Lack of fraternity in the modern West

[VoidCat]

@Secret Chief. And @Brickjectivity
Regarding things men might not discuss with women...taking away the worse scenarios like objectifying women and sexist talk I can think of a few things.

It would be individual. Some men might feel more comfortable talking to men about problems they have in their relationships. It's not that they can't discuss it with women. They just might be more comfortable. Some might feel more comfortable talking about experiences they grew up with related to being a man with other men who could relate. They could talk to women sure but women might nit get it having not grown up as a man. Change the genders a bit. Women might not be comfortable talking to men about their first ever period cycle, sexual harrassment they have faced due to social views regarding women, about pregnacy, or about other things related to their experiences as women. Switch it back to men. Men might not want to talk to women about things like mens health issues, how they dont feel comfortable expressing emotions because if socialization, how they might struggle with women being afraid due to them simply being men walking down the street, and people thinking they cant be a good parent they must have their wife do everything and are congratulated for the bare minimum when it comes to kids. Things that women might not relate to.

Its not to say women cant understand things like this. But men might feel more comfortable talking to other men about these things as they may relate more.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I agree that both men and women need to spend time with their own gender, to support each other and to learn from each other; the specifics of their gender roles in the culture.

But as with all things, especially gatherings of humans, these can easily become toxic and abusive. So however they get set up, if they ever do get set up, we need to be keenly vigilant of them. And we need to have laws/systems in place to disband them quickly and succinctly if they turn toxic.

Maybe. Its reasonable, although 'Reasonable' is not the same as 'Fully thought through'. I would weigh the danger of such laws first, which could be a kind of anti speech laws.

I must leave for work, but I appreciate all responses. Please keep in mind its not a debate forum, so I'm not able to defend my idea to you here. I suppose we could debate this elsewhere when I am free again in about a week. At the same time I'm not going to discuss openly what fraternities might discuss privately. I'd simply ask that we not presume fraternities exist for evil instead of for good. Men can do good you know.

 

[England my lionheart]

I think male only spaces and women only spaces are ok long as they open to intersex and trans people like nonbinary or binary trans people... It seems there's a lot of things men might relate with other men about that they won't with women. I practice witchcraft...my gender identity as a nonbinary person is heavily tied to it. I cannot take my gender identity out of my practice. Gender is very heavy in our culture and affects a lot of our lives. I can see why one might want to find solidarity with their own gender. I also think more immature men could use guidance from more mature men to be better people. However

I think we also need more adult spaces, mixed gender spaces that arent bars and specific to just making friends. I also think we need to work on having kids play in mix gender places without parents assuming they dating or even teasing them for it and wonder later why men cant see women as anything other then sex objects later on. We are in a very gender segregated society.

As for men not being allowed to be affectionate with each other this isn't just a men problem. Any gender can't be physically affectionate with anyone without attraction being assumed men just get hit worse with this for a variety of cultural reasons. I hate it id love to cuddle my friends as friends not romantic but unfortunately i cant even ask to do that without judgement and folk assuming sexual attraction.

I think we need more friend places in general.

That’s fair but does that include Women’s spaces like restrooms and sport or even prisons?.

 

[VoidCat]

That’s fair but does that include Women’s spaces like restrooms and sport or even prisons?.

We arent talking bout restrooms or prisons. We are talking bout things like fraternities. Things like clubs...As for sports...case by case basis and id rather not discuss it here

This is a nondebating area. Bringing up sports, bathrooms, and prisons is asking for a debate regardless of mine or your opinion.

 

[England my lionheart]

Well if a transman on T long enough walked into a men's restroom no one would notice the difference and if they walk into a women's the women would freak. Trust me I get weird looks in both bathrooms and no one knows which one i should go to in public. I just try to go to the mens if i look masc enough and the women's if i look more femme. Either way im likely to get weird looks. Most trans folk go to the bathroom they would be the safest in anyway which usually is based on which they look the most like. No transwoman wants to go to the mens and get sexually assaulted or beat up for it and no trans man wants to go to the women's and scare the women in there. Trans folk just want to pee. As for prisons and sports case by case basis.

I actually know a trans man,she went through the whole process,known her for years,I can see the problems she would have to negotiate in your post.

 

[VoidCat]

I actually know a trans man,she went through the whole process,known her for years,I can see the problems she would have to negotiate in your post.

I deleted that post and put this

We arent talking bout restrooms or prisons. We are talking bout things like fraternities. Things like clubs...As for sports...case by case basis and id rather not discuss it here

This is a nondebating area. Bringing up sports, bathrooms, and prisons is asking for a debate regardless of mine or your opinion.

Im worried of the thread derailing and turning into a debate. It's not that i think youd break the rules or i would. Its that others might. Thats why i deleted my post.

 

[England my lionheart]

I deleted that post and put this

Im worried of the thread derailing and turning into a debate. It's not that i think youd break the rules or i would. Its that others might. Thats why i deleted my post.

