Kissinger. Who he was.

[Stevicus]

This thread is dedicated to Kissinger.
Do tell what you feel like saying about him.

His legacy, his deeds, his policy.

This is a debate, so we can respectfully debate about this controversial figure.

As I mentioned in the other thread, Kissinger was just one person who was part of a regime and an ideological position which was (and still is) held by many Americans. Was he worse or more evil than Nixon, Dean Rusk, LBJ, McNamara, J. Edgar Hoover, Joe McCarthy, Barry Goldwater, Earl Warren, or any number of other people involved in the regime? Or what about the ideals they represented which were used to justify US military actions throughout the world - along with the people who believed in those ideals and propagated them and encouraged others to believe in them as well?

That doesn't get Kissinger off the hook, as I believe that history will look him objectively, but taking in the larger picture, the real problem is the ideology that he and millions of other Americans embraced and continue to embrace.

 

[fantome profane]

Was he worse or more evil than Nixon, Dean Rusk, LBJ, McNamara, J. Edgar Hoover, Joe McCarthy, Barry Goldwater, Earl Warren, or any number of other people involved in the regime?

Yes.


(sorry, was that question intended to be rhetorical?)

 

[Estro Felino]

Yes.


(sorry, was that question intended to be rhetorical?)

Carter was a saint in comparison.
Since he tried to dissuade Videla from continuing the genocide of the desaparecidos in Argentina.

 

[Estro Felino]

That doesn't get Kissinger off the hook, as I believe that history will look him objectively, but taking in the larger picture, the real problem is the ideology that he and millions of other Americans embraced and continue to embrace.

Honestly Americans have nothing to do with this person's decisions.
They underwent this person's decisions.
They underwent the Vietnam War. They went to die there, in Vietnam.

I believe a totally different thing: I believe Americans cannot even imagine how terrifying were the war crimes committed because of his decisions.
I don't believe in the end justifies the means.
And neither do most American.

 

[Twilight Hue]

No.

Where he is located now also counts.

Probably in Hell would be my guess.

As Twain put it,

"Heaven for climate, Hell for company ".

 

[Stevicus]

Nixon was a saint in comparison.
Since he tried to dissuade Videla from continuing the genocide of the desaparecidos in Argentina.
But Kissinger said no.

Nixon was the President. Kissinger was his subordinate.

 

[Stevicus]

Yes.


(sorry, was that question intended to be rhetorical?)

Not necessarily, but can you elaborate?

 

[Estro Felino]

Nixon was the President. Kissinger was his subordinate.

My theory was that Kissinger was the mastermind. Carter and Nixon were submitted to that mind.

Kissinger boicottò gli sforzi di Carter per bloccare i massacri di Videla

Nei documenti diffusi dal Guardian la posizione del segretario di stato americano sul regime che fece sparire 30.000 oppositori. Il suo rapporto con i generali argentini non era una novità: aveva già incoraggiato la giunta militare a schiacciare i «terroristi». Ma nel 1978 non aveva più nessun...

www.corriere.it

You haven't told me anything about Kissinger and the Operation Condor yet.

 

[Stevicus]

Honestly Americans have nothing to do with this person's decisions.
They underwent this person's decisions.
They underwent the Vietnam War. They went to die there, in Vietnam.

I believe a totally different thing: I believe Americans cannot even imagine how terrifying were the war crimes committed because of his decisions.
I don't believe in the end justifies the means.
And neither do most American.

The Vietnam War was brought about by Americans who had an obsession with communism in the decades prior. The creation of the CIA, NSA, and a whole host of other policies (both domestic and foreign) came about due to mass paranoia about the USSR and communism. Basically, the Powers That Be in America embarked on a policy to make the rich richer and the poor poorer. That's what the Cold War was all about. Kissinger was just one of a plethora of Cold Warriors and cheerleaders for anti-communism.

Americans may not have been involved with the decisions made by Kissinger, but ultimately, most agreed with the ideology he used to justify his actions. If anyone believes that America's role is/was to "make the world safe for democracy," then I can't see how they can criticize the Vietnam War or the bombing of Cambodia. If one buys into the BS of the government, then they can't complain about how it tastes.

 

[Stevicus]

My theory was that Kissinger was the mastermind. Carter and Nixon were submitted to that diabolical mind.

Kissinger boicottò gli sforzi di Carter per bloccare i massacri di Videla

Nei documenti diffusi dal Guardian la posizione del segretario di stato americano sul regime che fece sparire 30.000 oppositori. Il suo rapporto con i generali argentini non era una novità: aveva già incoraggiato la giunta militare a schiacciare i «terroristi». Ma nel 1978 non aveva più nessun...

www.corriere.it

You haven't told me anything about Kissinger and the Operation Condor yet.

Operation Condor? It was all in the name of bringing "freedom" and "democracy" to the world. Anyone who doesn't believe that must be one of them tinfoil hat wearers.

 

[Estro Felino]

.

