Lack of fraternity in the modern West

[Brickjectivity]

There are advantages to tribalism such as fraternity -- something which much of the West has lost to our great detriment. We no longer have men meeting anywhere without women. We are all stuck together. We lack the unity that male-only religious spaces once provided and the ability to communicate things that women hate to talk about. I think this happened as women came to fear our male fraternities, and so men were pressured out of them. We forgot how important they were. I don't blame women for this, but I see it as something which must be counterbalanced. Sports are not enough. The military is not enough. The scouts are not enough (nor are they male only anymore).

Compare the modern West to Islam and Judaism. What powerful advantages do these religions provide which make them so competitive with modern society? Among other things they have fraternity. I won't say it is their only advantage, but it is an advantage. Men can talk about things that women don't want to talk about.

We once had secret fraternities, public fraternities, secular fraternities, religious fraternities. Now fraternities have come into ill repute. They are college party devices to many people. They are scary. They are 'Sausage parties'. They are dangerous. Men cannot be trusted to have these spaces.

Men together are presumed gay. Like Watson and Shirlock Holmes or Ernie and Bert. This is so wrong. People have friends, and people need friends. Its wrong to put shame onto men or to impute sexual lust to us for having feelings or needing to talk and associate, but this is what modern society is doing.

Its an area in which the West needs improvement.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Here is some good advice from a US expat living alone in the Phillippine islands. (The Phillippines) This is a country which has some history with the USA and which is an ally and which exchanges citizens with us frequently. I have known multiple Phillipino people to live here and have encountered them in many parts of the USA, have relatives and in laws. One of my cousins lived there and got married to someone there, too.

This fellow gives some generally good advice directed at "Single old men" but generally good for anyone living alone anywhere. I'll link the video below, but here is what he warns about.

• When you start to get old you need to stay in contact with people and have people who are familiar with your schedule, because you may get into trouble while you are by yourself. If in the USA get a service like Life Alert. If you are somewhere else without cell service get an extremely loud whistle and know your neighbors.
• A dog or a pet may help with intruders and boost your feelings, but if you fall and break your leg the dog cannot help, and you cannot help the dog. Pets cannot replace human relationships or at least caring neighbors.
• Don't fall into a sedentary lifestyle. This can be worse for you than smoking.
• Many single old men injure themselves trying to do things that used to be easy such as: cleaning their gutters or even doing housework.
• Get rid of all of the stuff you do not use. Don't leave it for your family to figure out after you die. Clutter becomes increasingly hard to manage, and its easy to just give up and live in filth that you notice less and less.
• Make friends and actively create occasions to invite people to.
• Living alone may feel comfortable and easy, but without good hobbies and interactions your sense of time can become distorted. You may miss important deadlines such as applying for benefits or paying bills. Days can run into weeks and months. You may forget what month it is. Do something which gives you a sense of purpose: hobbies, charitable participation, family interaction. Do something that connects you with time and ideally with your best self.

Here is the url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E8xy_79wrs"

 

[Secret Chief]

Men can talk about things that women don't want to talk about.

Examples?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Examples?

No, but there are examples of past fraternities getting demonized in recent western culture and that have been shut down as a result.

Masons, mens clubs, scouts and more recently the military. Men who get out of the military often express how they miss the fraternal aspect, as if it were something exclusive to the military. No, it is not exclusive to the military but deficient in our culture. Having experienced it in the military they more easily note its absence.

 

[England my lionheart]

I love the pub and Rugby club and,women are part of that now,If they are on the same side what’s the problem.

 

[Secret Chief]

No

Sorry, I don't understand. If you can't give examples of what men want to talk about but can't when there's women present I don't see the basis for what you are suggesting is the problem / need.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

We no longer have men meeting anywhere without women. We are all stuck together.

Why don't they know their place? Give them the right to vote and the next thing you know ...

 

[Secret Chief]

Why don't they know their place? Give them the right to vote and the next thing you know ...

They'll be driving buses!

 

[Argentbear]

There are advantages to tribalism such as fraternity -- something which much of the West has lost to our great detriment. We no longer have men meeting anywhere without women. We are all stuck together. We lack the unity that male-only religious spaces once provided and the ability to communicate things that women hate to talk about.

what things?

I think this happened as women came to fear our male fraternities, and so men were pressured out of them. We forgot how important they were. I don't blame women for this, but I see it as something which must be counterbalanced. Sports are not enough. The military is not enough. The scouts are not enough (nor are they male only anymore).

They were male only as a means of control over women. Insecure men need the illusion that they are stronger than women, smarter than women and the ones connected to the Divine. You can't have women competing ins sports or serving in the military and keep up the pretense that women are weak. Insecure men need to beleive they are special and and if women are doing the same thing they are then they are no longer special. So they have to prove to themselves they are stronger, first by hurting women, not just physical violence like abuse, rape or child molestation but emotional and spiritual violence. And when that doesn't work insecure men have to convince themselves that women who compete are defective, they are lesbians, they are feminists, they are not REALLY women.

 

[Secret Chief]

what things?

I'm waiting for clarification too, given the inability to provide examples.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Why don't they know their place? Give them the right to vote and the next thing you know ...

I am not against suffrage. I don't know statistics about past voting and what changes have been impacted by it, however I think suffrage makes sense intuitively. Representation matters.

It was a complete blindspot wasn't it? Thinking women didn't need suffrage seems strange, now.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Sorry, I don't understand. If you can't give examples of what men want to talk about but can't when there's women present I don't see the basis for what you are suggesting is the problem / need.

