Katzpur's Take on Racism in the LDS Church

[idea]

So do you believe that God withheld the priesthood from Blacks? If so, why do you believe He did, and could you tell me where the revelation is found where He said it was His will that they not hold the priesthood?

It seems it was a revelation to lift it... I do not know why there would be a revelation to lift it if it was not there in the first place? 1978 seems a long way into the hitory of it... many prophets have come and gone between JS and 1978 who gave African Americans different callings... again, I think it is the body analogy - eyes, feet, hands, - different callings for different people. Different blessings to the different 12 tribes, there are blessings, strengths/weaknesses with every family line... there is a lot to genealogy, when you get patriarchal blessings, told what blood flows in your veins, and what blessings/etc. go along with that - there are things that belong to different family trees. Different roles for different people.


How do you know something is from God? If it is unique. Every snowflake, every leaf, every tree, every person is unique – with their own unique roles and callings. There is nothing wrong with being unique, it is what makes each of us special and irreplaceable. You cannot be both unique, and the same though… eyes, feet, hands, ears – each different, each beautiful. Inifnity lies in our differences.

11 ... if it should be one body (all compound into one) it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.
(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi2:11)

to avoid everyone being of one body, all compound into one, with no variety, nothing unique - people are different. It is OK to be different.


http://en.fairmormon.org/Blacks_and_the_priesthood/Lifting_the_ban

Many witnesses described the 1978 revelation on the priesthood. Wrote the past LDS Church Historian:
As a historian I sought to learn the particulars and record them in my private diary. The following account is based on dozens of interviews with persons who talked with church officials after the revelation was announced. Although members of the Twelve and the First Presidency with whom I sought interviews felt they should not elaborate on what happened, I learned details from family members and friends to whom they had made comments. . . . Those in attendance said that as [President Kimball] began his earnest prayer, they suddenly realized that it was not Kimball's prayer, but the Lord speaking through him. A revelation was being declared. Kimball himself realized that the words were not his but the Lord's. During that prayer some of the Twelve -- at least two who have said so publicly -- were transported into a celestial atmosphere, saw a divine presence and the figures of former presidents of the church (portraits of whom were hanging on the walls around them) smiling to indicate their approval and sanction. . . . At the end of the heavenly manifestation Kimball, weeping for joy, confronted the church members, many of them also sobbing, and asked if they sustained this heavenly instruction. Embracing, all nodded vigorously and jubilantly their sanction. There had been a startling and commanding revelation from God -- an ineffable experience. Two of the apostles present described the experience as a "day of Pentecost" similar to the one in the Kirtland Temple on April 6, 1836, the day of its dedication. They saw a heavenly personage and heard heavenly music. To the temple-clothed members, the gathering, incredible and without compare, was the greatest single event of their lives. Those I talked with wept as they spoke of it. All were certain they had witnessed a revelation from God.[11]

Elder David B. Haight said of the same experience:
I would hope someday that our great-grandson Mark and others of our posterity would have similar spiritual experiences and that they would feel the spiritual power and influence of this gospel. I hope that Mark and others will have opportunities such as I had when I was in the temple when President Spencer W. Kimball received the revelation regarding the priesthood. I was the junior member of the Quorum of the Twelve. I was there. I was there with the outpouring of the Spirit in that room so strong that none of us could speak afterwards. We just left quietly to go back to the office. No one could say anything because of the powerful outpouring of the heavenly spiritual experience. But just a few hours after the announcement was made to the press, I was assigned to attend a stake conference in Detroit, Michigan. When my plane landed in Chicago, I noticed an edition of the Chicago Tribune on the newsstand. The headline in the paper said, "Mormons Give Blacks Priesthood." And the subheading said, "President Kimball Claims to Have Received a Revelation." I bought a copy of the newspaper. I stared at one word in that subheading: claims. It stood out to me just like it was in red neon. As I walked along the hallway to make my plane connection, I thought, Here I am now in Chicago walking through this busy airport, yet I was a witness to this revelation. I was there. I witnessed it. I felt that heavenly influence. I was part of it. Little did the editor of that newspaper realize the truth of that revelation when he wrote, "Claims to Have Received a Revelation." Little did he know, or the printer, or the man who put the ink on the press, or the one who delivered the newspaper -- little did any of them know that it was truly a revelation from God. Little did they know what I knew because I was a witness to it.[12]

 

[idea]

Katz - do you believe that different gifts are given to different people?

