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Lack of Compassion in Pursuit of "Proving" Oneself Right

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
On multiple occasions on which the subject of COVID vaccines have been brought up, I have seen such comments as "I have no sympathy for people who die of COVID after choosing not to get vaccinated," "this is just natural selection" (in reference to their dying of COVID), etc., and even open gloating over people's deaths because they were anti-vaxxers.

I should start this by saying that, per the consensus of major health authorities around the world, I'm staunchly in favor of getting any vaccine one can apply for, unless one is within the significantly tiny minority of people who are demonstrably at a higher risk of harm from the COVID vaccines than they are of COVID or are unable to get vaccinated for any other reason. I would be vaccinated by now myself if it weren't for the fact that my demographic group has much less priority for vaccination rollout than multiple other ones.

With that out of the way, I find the kinds of comments I mentioned above to be extremely callous, unnecessary, and counter to the value of viewing human life as sacred and of utmost importance. My own parents are sadly among those who believe in misinformation, fearmongering, and conspiracy theories about the vaccines, and since they never had sufficient education to value scientific consensus or critical thinking, they're quite prone to believing unsubstantiated claims not just about the vaccines but also about many other topics. This is despite my persistent and ongoing attempts to better inform them about the vaccines and why they should apply for them as soon as they can.

Personally, when I come across such comments, one of the first things I think of is how hurtful and tactless I would find them to be if my parents or anyone else I cared about ever got severely ill or died from COVID. It is a reminder that even though I know that decision is harmful and misinformed, not everyone who makes it is a terrible person or someone who ever deserves to suffer severe illness or death due to their poor decision.

What's the point of such comments or the stark lack of compassion that underpins them, in any case? If the goal is to preserve human life and well-being by encouraging vaccine uptake, then such dismissal of the lives of people who don't know better about vaccines is both counterproductive to that goal and potentially alienating to those who may be willing to change their minds with evidence and logic.

If, on the other hand, the goal is purely to celebrate the suffering of said people purely because one dislikes their stance and finds it completely irrational and/or irresponsible (just as I find it, actually), then it seems to me one needs to rethink their priorities and compassion for others given such willingness to relish others' suffering or death. I feel relieved when someone I care about even in the slightest survives this illness, whether or not they're vaccinated. I only hope that they survive and go on to change their mind and get vaccinated, not that they suffer or die.

The only reason I felt the need to start this thread is that I strongly felt like some people were talking about a group that includes people I love and care about in a dehumanizing and callous way, as if said group deserved whatever terrible fate they faced because of their anti-vax stance (which, I reiterate, I agree is both irrational and irresponsible). When did concern for public health turn into celebrating each other's illness or death? Is this really a way to promote vaccine awareness or encourage respect for science? I absolutely don't think so.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I think of it in a way similar to seeing someone riding a motorcycle without a helmet. They may be lucky if they manage to not have something bad happen to them. But if they do have something bad happen to them, it is likely to be much worse because of the decisions they made. And I think there is some element of responsibility because they don't take the simple precautions to avoid the worst case scenarios that are far too common and easily predicted.

I also place a LOT of blame on those who spread the misinformation. In today's world, they are killers.

I hope your family is not among their victims.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I think of it in a way similar to seeing someone riding a motorcycle without a helmet. They may be lucky if they manage to not have something bad happen to them. But if they do have something bad happen to them, it is likely to be much worse because of the decisions they made. And I think there is some element of responsibility because they don't take the simple precautions to avoid the worst case scenarios that are far too common and easily predicted.

I also place a LOT of blame on those who spread the misinformation. In today's world, they are killers.

I hope your family is not among their victims.

I agree with all of your points. That still doesn't mean anyone should gloat over the misfortune of the motorcycle riders who end up hospitalized or in a wheelchair because of their poor decision. I would view such gloating as akin to the comments relishing the severe illness or death of anti-vaxxers.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I agree with all of your points. That still doesn't mean anyone should gloat over the misfortune of the motorcycle riders who end up hospitalized or in a wheelchair because of their poor decision. I would view such gloating as akin to the comments relishing the severe illness or death of anti-vaxxers.


