Keep the Myths Simple Stupid

[Darkdale]

In researching mythology, I have found several scholars who seem to hold the ancient myths as symbolic for some rather advanced, even modern, spiritual truths. I don’t think this is the case. People make too much out of the myths. They were our ancestors experience of the gods and through them we can get an idea of who they thought the gods were; but to suppose the myths were symbolic of highly sophisticated spiritual lessons is simply a matter of reading too much into them. As spirituality evolves it becomes more sophisticated. It’s no different than technology, knowledge or science. People miss the beautiful simplicity of the myths and instead inject their own spiritual experiences into them. We should be writing our own myths and accounts of the gods; that is how we can help evolve our pagan and heathen religions. We should be developing our faiths, instead of living in the past as so many do and instead of interjecting our modern experience into the words of the prophets and poets of antiquity.

 

[almifkhar]

darkdale, the myths hold the facts of knowledge of god, math, physics, astronomy etc. they still hold true today, we have just forgotten the orgional messages within the myths. you see, man is lazy and as a result of this laziness, spirtuality and life in general has devolved.
take the story of the flood as an example, in the very ancient accounts of this myth, we have the ark, the man, the bird, a mountian, and the number 50. by the time this story is told in the bible for example, the number is left out of the myth.
another thing that modern man fails to realize is that ancient man knew more about god, gods, nauture, the stars, etc. than modern man. we are now starting to figure these things out. for example, a tribe in africa called the dogan have known for bare min. 1000 years that the sirus star is orbited by two other stars and even know the mass of these stars, and how long it takes sirus B and C to orbit sirus A. only sirus A can be seen by the naked eye, yet this poor tribe in africa has known this as fact for years. they have no acces to telescopes, they know this by the ancient myths. by the way science just found sirus c in the late 90's. so you see, the myths are more important than you may realize. all of the big questions of our existance lay with in these myths.

 

[Darkdale]

another thing that modern man fails to realize is that ancient man knew more about god, gods, nauture, the stars, etc. than modern man.

What evidence do you have to prove this? Or, better question, why do you believe this. I don't find this to be true at all.

 

[almifkhar]

sorry it took so long to respond to you.

we are simply relearning things that our ansesters were well versed in. the proof to this lays in every holy book in existance, the ancient temples like the giza pyramids, angkor watt just to name a few. and the biggest one being what i mentioned above about the dogan tribe. perhaps you can explain how a simple tribe living in mali africa with no telescopes and no access to one has known for bare min. 3 thousand years that two stars orbit around sirus a. and better yet how would these people know the mass and orbital rate of these three stars? our scientist have just proven that there are infact 3 sirus stars and claimed the mass and orbital rate of these stars are the same that this simple tribe has claimed for 3 thousand years. so, like i said before there are more to these so called myths than meets the eye.

 

[michel]

In researching mythology, I have found several scholars who seem to hold the ancient myths as symbolic for some rather advanced, even modern, spiritual truths. I don’t think this is the case. People make too much out of the myths. They were our ancestors experience of the gods and through them we can get an idea of who they thought the gods were; but to suppose the myths were symbolic of highly sophisticated spiritual lessons is simply a matter of reading too much into them. As spirituality evolves it becomes more sophisticated. It’s no different than technology, knowledge or science. People miss the beautiful simplicity of the myths and instead inject their own spiritual experiences into them. We should be writing our own myths and accounts of the gods; that is how we can help evolve our pagan and heathen religions. We should be developing our faiths, instead of living in the past as so many do and instead of interjecting our modern experience into the words of the prophets and poets of antiquity.

I agree, and I think mythology is 'fun' - it is, after all, our roots. I don't dwell on the past, but knowing it is, I think, fun.

 

[martha]

I would say that we have lost sight of the truth within the myths. Every culture has a myth about the origin of life. They each hold with the thought of some powerful force that governs the ways of this life.


We lost sight of these teachings for a time, but now I believe that we are truly seeking out the truth of these myths. If we were not seeking, than this forum would not exist!

