Killing for apostacy is against Quran.

[Link]

Salam

In the 4th Chapter of Quran, we read:

What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him. 88They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper. 89Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them. 90You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority.

These verses show there was a group of hypocrites. The Quran then says if they turn back (ie. leave the religion) to kill them except for those who offer peace or their people is who an alliance is with Muslims. The Muslims at that time were at war with polytheists in general, but there was some still at peace with them.

These verses show even from people who fought Mohammad (s), if those specific people are from people fighting Mohammad (S) but themselves offer peace and say they won't fight Mohammad (s) and his followers, than not to kill them.

There is no compulsion in religion: rectitude has become distinct from error. So one who disavows fake deities and has faith in Allah has held fast to the firmest handle for which there is no breaking; and Allah is all-hearing, all-knowing. (2:256)

This verse was revealed when a companion of Mohammad (s) talked about his kids wanting to remain of their religion and not convert to Islam. This verse was revealed on that occasion.

And the meaning is clear, you shouldn't try to force religion on people and make them come to it while they are averse.

فَذَكِّرْ إِنَّمَا أَنْتَ مُذَكِّرٌ 21 لَسْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ بِمُصَيْطِرٍ

Remind, you are only one who reminds. Not are you an enforcer on them.

(Surah Ghashiya, near the end)


The question, is why do apostacy rules exist, despite this? It's part of the unjust nature scholars and their followers are towards Quran that results in this.

They prefer ahadith over Quran when their scholars emphasize on those hadiths.

 

[Link]

@Ghazaly @Shakeel come at me bros?

 

[stvdv]

The question, is why do apostacy rules exist, despite this? It's part of the unjust nature scholars and their followers are towards Quran that results in this.

They prefer ahadith over Quran when their scholars emphasize on those hadiths.

Killing for apostacy is against Quran.

Also an interesting question would be: IF your Scripture would tell you "To kill for apostacy is okay/needed", would you "agree?"

 

[Link]

Killing for apostacy is against Quran.

Also an interesting question would be: IF your Scripture would tell you "To kill for apostacy is okay/needed", would you "agree?"

I would not and left Islam for 5 years because of bad translations according to Quran that I thought Quran was flawed as a result including the fact I believe it commanded to slavery, made woman into half a witness, etc.

You can't let scripture triumph over your nature and reason. It has to accord to it. The result of people giving scripture over reason and nature, results in ability of people to corrupt scripture. In the case of Quran, the original Arabic is fine but interpretation and translations are a problem. But because people don't care if the translations or interpretations go against reason and human morality and nature, the scholars can corrupt those. There are also some problems with some of the transmissions passed to us in terms of Qariats, some are reasonable, and some are not. For example in 3:7, the verses that stop at "God" as if no one knows interpretation but him are irrational while the ones who continue with "and those firmly rooted in knowledge" are rational as God wouldn't reveal verses for not even the Prophet (s) to understand.

 

[Revoltingest]

Salam

In the 4th Chapter of Quran, we read:

What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him. 88They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper. 89Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them. 90You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority.

These verses show there was a group of hypocrites. The Quran then says if they turn back (ie. leave the religion) to kill them except for those who offer peace or their people is who an alliance is with Muslims. The Muslims at that time were at war with polytheists in general, but there was some still at peace with them.

These verses show even from people who fought Mohammad (s), if those specific people are from people fighting Mohammad (S) but themselves offer peace and say they won't fight Mohammad (s) and his followers, than not to kill them.

There is no compulsion in religion: rectitude has become distinct from error. So one who disavows fake deities and has faith in Allah has held fast to the firmest handle for which there is no breaking; and Allah is all-hearing, all-knowing. (2:256)

This verse was revealed when a companion of Mohammad (s) talked about his kids wanting to remain of their religion and not convert to Islam. This verse was revealed on that occasion.

And the meaning is clear, you shouldn't try to force religion on people and make them come to it while they are averse.

فَذَكِّرْ إِنَّمَا أَنْتَ مُذَكِّرٌ 21 لَسْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ بِمُصَيْطِرٍ

Remind, you are only one who reminds. Not are you an enforcer on them.

(Surah Ghashiya, near the end)


The question, is why do apostacy rules exist, despite this? It's part of the unjust nature scholars and their followers are towards Quran that results in this.

They prefer ahadith over Quran when their scholars emphasize on those hadiths.

I don't see an allowance for apostates / heathens who defend
themselves against attack by Muslims. Would this allow
Muslims to conquer others, & kill them for resisting?

 

[Link]

I don't see an allowance for apostates / heathens who defend
themselves against attack by Muslims. Would this allow
Muslims to conquer others, & kill them for resisting?

Muslims are not allowed to attack people who don't attack them, and if people offer peace, we are to hold on to peace. In fact at times if fighting doesn't bring any good, Muslims should not fight even if they are prosecuted, like they didn't in the first years when Meccans would oppress them and kill them and torture them, as fighting would only achieve higher oppression and chaos, Mohammad (s) told them to withhold their hands and Taqiya was allowed and all this is found in Quran. Many verses show this. "if they incline to peace, you incline (as well)" is in Quran. But this thread is specifically looking at the issue of apostacy, I will make a thread about warfare and peace in Quran though another day.

 

[Shakeel]

To start with:

Here the Muslims have been asked to catch hold of those hypocrites who belonged to the belligerent disbelievers and were actually engaged in hostile activities against the Islamic State.
The exception is only concerning the first part of the Command. Though the blood of such a hypocrite is lawful, he is not to be pursued and killed, if he has sought asylum in the territory of a non-Muslim State, which is an ally to the Islamic State. This is not because of the sanctity of the blood of the hypocrite but because of the sanctity of the treaty.
QuranX.com The most complete Quran / Hadith / Tafsir collection available!