And if you had a motorcyclist who bragged about not wearing a helmet, encouraged others not to wear theirs, and claimed that wearing helmets was more dangerous that not?

At some point, my compassion degrades because of attitudes like that. I don't rejoice when they get badly hurt or die, but I am not surprised and I feel they asked for what happened to some degree. I find it sickening, actually.

This is different, of course, from someone who didn't wear their helmet once and that was the day they had an accident.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
And if you had a motorcyclist who bragged about not wearing a helmet, encouraged others not to wear theirs, and claimed that wearing helmets was more dangerous that not?

That would largely depend on why they had that kind of attitude. Some people, as I have witnessed first-hand, genuinely believe misinformation so deeply that they believe they're "protecting" others by having such an attitude, in which case I think it is best to counter their misinformation and minimize their influence wherever possible. Some are selfish and have ulterior motives such as financial gain from spreading misinformation (e.g., some Chinese media that support China's current regime and intentionally twist facts to dissuade people from taking Western-made vaccines).

I don't believe there's a "one size fits all" approach in this case. I would generally focus more on spreading correct information and countering misinformation than expressing satisfaction over anyone's ill fate.

At some point, my compassion degrades because of attitudes like that. I don't rejoice when they get badly hurt or die, but I am not surprised and I feel they asked for what happened to some degree. I find it depressing, actually.

This is different, of course, from someone who didn't wear their helmet once and that was the day they had an accident.

I find it depressing as well, especially when misinformation and fearmongering lead to loss of life or severe but preventable suffering.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
And if you had a motorcyclist who bragged about not wearing a helmet, encouraged others not to wear theirs, and claimed that wearing helmets was more dangerous that not?

At some point, my compassion degrades because of attitudes like that. I don't rejoice when they get badly hurt or die, but I am not surprised and I feel they asked for what happened to some degree. I find it sickening, actually.

This is different, of course, from someone who didn't wear their helmet once and that was the day they had an accident.

People are seeing others without a helmet and telling them they didn't obey the law. People without helmets are telling people with helmets that it's their choice and their consequence. The problem is (OPwise) is gloating that people without a helmet got into a car crash and killed themselves in the process. Also, it's not a good example because provaxxers are saying not getting vaccinated will potentially kill others (they don't think of the unvaccinated person)... not wearing a helmet only hurts the person riding the motorcycle not the people around him or her. Other people can't be killed by virtue of the motorist not wearing a helmet.
 
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PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
Context is extremely important in online discussions as well. If you know the person, you can sometimes better understand why they are saying what they are. Sometimes it may sound like fuzzy thinking, then when you quote them, they have a whole range of amazing statistics to present as to why they believe what they do. In the case where you don't know the person though, it sometimes gets difficult to discern what they might have meant.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
[...] Also, it's not a good example because provaxxers are saying not getting vaccinated will potentially kill others [...]

Which is both scientifically and logically correct. Allowing the virus to mutate further and potentially contributing both to the spread of the virus and the strain of the health system by refusing to get vaccinated without a medically sound reason does indeed put oneself and others at a significantly increased health risk.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Which is both scientifically and logically correct. Allowing the virus to mutate further and potentially contributing both to the spread of the virus and the strain of the health system by refusing to get vaccinated without a medically sound reason does indeed put oneself and others at a significantly increased health risk.

It's correct when someone is asymptomatic or symptomatic. It doesn't apply to those without COVID-that's why its the potential to spread.

Potential has to do with level of risk, though. One person may have a 10% potential of being asymptomatic and another person a 50% potential. Instead of taking into consideration these factors (so far factors we look at is age and ethnicity so far I believe), we just don't know whose more at the potential of spreading than someone else.

We can load everyone up in one boat, but I do find generalizing the world population does add to the non compassion. It's assuming everyone's situation is the same and its not. Even experts know this.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
It's correct when someone is asymptomatic or symptomatic. It doesn't apply to those without COVID-that's why its the potential to spread.

