feel like I have a right to know whether that was inspiration or not." In the end, mother and daughter went to the stake president and "he encouraged her to serve."86
from Der Platz mormonischer Frauen: Wahrnehmung, Prozac, Polygamie, Priestertum, Patriarchat und Friede


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http://mormonstories.org/?p=323
Mormon Stories # 067: Women and the LDS Church Part 11 - Linda King Newell, “A Gift Given, A Gift Taken: Washing, Anointing, and Blessing the Sick Among Mormon Women”

Priesthood – A gift once given, and then taken away… I would LOVE to have the gift of healing and blessing the sick, it would come in sooo handy as a mother. Do you think there will ever be a 1978 type revelation for us?

started a new thread in LDS dir on women and the priesthood:
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...g-blessing-sick-among-mormon.html#post1575706

 

[idea]

Oh yeah? That comes as news to me. Can you give me a few examples of some that are not?

Well, my bishop claims my current calling was a revelation - now that is not published or anything, so everyone debate if it was a revelation or not. I think most revelations are not published... The last published revelation was give quite awhile back... do you think that no revelations have been given sense D&C were written? There have been many revelations sense then...

 

[Katzpur]

Well, my bishop claims my current calling was a revelation - now that is not published or anything, so everyone debate if it was a revelation or not. I think most revelations are not published... The last published revelation was give quite awhile back... do you think that no revelations have been given sense D&C were written? There have been many revelations sense then...

Obviously your Bishop's revelation concerning your calling would not be published as it is not a doctrinal issue. I'm sure that you've heard our leaders say that we can use the Standard Works as a way of knowing whether something is doctrine or not. If you haven't, I can provide you with a number of examples of where they have said this. If we cannot find something taught in the scriptures, how are we to know it is revealed from God or merely man's opinion? There is absolutely no record anywhere of any of God's prophets saying that God told them that Blacks should not hold the priesthood. There simply isn't any more to say on it.

Here's what Dallin Oaks had to say to the Associated Press about the ban:

“…It’s not the pattern of the Lord to give reasons. We can put reasons to commandments. When do so, we are on our own. Some people put reason to [the ban] and they turned out to be spectacularly wrong. There is a lesson in that…”

“I’m referring to reasons given by General Authorities and elaborated upon by others. The whole set of reasons seemed to be unnecessary risk taking…”

“Let’s [not] make the mistake that’s been made in the past, here and in other areas, trying to put reasons to revelation. The reasons turn out to be man-made to a great extent.”

By the way, could you give me an example of some of the many revelations that have been given since 1978? I'm talking about new information from God that we did not previously have.

 

[Scott C.]

Oh yeah? That comes as news to me. Can you give me a few examples of some that are not?

As I've discussed this priesthood issue with my friends in the church, I realize there are some who believe that our prophets were in error, including my best friend in the ward. However, I don't agree. My friend thinks that I think that my leaders are infallible and this is why I can't accept that they made a mistake. But, I don't think they're infallible.

There are many teachings in the church which I consider to be revealed from God, but are not specifically found in the scriptures. I don't drink coffee and tea because I believe this is a revealed interpretation of the Word of Wisdom. But I can't find coffee or tea mentioned in the scriptures. I consider it to be revealed from God that I should hold Family Home Evening, but it's not specifically in the scriptures. There are some specific details of the law of chastity (referring to how unmarried people behave with one another) that are not specifically found in the scripture, but I trust that what our prophets teach in this regard is from God. I take the Family Proclamation as Gospel truth, yet I don't know anywhere in the scriptures that specifically says that we should call on governments to promote measures to strengthen the family. I don't anywhere in the scriptures that specifically details the role of father and mother as done in the Proclamation. The church's position on abortion, when it's acceptable and when not, comes from God, yet is not specifically in the scriptures.

Adding something to the canon is not necessarily the measure of whether the teaching came from God. The Prophets and Apostles testify regularly of how they marvel at the decision making process they go through together. Each have strong opinions and express them freely. Yet, the Spirit comes into the meeting, minds change, and they become as one in their decisions. I believe this spirit of revelation acts upon this united body on a very regular basis.

The following statement was added to the Doctrine and Covenants. I therefore consider this to be scripture:

"Aware of the promises made by the prophets and presidents of the Church who have preceded us that at some time, in God’s eternal plan, all of our brethren who are worthy may receive the priesthood... He (the Lord) has heard our prayers, and by revelation has confirmed that the long-promised day has come when every faithful, worthy man in the Church may receive the holy priesthood..."

This statement makes it clear that in God's eternal plan there would be a time when this lineage could and could not hold the priesthood. The day had now arrived when they could. It doesn't make sense to me that previous prophets would be inspired to promise that at some time, in God's eternal plan, blacks would be given the priesthood, yet the same prophets would incorrectly believe that blacks should not hold the priesthood in their day. This statement clearly indicates that the restriction and the lifting of the restriction were part of God's plan. I don't think I'm misreading the language or the intent of the authors.

I'm well aware that the Prophets and Apostles have advised against speculating on why blacks were ever restricted from holding the priesthood. However, I'm not aware of any statements which clearly indicate or imply that our leaders today either suspect or know that the previous Prophets made a mistake in restricting the priesthood. If there are any such statements, I would like to read them. I am capable of changing my mind, but have no reason to do so at this point.

I know there are good church members who do not believe as I do concerning the consistent inspiration of the combined body of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve. However, my beliefs are fundamental to my faith and understanding of the church, revelation, and the role of modern day Apostles and Prophets.