I have faith in the moderators.

 

[VoidCat]

I have faith in the moderators.

Same. I just dont want to give them too much to clean up. In response to your post regarding your trans friend...it can be difficult navigating as a transperson in general. We live in a very complex society.

 

[England my lionheart]

Same. I just dont want to give them too much to clean up. In response to your post regarding your trans friend...it can be difficult navigating as a transperson in general. We live in a very complex society.

We certainly do or we make it like that.

 

[VoidCat]

We certainly do or we make it like that.

Humans are all different and can be complex. It's amazing. I love it.

 

[Secret Chief]

@Secret Chief. And @Brickjectivity
Regarding things men might not discuss with women...taking away the worse scenarios like objectifying women and sexist talk I can think of a few things.

It would be individual. Some men might feel more comfortable talking to men about problems they have in their relationships. It's not that they can't discuss it with women. They just might be more comfortable. Some might feel more comfortable talking about experiences they grew up with related to being a man with other men who could relate. They could talk to women sure but women might nit get it having not grown up as a man. Change the genders a bit. Women might not be comfortable talking to men about their first ever period cycle, sexual harrassment they have faced due to social views regarding women, about pregnacy, or about other things related to their experiences as women. Switch it back to men. Men might not want to talk to women about things like mens health issues, how they dont feel comfortable expressing emotions because if socialization, how they might struggle with women being afraid due to them simply being men walking down the street, and people thinking they cant be a good parent they must have their wife do everything and are congratulated for the bare minimum when it comes to kids. Things that women might not relate to.

Its not to say women cant understand things like this. But men might feel more comfortable talking to other men about these things as they may relate more.

The OP referred to things women "hate to talk about."

 

[VoidCat]

The OP referred to things women "hate to talk about."

Im tired might not have read it right. Yesterday i finished over half a semester work that I only worked on for 3 days. And today I worked 6 hours instead of resting. Let me look back.

 

[JustGeorge]

I wonder if it isn't so much that these fraternities are 'bad', its that they've fallen out of popularity. Lifestyles change.

As far as I know, there are still several fraternities operating locally. They mostly consist of older gentlemen, but there are enough younger men to keep them going.

My husband and I joined a Co-Masonic lodge years ago(lodges that admit both men and women). We wanted to do something together. He was working an insane amount, and rather than get away from his wife, he wanted to spend time with her.

I think there's less taboo with what men and women can discuss together for younger folks, too. My closest friend is a male. My husband's only friend is a female.

If someone wants to spend time with only their own gender, there's opportunity to do so. I just think the need is lessening.

 

[VoidCat]

The OP referred to things women "hate to talk about."

Ah I see now. Just reread it. I wonder if the OP had trouble wording things or if they notice things that woman might not like talking about. I know socially a person might be conditioned to hate talking about certain topics and maybe genderwise this is true. I cant think of any innocent topics offhand but i do know some men hate talking about periods and other women's issues. I wonder if there are taboo topics women hate talking about that men are socialized to be more ok with.

I have hardly any adult friends of any gender offline and I grew up practically friendless so i can't say much on what people are socialized to talk about as easily as most people due to gender identity. I cant relate to having girlfriends talking of girl topics or guy friends talking of guy topics. I been an outcast when it comes to that.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

There are advantages to tribalism such as fraternity -- something which much of the West has lost to our great detriment. We no longer have men meeting anywhere without women. We are all stuck together. We lack the unity that male-only religious spaces once provided and the ability to communicate things that women hate to talk about. I think this happened as women came to fear our male fraternities, and so men were pressured out of them. We forgot how important they were. I don't blame women for this, but I see it as something which must be counterbalanced. Sports are not enough. The military is not enough. The scouts are not enough (nor are they male only anymore).

Compare the modern West to Islam and Judaism. What powerful advantages do these religions provide which make them so competitive with modern society? Among other things they have fraternity. I won't say it is their only advantage, but it is an advantage. Men can talk about things that women don't want to talk about.

We once had secret fraternities, public fraternities, secular fraternities, religious fraternities. Now fraternities have come into ill repute. They are college party devices to many people. They are scary. They are 'Sausage parties'. They are dangerous. Men cannot be trusted to have these spaces.

Men together are presumed gay. Like Watson and Shirlock Holmes or Ernie and Bert. This is so wrong. People have friends, and people need friends. Its wrong to put shame onto men or to impute sexual lust to us for having feelings or needing to talk and associate, but this is what modern society is doing.

Its an area in which the West needs improvement.

This is very true. Males need rites of initiation and male bonding to learn how to fulfill their masculine role in society in a positive way. Manhood was viewed as something you're initiated into. That's how it was for most of our existence as a species. (Girls and women also need their own spaces.) Street gangs, for example, are an example of this instinct, but often taken in a negative direction due to lack of guidance from older men.

 

[Alien826]

Sorry, I don't understand. If you can't give examples of what men want to talk about but can't when there's women present I don't see the basis for what you are suggesting is the problem / need.