According to what I see in the commentaries, the turning back refers to hijrah, largely (not that it should exclude other things) which is a public act of apostasy.

(So take not Awliya' from them, till they emigrate in the way of Allah. But if they turn back,) if they abandon Hijrah, as Al-`Awfi reported from Ibn `Abbas. As-Suddi said that this part of the Ayah means, "If they make their disbelief public.'' (...)

(Except those who join a group, between you and whom there is a treaty (of peace),) meaning, except those who join and take refuge with a people with whom you have a pact of peace, or people of Dhimmah, then treat them as you treat the people with whom you have peace. This is the saying of As-Suddi, Ibn Zayd and Ibn Jarir. In his Sahih, Al-Bukhari recorded the story of the treaty of Al-Hudaybiyyah, where it was mentioned that whoever liked to have peace with Quraysh and conduct a pact with them, then they were allowed. Those who liked to have peace with Muhammad and his Companions and enter a pact with them were allowed. It was reported that Ibn `Abbas said that this Ayah was later abrogated by Allah's statement,

(Then when the Sacred Months have passed, kill the idolators wherever you find them)

 

[Revoltingest]

Muslims are not allowed to attack people who don't attack them, and if people offer peace, we are to hold on to peace. In fact at times if fighting doesn't bring any good, Muslims should not fight even if they are prosecuted, like they didn't in the first years when Meccans would oppress them and kill them and torture them, as fighting would only achieve higher oppression and chaos, Mohammad (s) told them to withhold their hands and Taqiya was allowed and all this is found in Quran. Many verses show this. "if they incline to peace, you incline (as well)" is in Quran. But this thread is specifically looking at the issue of apostacy, I will make a thread about warfare and peace in Quran though another day.

Then it would seem that many Muslims don't believe in Islam.

The language of scripture (especially ancient & translated) is
so cryptic that I can only judge what Islam is by the conduct of
its adherents.

 

[Link]

Then it would seem that many Muslims don't believe in Islam.

They believe in their scholars over Quran when Quran is clear, they twist it.

 

[Revoltingest]

They believe in their scholars over Quran when Quran is clear, they twist it.

So it would seem.
Christianity endures such difficulty.

 

[Link]

To start with:

According to what I see in the commentaries, the turning back refers to hijrah, largely (not that it should exclude other things) which is a public act of apostasy.

The verses show:

(1) They can if they go a people who do not fight them
(2) Even if they go a people fighting them, if they promise to withhold their hands and not fight the Muslims, and offer peace, they are to be allowed to go and return.

The turning back is a public act of apostasy, but Quran doesn't say to kill them all, it says only to kill those who do not offer peace and won't withhold their hands from fighting, and only these did God give clear authority to the believers to kill them.

 

[Link]

The language of scripture (especially ancient & translated) is
so cryptic that I can only judge what Islam is by the conduct of
its adherents.

The problem is that two sorcerers hijacked Islam very early. You won't get the truth by it's "adherents", but rather a Satanic distorted version.

 

[sun rise]

You can't let scripture triumph over your nature and reason.

Amen, brother.

 

[Link]

Amen, brother.

It's not easy to do that <3. May God heal the hearts of humanity. Amen.

 

[sun rise]

An addition to the thread: After 9/11 I became interested in learning more about Islam, a religion I had basically ignored.

I was impressed by the fundamentals and reached these conclusions:

The Quran's list of the names of Allah emphasize mercy, compassion, forgiveness. If that is true, then the Quran itself must be based on mercy, compassion and forgiveness and there's a problem if a contradiction exists.

I also read that Muslims should submit to the will of Allah. To me this meant that Muslims should try to practice the virtues that are Allah's intrinsic nature.

So when I read translations that don't stem from mercy & forgiveness or Hadith which appear to be opposite or words & actions that don't express those virtues, I see a fundamental disconnect between the roots of Islam and what some call Islam.

From there, whether it be people changing the Quran, mistakes in Hadith transmission, bad interpretations or plain human taking things out of context, or giving history & culture undo prominence I see the problem manifesting.

This is the basis for my basic agreement with @Link

And I see the same basic problem in all the major world religions.

 

[Link]

Well spoken @sun rise , at the end, it's about the light of God which is about compassion mainly "And they enjoin on each other compassion". To me, light of God comes first, then reason, then scripture. I don't throw away light of God for sake of scripture.

If I thought all non-Muslims would go to hell and are disbelievers, I would not be able to recite Quran, it would hurt too much and I would not accept it. It would be overwhelmingly wrathful, and too much on that side. Yet to me, if oppressors and those who hate the light and it's people and seek to oppress them can get away with their opposition and crimes and oppression, that's too far.

 

[Revoltingest]

Is there any punishment for apostasy, insulting Islam, or Insulting Muhammed?

 

[Link]

Is there any punishment for apostasy, insulting Islam, or Insulting Muhammed?

There should not be, Mohammad (s) bore patiently the accusations of him as a liar is recorded in Quran. The hadiths however often are meant to cover the light of the Quran and so teach the opposite of his forbearing patient Sunnah (way).

 

[Shakeel]

I also read that Muslims should submit to the will of Allah. To me this meant that Muslims should try to practice the virtues that are Allah's intrinsic nature.

And when the Bible says wives should submit to their husbands, do you think it means they should try to practice their husband's virtues?

 

[Link]

@sun rise This prayer that is suppose to armor us with a thousand titles of God might interest you as well: Duaa Jawshan Kabeer - Ramadan - Duas.org