 

[mr.guy]

Some authors, particularly Camus to my mind, draw alot of relevency from ancient mythology. Alot of Greek myth (whose creator god became quickly irrelevent) demonstates some pretty sophistcated insight to general human qualities and politics. Say, the relationship between Ares and Aphrodite (mirrored in norse mythology), guile of zeus (who bears much in common with Dharma), treatment of Prometheus (As best pondered by Camus), and countless stories that DO essentially bear tremendous resemblance to the world. If you were studying mythology more devoutly Darkdale, you might be more encouraged by the consistancy (be it via transmigration) of myth.

 

[DeepShadow]

What evidence do you have to prove this? Or, better question, why do you believe this. I don't find this to be true at all.

Check out the work of Jung. He gathered evidence of parallel mythology from all over the world, in regions that--at least as far as we know to this day--had no contact at the time the myths were formed. Joseph Campbell moved this further, creating his "hero cycle," a template that fits great myths from all over the world. The parallelism of these myths suggests that there really are universal loves, fears, and other cultural elements that can guide us.

As a modern example, many folklorists have taken to studying urban legends in the modern era, which shape themselves after a predictable pattern. The ability to trace different forms of an urban legend over time allows them to demonstrate the reality of Jung and Cambell's ideas.

For example, one legend that has made the rounds for decades is that of a man who got stuck in his cat door after locking his keys in the house. From its inception, folklorists were able to predict the elements that would be emphasized and added in order to keep the legend popular. The man's name was changed to something foreign (in the U.S. they said he was a German by the name of "Gunther Burpus,") and the length of time he was stuck was extended. Soon an element was added about some teenagers putting a sign by him saying that his cries for help were "performance art," so that people didn't know he really needed to be rescued. Other elements were added to reinforce this last element, which became more popular than the original story: the kids painted his rear end, passersby threw him change to show they liked the "performance," and eventually a woman called the police to arrest him because she thought the whole thing was obscene.

According to Campbell and Jung, a story that lasts through several retellings will gain features that reinforce some element from our collective unconscious. In this case, the story revolved more and more about a universal fear of being alone in the world; tragically misunderstood. The idea that a person screaming for help for hours at a time could be mistaken for anything but a person in dire need is a truly terrifying one; this story has become the dark side of the Good Samaritan story.

It's a tough concept, I know, but it has a lot of merit. Let me know if any of the above confuses you.

 

[Darkdale]

I've read all the works of both Campbell and Jung (though I suspect you are drawing your position mainly from Man and His Symbols). It's an excellent theory, but an ineffectual one. I believe that we have as much reason to believe in one spiritual system as we do another at first, so what we begin with is what we are raised with and then we choose a system that fits best with our experience. The myths have always been man's way of expressing his opinions on the nature of the gods and it is not shocking that men draw so many parallels in various cultures over various times. But I wouldn't waste too much time marveling at those parallels, nor draw some broad conclusion such as a collective unconscious.

Simply explained, this world affects us all differently, but not that differently. People of every culture and geographical location are affected differently enough that their stories reflect their surrounding, their hardships and values; but it's all just nature and it's all just life, so our stories seem to run similar courses. Of course, as I'm sure you've noticed, some worldviews are quite different than others. The Norse and Hindu worldviews differ greatly from the Middle Eastern (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) ones, and from the Greek and Roman traditions with which they mixed and evolved. African Traditions, even the ones that have somehow survived to this day, are unique and difficult to understand coming from your typically Western point of view.

I think you'll find after a few more years of study, that there is no sense, or profit, in trying to force all myth into a pretty little theory... you miss out on all the genuinely unique aspects of the original cultures and in doing so, will often miss some real cultural treasures and often, the point.

 

[Aurelian]

Well the Romans were constantly evolving their religion, mythology and beliefs. So they certainly didn't stay with what they had before in the past, but prospered with understanding those around them, like the Greeks, Syrians, and Persians. As well as advancing on their own through experience and intellect. Italian tribes went from little more than practical animists to Cosmopolitan Polytheists, and ended up with a huge diversity within the later Roman Empire. A few Monotheistic systems even pervaded Pagan Rome for a time before christianity.

I guess every culture was different though, and advanced in their own ways. The best ways they knew how, and I don't believe anyone came short of that

 

[Bennettresearch]

Hey Darkdale,

Quit yer whinin. Get down and write some new mythology. As a student of the prophets I find their literary vehicles as one of dealing with complexities of mankind and presenting answers to the morality questions that still exist to this day. A lot of myth also addresses the human condition. You know of course that Jung was dealing with subconscious archetypes. Their manifestations on modern society would be great reading.