Potential has to do with level of risk, though. One person may have a 10% potential of being asymptomatic and another person a 50% potential. Instead of taking into consideration these factors (so far factors we look at is age and ethnicity so far I believe), we just don't know whose more at the potential of spreading than someone else.

We can load everyone up in one boat, but I do find generalizing the world population does add to the non compassion. It's assuming everyone's situation is the same and its not. Even experts know this.

Again, the current scientific consensus is that, bar a tiny minority of cases, it is invariably and significantly safer to get vaccinated than not. I trust health authorities and experts more than I do individual laypeople's takes.

I'm not interested in pursuing this tangent here, though, since this thread isn't about the established medical consensus. Let's stay on topic.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Again, the current scientific consensus is that, bar a tiny minority of cases, it is invariably and significantly safer to get vaccinated than not. I trust health authorities and experts more than I do individual laypeople's takes.

I'm not interested in pursuing this tangent here, though, since this thread isn't about the established medical consensus. Let's stay on topic.

It isn't.

I am not saying you are wrong.

*Set aside that I'm unvaccinated for a minute since I am not debating*

I'm just saying neutrally (not to prove argue) that if less than half the people have a chance of spreading COVID while another place more than half, we just don't know whose more potential and who is not.

Scientists and doctors are looking at age as a factor of potential spread, ethnicity, and other factors involved. They know that these factors play a part in who has more potential to spread and who does not.

Relating to your OP: People's have less compassion also because provaxxers are generalizing the world population over this.

I'm not saying you're wrong. A vaccinated person may say the same thing. It's not pro/anti vaxxer statement.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Relating to your OP: People's have less compassion also because provaxxers are generalizing the world population over this.

I think this is largely unrelated because lack of empathy depends on individuals first and foremost. Trying to pin it on "provaxxers" (i.e., people who accept and respect the consensus of actual medical authorities) seems to me quite divisive and counterproductive.

Please please please set aside I'm unvaccinated.

Whether or not you're unvaccinated is of no consequence to the point of my OP, which is that the suffering or death of unvaccinated people is no cause for celebration or joy. It doesn't change the fact that dismissing experts' urging of people to get vaccinated is both unreasonable and dangerous. That I find your decision to be such and loathe it as a result doesn't mean I would ever be happy if you or anyone else who made a similar decision suffered or died. I wish you good health either way.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I think this is largely unrelated because lack of empathy depends on individuals first and foremost. Trying to pin it on "provaxxers" (i.e., people who accept and respect the consensus of actual medical authorities) seems to me quite divisive and counterproductive.

Generalizing leads to a lot of problems in general. In your OP you mentioned about provaxxers gloating about antivaxxers if the latter is ill or harmed. One of the things that harms people in general is generalizing their religious, regular, and political opinions into one boat (say right/left) and judging each side by it.

It's going by your OP in that the blame falls on both parties.

My point is no one is the victim and I mentioned your OP is well-said... and just adding my thoughts about compassion and generalization in regards to judging and laughing at others who are harmed because of their individual opinions.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Whether or not you're unvaccinated is of no consequence to the point of my OP, which is that the suffering or death of unvaccinated people is no cause for celebration or joy. It doesn't change the fact that dismissing experts' urging of people to get vaccinated is both unreasonable and dangerous. That I find your decision to be such and loathe it as a result doesn't mean I would ever be happy if you or anyone else who made a similar decision suffered or died. I wish you good health either way.

Please please don't bring your opinion about me into this. I was specifically saying that generalization leads to lack of compassion whether its pro/antivaxxers, christian/atheist, whatever. You guys already formed an ill opinion about me, please set that aside. Compassion doesn't have a double standard.
 

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
On multiple occasions on which the subject of COVID vaccines have been brought up, I have seen such comments as "I have no sympathy for people who die of COVID after choosing not to get vaccinated," "this is just natural selection" (in reference to their dying of COVID), etc., and even open gloating over people's deaths because they were anti-vaxxers.