11 For all have not every gift given unto them; for there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God.
12 To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby.
13 To some it is given by the aHoly Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.
14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.
15 And again, to some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know the differences of administration, as it will be pleasing unto the same Lord, according as the Lord will, suiting his mercies according to the conditions of the children of men.
16 And again, it is given by the Holy Ghost to some to know the diversities of operations, whether they be of God, that the manifestations of the Spirit may be given to every man to profit withal.
17 And again, verily I say unto you, to some is given, by the Spirit of God, the word of wisdom.
18 To another is given the word of knowledge, that all may be taught to be wise and to have knowledge.
19 And again, to some it is given to have afaith to be healed;
20 And to others it is given to have faith to heal.
21 And again, to some is given the working of miracles;
22 And to others it is given to prophesy;
23 And to others the discerning of spirits.
24 And again, it is given to some to speak with tongues;
25 And to another is given the interpretation of tongues.
26 And all these gifts come from God, for the benefit of the children of God.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 46:11 - 26)

 

[Katzpur]

It seems it was a revelation to lift it... I do not know why there would be a revelation to lift it if it was not there in the first place?

But where is it? Where in any of our Standard Works is there anything that says Blacks cannot hold the priesthood?

Do you know what President David O. McKay said, some 24 years before the ban was lifted? In 1954, President David O. McKay said: “There is not now, and there never has been a doctrine in this Church that the Negroes are under a divine curse. There is no doctrine in the Church of any kind pertaining to the Negro.”

Joseph Smith personally ordained at least one Black man. Not only did this man, Elijah Abel, hold the priesthood, he served as a Seventy. Other Black men were also ordained to the priesthood in Joseph Smith's day. It was not until after Joseph's death that the priesthood was first withheld from Black men. So, if Black men did, in fact, hold the priesthood at one time in the history of the Restored Church, why did this stop under Brigham Young. Where is the revelation? Blacks didn't hold the priesthood for many years, but it was not because God said they shouldn't. It was because human beings, even prophets, don't always make decisions based on what God tells them. I honestly don't know why there was ever a ban, but there was. And in 1978, it was lifted.

Many witnesses described the 1978 revelation on the priesthood. Wrote the past LDS Church Historian:
As a historian I sought to learn the particulars and record them in my private diary. The following account is based on dozens of interviews with persons who talked with church officials after the revelation was announced. Although members of the Twelve and the First Presidency with whom I sought interviews felt they should not elaborate on what happened, I learned details from family members and friends to whom they had made comments. . . . Those in attendance said that as [President Kimball] began his earnest prayer, they suddenly realized that it was not Kimball's prayer, but the Lord speaking through him. A revelation was being declared. Kimball himself realized that the words were not his but the Lord's. During that prayer some of the Twelve -- at least two who have said so publicly -- were transported into a celestial atmosphere, saw a divine presence and the figures of former presidents of the church (portraits of whom were hanging on the walls around them) smiling to indicate their approval and sanction. . . . At the end of the heavenly manifestation Kimball, weeping for joy, confronted the church members, many of them also sobbing, and asked if they sustained this heavenly instruction. Embracing, all nodded vigorously and jubilantly their sanction. There had been a startling and commanding revelation from God -- an ineffable experience. Two of the apostles present described the experience as a "day of Pentecost" similar to the one in the Kirtland Temple on April 6, 1836, the day of its dedication. They saw a heavenly personage and heard heavenly music. To the temple-clothed members, the gathering, incredible and without compare, was the greatest single event of their lives. Those I talked with wept as they spoke of it. All were certain they had witnessed a revelation from God.[11]