The Vietnam War was brought about by Americans who had an obsession with communism in the decades prior. The creation of the CIA, NSA, and a whole host of other policies (both domestic and foreign) came about due to mass paranoia about the USSR and communism. Basically, the Powers That Be in America embarked on a policy to make the rich richer and the poor poorer. That's what the Cold War was all about. Kissinger was just one of a plethora of Cold Warriors and cheerleaders for anti-communism.

Americans may not have been involved with the decisions made by Kissinger, but ultimately, most agreed with the ideology he used to justify his actions. If anyone believes that America's role is/was to "make the world safe for democracy," then I can't see how they can criticize the Vietnam War or the bombing of Cambodia. If one buys into the BS of the government, then they can't complain about how it tastes.

You know, there is a beautiful song from the sixties whose lyrics were imprinted in my memory...and are:

There was a boy who, like me, loved the Beatles and the Rolling Stones,
he was a globetrotter, he came from the US of America.
he wasn't pretty but thousands of women would surround him,
whenever he sang Help, Ticket to Ride, or Lady Jane or Yesterday.
He used to sing "long live freedom", until he received a letter,
he gave his guitar to me, he had to go back to America,
And stop with Rolling Stones, stop with the Beatles, stop...
he told me he would go to Vietnam to shoot at Vietcongs.

So I believe that the Vietnam War was the most horrific war ever, because it forced many young Americans to go to die for a stupid geopolitical plan in South-East Asia

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Well, I tried. In a page or so, this won't be about Kissinger at all.

I think that was inevitable with posts #2, 3, and 5.

 

[Estro Felino]

I think that was inevitable with posts #2, 3, and 5.

But that was a premise...we are discussing Kissinger.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

But that was a premise...we are discussing Kissinger.

Along with other politicians and the nature of hell, god, and punishment. Those things increase the likelihood of thread derailment.

 

[Estro Felino]

Along with other politicians and the nature of hell, god, and punishment. Those things increase the likelihood of thread derailment.

You probably haven't read the OP, then.
I pointed out you guys can talk about Kissinger in any way. His legacy, his deeds, his actions.

 

[fantome profane]

Not necessarily, but can you elaborate?

How much time ya got? (that question is rhetorical)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/30/henry-kissinger-cambodia-bombing-war

Latin America remembers Kissinger’s ‘profound moral wretchedness’

US statesman’s encouragement of Pinochet’s coup in Chile and his backing for Argentina’s military dictatorship left lasting stain

www.theguardian.com

If you want me to recommend a few books, I can do that too.


Now, don't misunderstand me. I am not saying those other people you mentioned were angels. U.S. foreign policy has always been a mix of amoral and immoral. Completely indifferent to the impact it has on the rest of the world. That was true before Kissinger and is true today. But Kissinger was utterly ruthless.

 

[Stevicus]

How much time ya got? (that question is rhetorical)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/30/henry-kissinger-cambodia-bombing-war

Latin America remembers Kissinger’s ‘profound moral wretchedness’

US statesman’s encouragement of Pinochet’s coup in Chile and his backing for Argentina’s military dictatorship left lasting stain

www.theguardian.com

If you want me to recommend a few books, I can do that too.


Now, don't misunderstand me. I am not saying those other people you mentioned were angels. U.S. foreign policy has always been a mix of amoral and immoral. Completely indifferent to the impact it has on the rest of the world. That was true before Kissinger and is true today. But Kissinger was utterly ruthless.

I'm pretty much aware of Kissinger's track record and his and others' roles in all of these events, and the legacy it has left with us and continues on into the present day. I guess the question of "who's worse" would depend on whether one can hypothetically argue if things would have been any different if it was someone else in that position. Since the motives behind Vietnam, Cambodia, and US interventionism in Latin America (among other activities) were based on paranoia and ideological reasons, I would say the main fault was ideology and those who practiced it (and continue to practice it).

 

[Yerda]

Piece of ****

 

[Estro Felino]

I'm pretty much aware of Kissinger's track record and his and others' roles in all of these events, and the legacy it has left with us and continues on into the present day. I guess the question of "who's worse" would depend on whether one can hypothetically argue if things would have been any different if it was someone else in that position. Since the motives behind Vietnam, Cambodia, and US interventionism in Latin America (among other activities) were based on paranoia and ideological reasons, I would say the main fault was ideology and those who practiced it (and continue to practice it).

You know...Italians believe the best Prime Minister was Moro.
He was kidnapped and murdered. Four years after being threatened by a shady character in Washington DC,

https://larouchepub.com/eiw/public/1982/eirv09n31-19820817/eirv09n31-19820817_034-new_evidence_of_kissingers_role.pdf

 

[libre]

“Once you’ve been to Cambodia, you’ll never stop wanting to beat Henry Kissinger to death with your bare hands. You will never again be able to open a newspaper and read about that treacherous, prevaricating, murderous scumbag sitting down for a nice chat with Charlie Rose or attending some black-tie affair for a new glossy magazine without choking. Witness what Henry did in Cambodia – the fruits of his genius for statesmanship – and you will never understand why he’s not sitting in the dock at The Hague next to Milošević.”

— Anthony Bourdain