I should start this by saying that, per the consensus of major health authorities around the world, I'm staunchly in favor of getting any vaccine one can apply for, unless one is within the significantly tiny minority of people who are demonstrably at a higher risk of harm from the COVID vaccines than they are of COVID or are unable to get vaccinated for any other reason. I would be vaccinated by now myself if it weren't for the fact that my demographic group has much less priority for vaccination rollout than multiple other ones.

With that out of the way, I find the kinds of comments I mentioned above to be extremely callous, unnecessary, and counter to the value of viewing human life as sacred and of utmost importance. My own parents are sadly among those who believe in misinformation, fearmongering, and conspiracy theories about the vaccines, and since they never had sufficient education to value scientific consensus or critical thinking, they're quite prone to believing unsubstantiated claims not just about the vaccines but also about many other topics. This is despite my persistent and ongoing attempts to better inform them about the vaccines and why they should apply for them as soon as they can.

Personally, when I come across such comments, one of the first things I think of is how hurtful and tactless I would find them to be if my parents or anyone else I cared about ever got severely ill or died from COVID. It is a reminder that even though I know that decision is harmful and misinformed, not everyone who makes it is a terrible person or someone who ever deserves to suffer severe illness or death due to their poor decision.

What's the point of such comments or the stark lack of compassion that underpins them, in any case? If the goal is to preserve human life and well-being by encouraging vaccine uptake, then such dismissal of the lives of people who don't know better about vaccines is both counterproductive to that goal and potentially alienating to those who may be willing to change their minds with evidence and logic.

If, on the other hand, the goal is purely to celebrate the suffering of said people purely because one dislikes their stance and finds it completely irrational and/or irresponsible (just as I find it, actually), then it seems to me one needs to rethink their priorities and compassion for others given such willingness to relish others' suffering or death. I feel relieved when someone I care about even in the slightest survives this illness, whether or not they're vaccinated. I only hope that they survive and go on to change their mind and get vaccinated, not that they suffer or die.

The only reason I felt the need to start this thread is that I strongly felt like some people were talking about a group that includes people I love and care about in a dehumanizing and callous way, as if said group deserved whatever terrible fate they faced because of their anti-vax stance (which, I reiterate, I agree is both irrational and irresponsible). When did concern for public health turn into celebrating each other's illness or death? Is this really a way to promote vaccine awareness or encourage respect for science? I absolutely don't think so.

i think we must always be compassionate

when people reap the consequences of decisions made through stupidity, we cannot care about the results. if we do ALL we can to implore someone to make an intelligent choice and they refuse, we must accept their decision
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
The word that relates to the OP is schadenfreude. I agree enjoying other people's misfortune is a mistake.

Where I find it hard to avoid a bit of enjoyment is a criminal finally getting charged with a crime. That's a different situation.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I think of it in a way similar to seeing someone riding a motorcycle without a helmet. They may be lucky if they manage to not have something bad happen to them. But if they do have something bad happen to them, it is likely to be much worse because of the decisions they made. And I think there is some element of responsibility because they don't take the simple precautions to avoid the worst case scenarios that are far too common and easily predicted.

I also place a LOT of blame on those who spread the misinformation. In today's world, they are killers.

I hope your family is not among their victims.
I see it like drunk driving or second hand smoke. It's a "no excuse/by birth" choice that puts others at risk. And it's sad when it happens regardless, but ultimately all accidental deaths are of equal creations.
Needlessly gambling with covid isn't the dumbest thing one can do, but at the same time a ton of hospitalized people thought they'd be ok and it's just a little flu.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
I don’t wish death or injury upon anti vaxxers. Nor do I think they “deserve” death or injury for their decision.
I do think their decision is ultimately reckless, selfish and nothing but arrogance perhaps a bit of ignorance.

That said, it’s not the anti vaxxers that suffer for their choice. It’s the vulnerable people who rely on herd immunity to protect them from “just the cold.” People with lives and family/friends of their own. People who do not deserve to die for the selfish actions of their own community.

I usually try to temper my emotional reasoning when examining issues. But this is one issue that I’m just blinded by my emotions, despite myself. And I freely admit that
 
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