Elder David B. Haight said of the same experience:
I would hope someday that our great-grandson Mark and others of our posterity would have similar spiritual experiences and that they would feel the spiritual power and influence of this gospel. I hope that Mark and others will have opportunities such as I had when I was in the temple when President Spencer W. Kimball received the revelation regarding the priesthood. I was the junior member of the Quorum of the Twelve. I was there. I was there with the outpouring of the Spirit in that room so strong that none of us could speak afterwards. We just left quietly to go back to the office. No one could say anything because of the powerful outpouring of the heavenly spiritual experience. But just a few hours after the announcement was made to the press, I was assigned to attend a stake conference in Detroit, Michigan. When my plane landed in Chicago, I noticed an edition of the Chicago Tribune on the newsstand. The headline in the paper said, "Mormons Give Blacks Priesthood." And the subheading said, "President Kimball Claims to Have Received a Revelation." I bought a copy of the newspaper. I stared at one word in that subheading: claims. It stood out to me just like it was in red neon. As I walked along the hallway to make my plane connection, I thought, Here I am now in Chicago walking through this busy airport, yet I was a witness to this revelation. I was there. I witnessed it. I felt that heavenly influence. I was part of it. Little did the editor of that newspaper realize the truth of that revelation when he wrote, "Claims to Have Received a Revelation." Little did he know, or the printer, or the man who put the ink on the press, or the one who delivered the newspaper -- little did any of them know that it was truly a revelation from God. Little did they know what I knew because I was a witness to it.[12]

Those are beautiful witnesses. Obviously, a select group of individuals was privy to the revelation itself. I can only imagine how wonderful that must have been.

I do personally remember the day the announcement was made. I was 29 years old and working in downtown Salt Lake City, just a couple of blocks away from Church headquarters. I was in my office and it was shortly before lunch. I guess someone must have had the radio on or something, but the second one person heard, the news spread like wildfire through the office. When I heard it, my first thought was, "Okay, what's the punch line." Seriously. There had been absolutely no hint whatsoever that it was coming. It was out of the blue. Well, it didn't take me long to realize that it was no joke. It had really happened. I couldn't concentrate on my work I was so happy. I left for lunch and walked across the street to the shopping mall. As I was walking, I suddenly became aware that I had this big smile on my face. I was literally grinning from ear to ear. The second I realized it, I because very self-conscious, but then I glanced around. I wasn't the only one smiling. It seemed like everybody in Salt Lake was. It was a wonderful, memorable day that I will never forget.

 

[Katzpur]

Katz - do you believe that different gifts are given to different people?

Of course I do. What on earth does this have to do with the topic?

 

[Sola'lor]

And it changed from what to what? What color skin did the people have before their skin changed and what color was it after it changed?

From some shade of brown to a darker shade of brown.

 

[Katzpur]

From some shade of brown to a darker shade of brown.

You're serious, aren't you? Well, we're all entitled to our own opinion.

 

[idea]

[/font][/color]

Originally Posted by idea
Katz - do you believe that different gifts are given to different people?

Of course I do. What on earth does this have to do with the topic?[/color]

Priesthood is one of the gifts.

 

[idea]

But where is it? Where in any of our Standard Works is there anything that says Blacks cannot hold the priesthood? [/font][/color]

Where is it in any of our standard works that says that we should not live the united order? etc. etc. Different degrees of things at different times IMO. We are not currently, nor have we ever, lived everything perfectly. For whatever reason, it seems we were denied the blessings that came from living the higher law for a time. I don't claim to understand why that is... The Jewish people were not allowed to mingle with the gentiles for awhile - why? perhaps they were not strong enough yet? Then in the NT, they were allowed to mingle... just steps in progression I guess.