 

[michel]

Hey Darkdale,

Quit yer whinin. Get down and write some new mythology. As a student of the prophets I find their literary vehicles as one of dealing with complexities of mankind and presenting answers to the morality questions that still exist to this day. A lot of myth also addresses the human condition. You know of course that Jung was dealing with subconscious archetypes. Their manifestations on modern society would be great reading.

bennettreasearch,

I am not sure if I have missed something, but I find your "Quit yer whinin", addressed to Darkdale rather arrogant (If it was humour, forgive me, this is one of the few dowsides of comminicating without being able to see facial expressions)..............

I would go along with your "As a student of the prophets I find their literary vehicles as one of dealing with complexities of mankind and presenting answers to the morality questions that still exist to this day. A lot of myth also addresses the human condition."

In researching mythology, I have found several scholars who seem to hold the ancient myths as symbolic for some rather advanced, even modern, spiritual truths. I don’t think this is the case. People make too much out of the myths. They were our ancestors experience of the gods and through them we can get an idea of who they thought the gods were; but to suppose the myths were symbolic of highly sophisticated spiritual lessons is simply a matter of reading too much into them. As spirituality evolves it becomes more sophisticated. It’s no different than technology, knowledge or science. People miss the beautiful simplicity of the myths and instead inject their own spiritual experiences into them. We should be writing our own myths and accounts of the gods; that is how we can help evolve our pagan and heathen religions. We should be developing our faiths, instead of living in the past as so many do and instead of interjecting our modern experience into the words of the prophets and poets of antiquity.

I tend to agree, Darkdale; too much is read into mythology.

The only question I would ask you is "Why do you think your pagan and heathe religions need to 'evolve' ?" - I have a fear that evolution would render such religions as 'less attractive'; I'd be interested in your views.

 

[Bennettresearch]

bennettreasearch,

I am not sure if I have missed something, but I find your "Quit yer whinin", addressed to Darkdale rather arrogant (If it was humour, forgive me, this is one of the few dowsides of comminicating without being able to see facial expressions)..............

Michel Michel Michel,

I really think that you are not seeing that this is a freindly post to Darkdale. Sometimes us guys talk to each other like that, there is nothing hostile. I think that Darkdale should write something to satisfy this vacuum he is talking about. It is not an easy thing to do but I think it would be cool for him to come up with something.

 

[Darkdale]

Well the Romans were constantly evolving their religion, mythology and beliefs. So they certainly didn't stay with what they had before in the past, but prospered with understanding those around them, like the Greeks, Syrians, and Persians. As well as advancing on their own through experience and intellect. Italian tribes went from little more than practical animists to Cosmopolitan Polytheists, and ended up with a huge diversity within the later Roman Empire. A few Monotheistic systems even pervaded Pagan Rome for a time before christianity.

I guess every culture was different though, and advanced in their own ways. The best ways they knew how, and I don't believe anyone came short of that

Yet, it seems that the pagan reconstruction movements, with which I am concerned, seems to be trying to replicate instead of revive. The worldview of the tradition is the constant, the soul of the religion if you will, but everything else grows with the times. I just want to see more elasticity in the reconstruction movement, allowing for some modern revelation and tradition to be included with the old. As you pointed out, the pagan traditions were always evolving, why should that be changing now? Why should we become more rigid now?


Bennettresearch,

I've tried to write good myths, but I lack the creative talent. I write dry philosophy rather well, essays and the like. But there are great modern myths (stories) with positive heathen messages in it (think King Arthur and 13th Warrior). Not the best movies ever made, but certainly good stories. Thankfully, at the heart of heathenism is an adoration of liberty and insecurity, so as society becomes more and more ordered, more and more controlled, less and less free, I think we'll see more movies with heathen messages of courage and love of freedom. If you've seen Serenity, it carries that message very well.

 

[michel]

Michel Michel Michel,

I really think that you are not seeing that this is a freindly post to Darkdale. Sometimes us guys talk to each other like that, there is nothing hostile. I think that Darkdale should write something to satisfy this vacuum he is talking about. It is not an easy thing to do but I think it would be cool for him to come up with something.