First thought. In England years ago the place for men to get away from their families for a while was the pub. Kids weren't allowed and women were discouraged. Then they started all this "family" business with meals served and families encouraged.
Second thought. I find it amusing when a man is pressured to give examples of something that was specifically described as something men didn't want women to hear.
Third thought. If you really want an example, "dirty" jokes were something that women were considered too "delicate" to be exposed to. It was also somewhere you could grumble about your wife and share condolences with other PWed friends. And then there were extra marital "experiences" to be shared, mostly invented if the truth were told. Enough examples?

 

[Heyo]

We lack the unity that male-only religious spaces once provided and the ability to communicate things that women hate to talk about.

What if I also hate what women hate to talk about?

 

[Brickjectivity]

I think male only spaces and women only spaces are ok long as they open to intersex and trans people like nonbinary or binary trans people... It seems there's a lot of things men might relate with other men about that they won't with women. I practice witchcraft...my gender identity as a nonbinary person is heavily tied to it. I cannot take my gender identity out of my practice. Gender is very heavy in our culture and affects a lot of our lives. I can see why one might want to find solidarity with their own gender. I also think more immature men could use guidance from more mature men to be better people. However

I think that there are a variety of needs, and you are talking about one of them. In terms of a fraternal association there is an element of loyalty, and so as long as there is a common basis of loyalty you can fraternize. This means that it requires cleverness and luck to get started and a core commitment. As giant pickle has indicated there are going to be homosexuals and also people of inexplicable situation, but its not just anybody who can make that work. Its up to you mostly if you can fraternize, establish loyalty, kinship; but its also out of your hands since you need everyone on board. There has to be a reason that everyone trusts the rest. Some make it blood oaths and threats of death, but that may not be the best kind of loyalty to bring out the best in everyone. What you want is a loyalty of a better kind. You want a fraternity which makes everyone grow and be their amazing selves, and you need one that lets people deal with personality problems. It is a tall order. A great fraternal organization might be based upon service to the community. It might be a common problem such as to oppose bandits. Maybe its defense of the community, or maybe its to combat alcoholism. The better the fraternity, the more people can make themselves a place in it. Smaller is not always bad though it is more exclusive - a trade off.

I think we also need more adult spaces, mixed gender spaces that arent bars and specific to just making friends. I also think we need to work on having kids play in mix gender places without parents assuming they dating or even teasing them for it and wonder later why men cant see women as anything other then sex objects later on. We are in a very gender segregated society.

I know of a lot of homes that are not parent based but family based because of the many, many single moms these days. I think by saying 'Parents' I am leaving out 1/5 to 1/2 of some populations; but lets just say I mean all the guardians of the children when I say 'Parents' whether it be nannies or cousins or grandparents etc. This kind of assocation is something the parents have to provide nowadays when children aren't even allowed to walk to school. Parents have to make play dates and schedule time for children to play with other children. Its a real struggle, but that is the situation. Kids can barely go anywhere. There aren't sidewalks enough, and people are afraid to let kids outside for fear of evil strangers. Towns look like ghost towns today.

As for men not being allowed to be affectionate with each other this isn't just a men problem. Any gender can't be physically affectionate with anyone without attraction being assumed men just get hit worse with this for a variety of cultural reasons. I hate it id love to cuddle my friends as friends not romantic but unfortunately i cant even ask to do that without judgement and folk assuming sexual attraction.

I think we need more friend places in general.

I believe this fear is traced back to a change in 19th century England. I don't remember, but before that it was common for friends to hold hands men included. I can't accurately tell you, because it was a video I saw. Nowadays if you hold hands it signals you are sexually attracted, and that is a jumped to conclusion. Hugging is normal, not sexual. Its healthy. How are we going to restore community, which currently is broken in my opinion?

 

[EinGeheimkonto]

Now fraternities have come into ill repute. They are college party devices to many people.

I mean this is due to a cultural shift.

A "fraternal order" in the ancient sense was a direct (albeit less formal) descendant of the sort of initiatic and spiritual-military orders of the past. They were in many ways a secular parallel to an order of monks in the Catholic tradition or the asceticism of Buddhism.

Later on, we had things like trade unions which are mainly commercial in nature.

The modern college fraternity is a kind of devolved version of their previous incarnations. It used to be that a frat would at least set you up with some business connections after you graduated. Nowadays it's indeed just a bunch of guys getting drunk on a Friday night

 

[Twilight Hue]

This is very true. Males need rites of initiation and male bonding to learn how to fulfill their masculine role in society in a positive way. Manhood was viewed as something you're initiated into. That's how it was for most of our existence as a species. (Girls and women also need their own spaces.) Street gangs, for example, are an example of this instinct, but often taken in a negative direction due to lack of guidance from older men.

That's why gangs and motorcycle clubs are so appealing to many people. It symbolizes fraternity and power as both forces of good and bad depending on how you view things.