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Kind vs. Species

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
What exactly are people's thoughts on the Biblical term of "kind" ie: "And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind....." and the scientific term "species."

Do they relate to the same thing? And why or why not?

Is it possible if they don't that the whole evolution/creation debate is a straw dog?
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
sandy whitelinger said:
What exactly are people's thoughts on the Biblical term of "kind" ie: "And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind....." and the scientific term "species."

Do they relate to the same thing? And why or why not?

Is it possible if they don't that the whole evolution/creation debate is a straw dog?

There is no way they do. The way we classify things is completely arbitrary, and well, the biblical account doesn't follow the scientific method or scientific terminology (neither of which had been invented). Without that, it can't mean the same thing, and I'm not exactly sure what it means in the context. It's a rather nebulous term, and species is not as nebulous by any stretch (even if there are some disputes on the matter).

And, yes, it is possible the whole thing is a "straw dog," if by that you mean, two unrelated things talking past each other (now there are other, more troubling, things besides semantics, but those things, frankly, are beyond my keen to resolve right now).
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
Jayhawker Soule said:
That is a remarkable statement!

I should qualify that. It is more strong than I intend.

We classify things in a largely arbitrary fashion. What do we use, colors, use, behavior, some combination? How do we evaluate it. It varies from culture to culture substantially, so I don't think that our classifications are instinctive or always informed by nature itself. I think, rather, there are arbitrary human elements that are given large play (it is also the reason why I feel it is futile to argue species generation in evolution with those who disbelieve; they need only reclassify the data, and *poof* the evidence is gone).
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Jayhawker Soule said:
We do nothing of the kind, and the success of language is a monument to that fact.
Wow, this is off to great start. Maybe if we could please stop letting our water out on each other and get into a realistic discussion of what was meant by "kind" and it's relationship to "species."
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
kind is from what I've learned of it so far completly subjective... bird and bat are the same "kind" for example.

Species is less subjective. But it is still being discussed as the shift from the Linnean to the Phylogenic systems are debated. Species is fundimentally based on differences in morphology, genetics and the ability to produce viable fertile offspring.

more information on species can be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species

The problem inherant with "kinds" is where the lines are drawn between them... the same kind can hold both birds and bats, but not dogs and cats. Where are the lines between "mammal" kind and "reptile" kind... "bird" kind and "dinosaur" kind. Not to mention that "kind" can be as broad or as narrow as the person using the terms wishes it to be. "cat kind" vs. "dog kind" vs. "fish kind" vs. "bird kind".

So to me species and kind are not relating to the same things at all... they are IMHO as different from each other as can be.

wa:do
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
Jayhawker Soule said:
We do nothing of the kind, and the success of language is a monument to that fact.

Given Sandy's last statement, I can't continue this here. I think I'll start up a thread on the subject in a day or two (I'm about to have to go to bed, and Sundays, after I get out of work, are rough, because I go to Church). This should make a fun debate :).
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
painted wolf said:
kind is from what I've learned of it so far completly subjective... bird and bat are the same "kind" for example.

Species is less subjective. But it is still being discussed as the shift from the Linnean to the Phylogenic systems are debated. Species is fundimentally based on differences in morphology, genetics and the ability to produce viable fertile offspring..........

So to me species and kind are not relating to the same things at all... they are IMHO as different from each other as can be.

wa:do
There is this from Genesis 1:11, "And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so."

This is the only direct reference to a "kind" being able to reproduce itself and thus being parallel to the one aspect of speciation that links to being able to reproduce itself.

Making the picture muddy is that this reference to reproducing itself is not carried to other kinds in Genesis and is only implied.

There is also the idea that dividing species by their ability to reproduce themselves is muddied by asexually reproducing species.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
There is also the idea that dividing species by their ability to reproduce themselves is muddied by asexually reproducing species.
That's not the only problem.

Take a fertile mule for example (rare but is has happened). Generally, it can reproduce with a donkey or a horse but not another mule. This would mean that mule is in the "horse/donky species" (though these are not considered a single species in fact, because theier offspring is not usally fertile) but could not with another mule (I believe there has yet to be a successful mule-mule paring.

Therefore mule=horse, mule=donkey, horse!=donkey, and Mule!=mule
A=B, A=C, B<>C, A<>A. It's logically impossible, and establishes that "species" isn't "real".
 

Pah

Uber all member
JerryL said:
That's not the only problem.

Take a fertile mule for example (rare but is has happened). Generally, it can reproduce with a donkey or a horse but not another mule. This would mean that mule is in the "horse/donky species" (though these are not considered a single species in fact, because theier offspring is not usally fertile) but could not with another mule (I believe there has yet to be a successful mule-mule paring.