There are many things in LDS history that mirror the OT – from polygamy (also practiced in the OT) to the exodus – compare exodus of OT to trip to salt Lake, the point of both? Jewish people in Egypt needed a journey to get back their heritage, to rid themselves of everything Egyptian, to rediscover their Jewish roots before entering into the promised land. Same thing with the LDS, coming out of the dark ages rather than Egypt, but you don’t just get rid of everything the dark ages has tainted people with overnight… Just as the Jewish people started off having to segregate themselves from the rest of the world, LDS church starts out as a curious separate people… not until everything is established and solid that the work can go forth to all the world...



interesting... 1978 is 144 years after 1834. 144 is a big number in the Bible. 144=12*12. 12 tribes/apostles... ask the JW's about the 144,000 etc. etc... anyways, interesting that the 1978 thing happened around 144 years after Zion's camp, and after "Latter Day Saints" was added to our official name.
"After mobs had driven members of the Church from their homes in Jackson County, Mo., Zion's Camp was organized in early May 1834, "for the restoration and redemption of Zion"
1830-1834... 3's and 4's also appear, 3 = trinity, but I think it is not really a trinity, but that there are 4 (HF, J, HS, HM)... 3*4 = 12, you see 3's and 4's coupled together a bit... perhaps that is getting into a bit of numerology though.... did you know that "Hebrew letters can function as numbers"?
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_Eight/Letters_as_Numbers/letters_as_numbers.html
so there are two ways to read the OT - one read it as words, another to see it all as a bunch of numbers... OK, it is late. Goodnight everyone!

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Actually, I think your understanding of the verses is pretty darned good.

yay!

 

[fantome profane]

Priesthood is one of the gifts.

Hello, as an outsider just reading this thread I have no desire to get into the debate, but I just want to know if I understand what you are saying here. You are saying that the priesthood is a gift bestowed by “God”. “God” decides who gets the priesthood, and until recently “God” decided not to give the priesthood to black people. Are you saying that skin colour was a factor that “God” considered when deciding who should get this particular gift?

 

[keithnurse]

I have heard that part of the reason for the lifting the ban on black priests in the LDS church was to help prevent large schismatic groups from forming in Brazil and Africa where the church was growing and they needed more priests but didn't have enough white men their with no african blood in them. There were already schismatic groups that had formed that were ordaining black men to the priesthood. It's nice in the LDS church that if you want to change a certain doctrine or teaching, all you have to do is say you received a revelation from God.

 

[Katzpur]

I have heard that part of the reason for the lifting the ban on black priests in the LDS church was to help prevent large schismatic groups from forming in Brazil and Africa where the church was growing and they needed more priests but didn't have enough white men their with no african blood in them. There were already schismatic groups that had formed that were ordaining black men to the priesthood.

You're more or less on the right track. It is true that the Church was growing in Africa, even though the Church hadn't been proselytizing there or in some other parts of the world where there was a high concentration of Blacks. (The Church had elected not to proselytize in those areas specifically because we didn't want to convert people who would not subsequently be given the opportunity to hold the priesthood. Black people in predominantly white populations were baptized if they so desired, but they understood that they could not hold the priesthood; understandably the Black membership in the Church was pretty small.) Anyway, the gospel somehow managed to reach groups of people in Africa in spite of our purposeful efforts to not seek them out. As these people heard the message of Mormonism, they were attracted to it and began to gather together to worship as "Latter-day Saints."