I apologise if I misunderstood; I find the lack of facial expressions on a write only contact can make words appear as if they are said in a different context to that intended....

 

[lilithu]

In researching mythology, I have found several scholars who seem to hold the ancient myths as symbolic for some rather advanced, even modern, spiritual truths. I don’t think this is the case. People make too much out of the myths. They were our ancestors experience of the gods and through them we can get an idea of who they thought the gods were; but to suppose the myths were symbolic of highly sophisticated spiritual lessons is simply a matter of reading too much into them. As spirituality evolves it becomes more sophisticated. It’s no different than technology, knowledge or science.

I see you buy into the myth of "progress." What evidence do you have of sprituality becoming more "sophisticated"? Maybe scholars aren't reading "advanced" truths into myths, maybe us moderns are just not that much further along than what our anscestors already knew.

I agree with Bennettresearch. (Sorry dude, must spread karma around before giving it to you again.) The myths that were written thousands of years ago are still meaningful to us today because, frankly, we're still struggling with the same questions. Who am I? Why am I here? What is the meaning/purpose of life? Spirituality is nothing more than a sincere attempt to answer these questions. And each person must struggle with it for him or herself. Science and technology can progress because we can enjoy the fruits of the labors of someone else. A person has no need to understand how her tv works to watch it, no need to understand how an airplane works to fly from DC to LA. But she cannot reap the fruits of someone elses spiritual labor without understanding it herself. While there may be sages and prophets and scriptures and traditions to help point the way, the truth of their teachings will not be clear to her until she experiences the truth for herelf. The only thing that changes is how we tell the story, the way we frame the myths to fit the era. But the myths themselves are eternal.

 

[Bennettresearch]

Bennettresearch,
I've tried to write good myths, but I lack the creative talent. I write dry philosophy rather well, essays and the like. But there are great modern myths (stories) with positive heathen messages in it (think King Arthur and 13th Warrior). Not the best movies ever made, but certainly good stories. Thankfully, at the heart of heathenism is an adoration of liberty and insecurity, so as society becomes more and more ordered, more and more controlled, less and less free, I think we'll see more movies with heathen messages of courage and love of freedom. If you've seen Serenity, it carries that message very well.

Hey Dark,

I know the feeling. I bombed out on a writing course because it was all about writing fiction. I was too geared into my research to invent anything other than a short story, and even that was fact based. You make a good point. One can appreciate literature better if they try and write some themselves.

 

[Bennettresearch]

I see you buy into the myth of "progress." What evidence do you have of sprituality becoming more "sophisticated"? Maybe scholars aren't reading "advanced" truths into myths, maybe us moderns are just not that much further along than what our anscestors already knew.

Don't worry Darkdale, I'll protect you. Back Lil, Back!!!:biglaugh:

While there may be sages and prophets and scriptures and traditions to help point the way, the truth of their teachings will not be clear to her until she experiences the truth for herelf. The only thing that changes is how we tell the story, the way we frame the myths to fit the era. But the myths themselves are eternal.

Hi Lil,

Very good observation. One would think that we would have progressed from these kinds of enlightenments but it doesn't seem to be the case. We seem to be eternally struggling with spirituality. Durn humans, hant they lurnt nuttin?

 

[Darkdale]

I see you buy into the myth of "progress." What evidence do you have of sprituality becoming more "sophisticated"? Maybe scholars aren't reading "advanced" truths into myths, maybe us moderns are just not that much further along than what our anscestors already knew.

Define progress.

 

[Aurelian]

Darkdale,

As a reconstructionist myself, A Recon of Religio Romana for 6 years and counting, I've seen alot of what you speak of. Trying to replicate a certain time frame instead of looking at the grand scheme of the particular culture (I'm not speaking for all Roman pagans of course, certainly not all of them do this). Right now the majority of the Religio is dedicated to reviving the State-Religion before Imperial times, but since I was more attracted to how Rome kept evolving with culture, politics, and religion, I wanted to be a Recon who kept evolving and looked at the whole picture, if that makes sense. I'm as dedicated and supportive to the Religio as any other R.P., I'm just looking more at what Rome was up to in later periods