Therefore mule=horse, mule=donkey, horse!=donkey, and Mule!=mule
A=B, A=C, B<>C, A<>A. It's logically impossible, and establishes that "species" isn't "real".
A mule can not reproduce with anything. It has no assigned species and no assigned genus. Source: QTpi, high school teacher of biology

Would you like to try a different example?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think you might be overthinking this, Sandy; making a mountain out of a semantic molehill, so to speak.

The biblical translators and original writers weren't trying to make any fine biological distinctions. They didn't even know what biology was, much less had any concept of the current controversy raised by this question.
 
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JerryL

Well-Known Member
Pah said:
A mule can not reproduce with anything. It has no assigned species and no assigned genus. Source: QTpi, high school teacher of biology

Would you like to try a different example?
http://freespace.virgin.net/gwyneth.wright/fertile.html
"In 1990, Lorraine wrote:




"Since 1527 approximately 60 live births of foals to mules have been reported, in Europe, the USA, South America, North Africa and China."
One of the best documented earlier cases was Old Beck, investigated by Texas A&M (USA) in the 1920s.

In the 1980s, there were cases of a fertile mule and a fertile hinny in China and mules in the USA and Brazil who produced more than one foal!

More recently we have had reports of a fertile mule in Morocco and a fertile hinny in China. And in 1994, there were reports in the press about a mule in Albania having a miscarriage. "
So, as I said in my original post: fertility in mules, though uncommon, does occur. When it does, they are often only able to interbreed with a horse o donkey, not another mule.

Please reread the question now. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mule
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Seyorni said:
I think you might be overthinking this, Sandy; making a mountain out of a semantic molehill, so to speak.

The biblical translators and original writers weren't trying to make any fine biological distinctions. They didn't even know what biology was, much less had any concept of the current controversy raised by this question.
Then again maybe not. The argument for evolution seem to base it "proof" on a few simple organisms that may have been transformed into a "new" species. That is then extrapolated to mean that over a long enough period of time man came from a simple celled organism.

This far fetched concept is then used to say that, in Genesis, God did not create every organism that exists today. Well, if it was never stated that way but that God only created "kinds" then there is no argument of comparison.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
sandy whitelinger said:
What exactly are people's thoughts on the Biblical term of "kind" ie: "And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind....." and the scientific term "species."

Do they relate to the same thing? And why or why not?
I wonder if this would be an issue for one who knows Hebrew. I can't help but think that we are comparing apples to oranges, anytime we take an ancient creation myth and compare it to anything in modern science.

Is it possible if they don't that the whole evolution/creation debate is a straw dog?
The evolution/creation debate is an abuse of both the discipline of science and theology. Science can't speak to myths, and myths can't give scientific facts, unless of course science is your myth, but that would violate the definition of myth.

Just think how silly it would be if we were talking about any other creation myth.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Seyorni said:
The biblical translators and original writers weren't trying to make any fine biological distinctions. They didn't even know what biology was, much less had any concept of the current controversy raised by this question.
-
That's a good point. However, I would not put it past some modern preachers to replace "kind" with "species" in an effort to purposefully deceive people...

In fact, I would buy you a beer (or similar pleasant drink) if I couldn't go into a Christian bookstore and locate a source in less than 15 minutes that propounds such nonsense - even less time online.

EDIT: Before even I could say Ambesol.

David Menton argues that min in Genesis can't refer to species because species is too specific for the biblical usage. Thus, in his opinion, which is wrong, it must refer to genus.

[size=+1]Web[/size] [size=-1]Results 1 - 10 of about 3,420,000 for kind in Genesis is species. (0.70 seconds) [/size]
Species, Speciation and the Genesis Kind by David Menton [size=-1]Short overview of species, speciation, and the Genesis kind.
www.gennet.org/facts/metro16.html - 13k - Cached - Similar pages[/size]
 

Endless

Active Member
It is essential to look at the big picture - if the Bible is correct (and we must work on this assumption if we are discussing what the Bible means by 'kinds' then this means that the earth is around 7000yrs old. This then means that all the fossils had to have formed since the earth was created - the Bible teaches a Biblical flood, so it is safe to assume understanding the fossilation process that this would have resulted in fossils. So the majority are probably as a result of the flood according to the Bible. We then have the ark which stored animals of every 'kind'. Logical assumption is that whatever these kinds were they must have been able to give rise to every type of creature on the earth today. There are currently too many species on the earth to have been able to physically fit in the ark (dimensions given in the Bible). Therefore according to the Bible the kinds could not possibly mean species.