As I've already mentioned, while Blacks were ordained to the priesthood in the 1930s, this practice stopped after Joseph Smith's death. There was never any actual revelation instructing the Church to do so, and I am not personally comfortable trying to second-guess the motives of the prophets who succeeded Joseph. (I'll leave this task to the anti-Mormons who always seem to know all the answers and have no problem coming up with reasons for every practice within the LDS Church.) Racism during this period was prevalent throughout the United States. Huge numbers of white Americans held slaves. Most Protestant congregations were segregated and would be for years. My personal opinion is that Brigham Young and other Church leaders of that era were products of the culture in which they lived. They may very well have believed that there was a scriptural in the scriptures for the ban against Blacks holding the priesthood, but there is absolutely no way we can know for sure. As the years passed (roughly 150 years), the practice continued. The more time went by, the more important it became for the membership of the Church to be able to explain why the ban existed in the first place. Like all people, we wanted to be able to give a reason for a practice we really couldn't explain scripturally. We tried to, but mostly we must ended up guessing at it. It was not only the membership of the Church as a whole who mistakenly tried to come up with reasons for the ban. Even some of the General Authorities did so. After all, the men who had established the practices years earlier were not around to explain their reasons.

Now concerning the revelation lifting the ban... Almost without exception, any time a revelation is given to an LDS prophet, it is as a result of fervent prayer. I can't think of a single example (although I could conceivably be wrong) where a prophet has been sitting in his easy chair reading the newspaper and suddenly felt God tapping him on the shoulder and whispering to him, "Hey! I have something to tell you!"

Thirty-one years ago tomorrow, the First Presidency of the Church made what was undoubtedly the most noteworthy announcement in decades. The announcement began as follows:

"As we have witnessed the expansion of the work of the Lord over the earth, we have been grateful that people of many nations have responded to the message of the restored gospel and have joined the Church in ever-increasing numbers. This, in turn, has inspired us with a desire to extend to every worthy member of the Church all of the privileges and blessing which the gospel affords."

It went on to say that the Quorum of the Twelve had "pleaded long and earnestly in behalf of these, our faithful brethren... supplicating the Lord for divine guidance."

"He has heard our prayers, and by revelation has confiremed that the... day has come when every faithful, worthy man in the Church may receive the holy priesthood, with power to exercise its divine authority, and enjoy with his loved ones every blessings that flows therefrom, including the blessings of the temple."

Until men had the sincere desire to extend the blessings of the priesthood to all who were worthy, the Lord waited. As the Church leadership came to realize how many hundreds of thousands of people were not being afforded these blessings, they had finally began to pray in earnest to know the Lord's will. And when the Lord realized that we as a Church were ready to accept our Black brothers and sisters as our equals, He responded, telling us that He wanted us to do so.

It's nice in the LDS church that if you want to change a certain doctrine or teaching, all you have to do is say you received a revelation from God.

Actually, enormous numbers of us waited for years to see this happen, never knowing whether it would even take place during our lifetimes. But I guess it's nice for people on the outside looking in. It gives them one more thing to be critical of.

 

[Katzpur]

Hello, as an outsider just reading this thread I have no desire to get into the debate, but I just want to know if I understand what you are saying here. You are saying that the priesthood is a gift bestowed by “God”. “God” decides who gets the priesthood, and until recently “God” decided not to give the priesthood to black people. Are you saying that skin colour was a factor that “God” considered when deciding who should get this particular gift?

It certainly looks like that's what idea is saying. I hope you will read my posts on this thread for an alternative perspective. :yes:

 

[Katzpur]

Priesthood is one of the gifts.

That is incorrect! Gifts of the spirit include the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, discernment, etc. The right of a worthy man to hold the priesthood is not one of the gifts of the spirit.

 

[idea]

That is incorrect! Gifts of the spirit include the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, discernment, etc. The right of a worthy man to hold the priesthood is not one of the gifts of the spirit.

Everything we have is a gift from God IMO.

PRIESTHOOD. See also Aaronic Priesthood; Authority; Keys of the Priesthood; Melchizedek Priesthood; Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood; Ordain, Ordination; Power
The authority and power that God gives to man
(Guide to the Scriptures | P Priesthood.:Entry)

A gift given by God.

 

[Katzpur]

Everything we have is a gift from God IMO.

A gift given by God.

I never said it wasn't a gift. Our very lives are a gift. You quoted from the D&C and your quote concerned gifts of the Spirit. The priesthood is not a gift of the Spirit. Are you seriously saying that God would withhold a gift from a person because of the color of his skin?