I feel that you are asking me to explain what men would discuss outside of mixed company, and I think I have already stated that its things we wouldn't discuss in mixed company. Why not ask me for the last digit of Pi instead?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

There are advantages to tribalism such as fraternity -- something which much of the West has lost to our great detriment. We no longer have men meeting anywhere without women. We are all stuck together. We lack the unity that male-only religious spaces once provided and the ability to communicate things that women hate to talk about. I think this happened as women came to fear our male fraternities, and so men were pressured out of them. We forgot how important they were. I don't blame women for this, but I see it as something which must be counterbalanced. Sports are not enough. The military is not enough. The scouts are not enough (nor are they male only anymore).

Compare the modern West to Islam and Judaism. What powerful advantages do these religions provide which make them so competitive with modern society? Among other things they have fraternity. I won't say it is their only advantage, but it is an advantage. Men can talk about things that women don't want to talk about.

We once had secret fraternities, public fraternities, secular fraternities, religious fraternities. Now fraternities have come into ill repute. They are college party devices to many people. They are scary. They are 'Sausage parties'. They are dangerous. Men cannot be trusted to have these spaces.

Men together are presumed gay. Like Watson and Shirlock Holmes or Ernie and Bert. This is so wrong. People have friends, and people need friends. Its wrong to put shame onto men or to impute sexual lust to us for having feelings or needing to talk and associate, but this is what modern society is doing.

Its an area in which the West needs improvement.

I don't need to exclude women to have connections to other people. Even after reading this, I'm not sure why you feel that you do.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I don't need to exclude women to have connections to other people. Even after reading this, I'm not sure why you feel that you do.

Finally a reasonable response. That's great. Good for you.

 

[PureX]

I agree that both men and women need to spend time with their own gender, to support each other and to learn from each other; the specifics of their gender roles in the culture.

But as with all things, especially gatherings of humans, these can easily become toxic and abusive. So however they get set up, if they ever do get set up, we need to be keenly vigilant of them. And we need to have laws/systems in place to disband them quickly and succinctly if they turn toxic.

 

[Secret Chief]

I feel that you are asking me to explain what men would discuss outside of mixed company, and I think I have already stated that its things we wouldn't discuss in mixed company. Why not ask me for the last digit of Pi instead?

Odd. You think there should be men-only places/groups for particular topics of conversation and are simultaneously unable to give any examples of said topics. I agree asking for the last digit of pi is probably more likely to get a meaningful response from you. (Other than your inability completely undermines your claim for the need for such spaces/groups)

 

[Watchmen]

Every year I have a guys only getaway with close friends.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Men together are presumed gay. Like Watson and Shirlock Holmes or Ernie and Bert. This is so wrong. People have friends, and people need friends. Its wrong to put shame onto men or to impute sexual lust to us for having feelings or needing to talk and associate, but this is what modern society is doing.

But in the historical traditions you're yearning for, groups of men often were sexually active with each other.

 

[VoidCat]

I think male only spaces and women only spaces are ok long as they open to intersex and trans people like nonbinary or binary trans people... It seems there's a lot of things men might relate with other men about that they won't with women. I practice witchcraft...my gender identity as a nonbinary person is heavily tied to it. I cannot take my gender identity out of my practice. Gender is very heavy in our culture and affects a lot of our lives. I can see why one might want to find solidarity with their own gender. I also think more immature men could use guidance from more mature men to be better people. However

I think we also need more adult spaces, mixed gender spaces that arent bars and specific to just making friends. I also think we need to work on having kids play in mix gender places without parents assuming they dating or even teasing them for it and wonder later why men cant see women as anything other then sex objects later on. We are in a very gender segregated society.

As for men not being allowed to be affectionate with each other this isn't just a men problem. Any gender can't be physically affectionate with anyone without attraction being assumed men just get hit worse with this for a variety of cultural reasons. I hate it id love to cuddle my friends as friends not romantic but unfortunately i cant even ask to do that without judgement and folk assuming sexual attraction.

I think we need more friend places in general.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

There are advantages to tribalism such as fraternity -- something which much of the West has lost to our great detriment. We no longer have men meeting anywhere without women. We are all stuck together. We lack the unity that male-only religious spaces once provided and the ability to communicate things that women hate to talk about. I think this happened as women came to fear our male fraternities, and so men were pressured out of them. We forgot how important they were. I don't blame women for this, but I see it as something which must be counterbalanced. Sports are not enough. The military is not enough. The scouts are not enough (nor are they male only anymore).

Compare the modern West to Islam and Judaism. What powerful advantages do these religions provide which make them so competitive with modern society? Among other things they have fraternity. I won't say it is their only advantage, but it is an advantage. Men can talk about things that women don't want to talk about.

We once had secret fraternities, public fraternities, secular fraternities, religious fraternities. Now fraternities have come into ill repute. They are college party devices to many people. They are scary. They are 'Sausage parties'. They are dangerous. Men cannot be trusted to have these spaces.

Men together are presumed gay. Like Watson and Shirlock Holmes or Ernie and Bert. This is so wrong. People have friends, and people need friends. Its wrong to put shame onto men or to impute sexual lust to us for having feelings or needing to talk and associate, but this is what modern society is doing.

Its an area in which the West needs improvement.

I agree having good male friends that love each other is a benefit to a lot of men. Talking to other men about being a husband or father is valuable to get their perspective and understanding if they have similar experiences. My wife goes out with her women friends regular and I think it is a good thing.