Is it therefore possible to define a kind? No it is not yet possible, nor likely ever will be. The only way a 'kind' could be defined would be at the genetic level. You would have to work backwards with an examination of the genes of creatures. You would have to examine whether natural selection, genetic drift, mutation etc, could have caused diversification within the years since the ark. From those kinds of studies you should be able to be able to get a good guess which animals came from the same kind. But simply arguing about species and what makes things the same kind at the physical level is a strawman, because although you can get animals into families as such there are always going to be graylines at the physcial aspect of it all.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Endless said:
It is essential to look at the big picture - if the Bible is correct (and we must work on this assumption if we are discussing what the Bible means by 'kinds' then this means that the earth is around 7000yrs old. This then means that all the fossils had to have formed since the earth was created - the Bible teaches a Biblical flood, so it is safe to assume understanding the fossilation process that this would have resulted in fossils. So the majority are probably as a result of the flood according to the Bible. We then have the ark which stored animals of every 'kind'. Logical assumption is that whatever these kinds were they must have been able to give rise to every type of creature on the earth today. There are currently too many species on the earth to have been able to physically fit in the ark (dimensions given in the Bible). Therefore according to the Bible the kinds could not possibly mean species.

Is it therefore possible to define a kind? No it is not yet possible, nor likely ever will be. The only way a 'kind' could be defined would be at the genetic level. You would have to work backwards with an examination of the genes of creatures. You would have to examine whether natural selection, genetic drift, mutation etc, could have caused diversification within the years since the ark. From those kinds of studies you should be able to be able to get a good guess which animals came from the same kind. But simply arguing about species and what makes things the same kind at the physical level is a strawman, because although you can get animals into families as such there are always going to be graylines at the physcial aspect of it all.

For someone who accepts that the earth is 7000 years old, it is absolutely meaningless to talk about "logical assumptions." Logical analysis only applies to conclusions that come from logic.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
It is essential to look at the big picture - if the Bible is correct (and we must work on this assumption if we are discussing what the Bible means by 'kinds' then this means that the earth is around 7000yrs old.
The Biblical account is easly and internally (as well as externally) disproven. What color was Jesus's robe? How many men did Joab report to David? Where is the water above the stars? How does 1*3.14=3? Did Judas impale himself or hang himself? Why is there no evidene of a global flood? Where did the water go? Where are the storehouses of hail that God uses in time of war? Where are the corners of the Earth? Where are the pillars that the Earth stands on? How come the Bible says that the Sun moves through the sky to cause day and night (and can stop and be reversed) when it's acutally the Earth spinning? How did 20,000,000 species (acutlly 100 times that based on the apparent record) fit on a boat bigger than is possible to do with wood?

In short, a literal Bible is simple to dismiss as mythology which has little to no relationship to reality.

This then means that all the fossils had to have formed since the earth was created - the Bible teaches a Biblical flood, so it is safe to assume understanding the fossilation process that this would have resulted in fossils. So the majority are probably as a result of the flood according to the Bible.
Runs contrary both tot the stratification of the fossils themselves, and to the complete and utter lack of evidence for or a mechanism allowing a global flood.

You might as well say that faries placed fossils there, at least it's not *inconsistant* with the physical evidence.

Is it therefore possible to define a kind? No it is not yet possible, nor likely ever will be.
Whcih makes it counter-intuitive and simply dishonest to use.

The only way a 'kind' could be defined would be at the genetic level.
And the hypocracy appears. First you say "I can't define it", then you start defining it.

Why must it be defined genetically? Why couldn't it be based on what the faries preferred? Maybe they "kind" is defined by color, maybe there were only 5 kinds (red, orange, yellow, green, and blue) and after the ark the faries mixed it up... perphaps, as the faries were busy transporting land animals across oceans (oddly, only to places that the lying old-Earth geology said were once connected or close (notice the lack of indeginous, terrestrial mega-fauna in Easter Island and Hawaii)) they started divying them up (turning the brown kind into dogs and horses, while turning the yellow kind into lions and birds) and then maybe even modified the colors.

It's just as physcially evidenced as your position.

Thats as much as I can dumb it down for you. Perhaps you should get a textbook on ridometric dating and understand the physics underpinnings that control decay rates and how that effects electron fracture dating, or a basic understanding of an electro-magnetic dynamo, and how the magnetic alignment of the Atlantic ocean can be used to determine its age (as can the modern rate of expansion, as can the afore-mentioned radio-dating method). Unfortunately, you are just too uneducated in the matter to understand it it seems. Perhaps, like I have, you should grab a degree in Engineering or geology before discussing the age of the Earth.
 
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