And once again, if Joseph Smith was ordaining Black men to the priesthood in the 1830s, why do we have no record whatsoever of a revelation saying to stop?

 

[idea]

Hello, as an outsider just reading this thread I have no desire to get into the debate, but I just want to know if I understand what you are saying here. You are saying that the priesthood is a gift bestowed by “God”. “God” decides who gets the priesthood, and until recently “God” decided not to give the priesthood to black people. Are you saying that skin colour was a factor that “God” considered when deciding who should get this particular gift?

Look at the OT - the Levites were given the priesthood. certain family lines seem to have been blessed with certain things.

keep in mind the principle of compensation
Come What May, and Love It-Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Come What May, and Love It

The Principle of Compensation

The third thing we can do is understand the principle of compensation. The Lord compensates the faithful for every loss. That which is taken away from those who love the Lord will be added unto them in His own way. While it may not come at the time we desire, the faithful will know that every tear today will eventually be returned a hundredfold with tears of rejoicing and gratitude.
One of the blessings of the gospel is the knowledge that when the curtain of death signals the end of our mortal lives, life will continue on the other side of the veil. There we will be given new opportunities. Not even death can take from us the eternal blessings promised by a loving Heavenly Father.
Because Heavenly Father is merciful, a principle of compensation prevails. I have seen this in my own life. My grandson Joseph has autism. It has been heartbreaking for his mother and father to come to grips with the implications of this affliction.
They knew that Joseph would probably never be like other children. They understood what that would mean not only for Joseph but for the family as well. But what a joy he has been to us. Autistic children often have a difficult time showing emotion, but every time I’m with him, Joseph gives me a big hug. While there have been challenges, he has filled our lives with joy.
His parents have encouraged him to participate in sports. When he first started playing baseball, he was in the outfield. But I don’t think he grasped the need to run after loose balls. He thought of a much more efficient way to play the game. When a ball was hit in his direction, Joseph watched it go by and then pulled another baseball out of his pocket and threw that one to the pitcher.
Any reservations that his family may have had in raising Joseph, any sacrifices they have made have been compensated tenfold. Because of this choice spirit, his mother and father have learned much about children with disabilities. They have witnessed firsthand the generosity and compassion of family, neighbors, and friends. They have rejoiced together as Joseph has progressed. They have marveled at his goodness.

the point is different people have different gifts... different people are needed to fill different roles. Equal does not mean same. How would a body function if everyone was an eyeball? with no hands, or feet, or heart - how would the body function? I think it is the same principle.

 

[idea]

I never said it wasn't a gift. Our very lives are a gift. You quoted from the D&C and your quote concerned gifts of the Spirit. The priesthood is not a gift of the Spirit. Are you seriously saying that God would withhold a gift from a person because of the color of his skin?

Just saying different people get different gifts. I do not hold the priesthood because I am female - I get a different gift, (motherhood) and that is fine by me.

 

[Katzpur]

Idea,

And once again, if Joseph Smith was ordaining Black men to the priesthood in the 1830s, why do we have no record whatsoever of a revelation saying to stop?

 

[Alceste]

Hm - having read the passage my best guess is that Smith was having a go at explaining why an ostensibly loving, omnipotent God would allow people of any particular heritage (whether First Nations people or African Americans) to have to endure the torments of life under the thumb of colonialist slave-owners. It's not uncommon for people to believe that miserable unfortunates have brought their suffering upon themselves by their own deeds. In fact, it appears to be the default position.

I think the bit about cunning and subtlety and hunting sounds like that verse is actually about First Nations people and not African Americans, as Katz says. Europeans found the indigenous population of America difficult to read. "Subtlety" sounds like a pretty apt summary of the cultural difference, even now. Where European descendants tend to put on an ostentatious, noisy display to get a point across, First Nations people can fit a whole lot into nothing but a facial expression. (Or lack thereof).