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landmine ban

robtex

Veteran Member
How do yall fell about a ban on landmines? Here is an article about it.



BBC Uk reports:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4056113.stm

US 'hurting' anti-mine campaign

Anti-landmine campaigners meeting in Nairobi have accused the United States of setting a dangerous example by refusing to sign up to a worldwide ban.

The US says it has valid reasons to use anti-personnel landmines, particularly to protect its troops in South Korea.

More than 140 countries are signatories to the 1999 Ottawa Mine Ban Treaty.

But delegates say action from the US is vital to pushing on with efforts that have so far seen 40m devices detonated and stockpiles destroyed.

The Ottawa convention bans the production, stockpiling and use of anti-personnel landmines.

'Smart mines'

Dozens of countries have destroyed their stockpiles of mines and countless lives and limbs have been saved, says the BBC's Stuart Hughes from the summit.

But the US, which has stocks of 10m landmines, is the most notable absentee from the treaty and from the list of countries represented at the Nairobi conference.

It is the world's biggest donor to mine clearance programmes and is not thought to have planted any new mines since the 1991 Gulf war.

But the Bush administration announced earlier this year that it would not sign up to the treaty.

Steve Goose, of Human Rights Watch, said: "There are states who like to maintain that they won't join the convention until the US joins.

"So it's hurting our efforts to further universalise, to bring the rest of the world on board."

Activists are also concerned about America's research into so-called "smart mines" which self destruct within a few hours or weeks.

They say such mines have a failure rate of up to 10% and can be just as difficult to clear as traditional or "dumb" landmines.

Delegates are putting forward a five-year action plan to try to end the suffering caused by landmines, but they fear it will be toothless without US engagement.
 

desi

Member
Everyone banning land mines is a good idea if you live in a country with numerically superior army.
 

Pah

Uber all member
desi said:
Everyone banning land mines is a good idea if you live in a country with numerically superior army.

Unfortunetely, the United States does not agree. With a superior military, it refuses to sign the banning treatry on the premise that it's warriors should have every advantage.

Bob
 

desi

Member
pah said:
Unfortunetely, the United States does not agree. With a superior military, it refuses to sign the banning treatry on the premise that it's warriors should have every advantage.

Bob
Relative to China and Russia, America does not have a numerically superior army.
 

robtex

Veteran Member
I wonder is is it enforcable under the Geneva convention. If America stops using mines will others who are terribly overpowered and if the others do not will the US say to hell with it and plant mines?

Chemical warfare has had its up and downs since its banning. A landmine though is anonomous and after it blows who to say who put it there? Its a really tough game. I have to think about it a bit ..i hate thinking about war but we live in a world of wars....figured if I threw it on here others could nip at it for a while and I could grow from their insights.
 

Pah

Uber all member
desi said:
Relative to China and Russia, America does not have a numerically superior army.
Against "killing power", the numbers mean less than the effect the numbers can produce. I did say superior without a constricting adjective.

But I would not want my comments to lead to an off-topic debate.

Bob
 

desi

Member
pah said:
Against "killing power", the numbers mean less than the effect the numbers can produce. I did say superior without a constricting adjective.

But I would not want my comments to lead to an off-topic debate.

Bob
Landmines save the lives of the soldiers who use them.
 

Feathers in Hair

World's Tallest Hobbit
And since, by definition, civilians are the ones not fighting , I feel that they somehow have a right to not get killed or maimed. They aren't getting paid for risking their lives and limbs, so they shouldn't have to have them endangered.
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
The problem is once landmines are set it can be very difficult and dangerous to relocate them and disarm them. In many "third world" nations, such as in Africa, landmines stay in the ground for years after the conflict, completely unnoticed and forgotten and then wind up killing or maiming innocent civilians.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
the reason the USA does not want to ban land mines is that we are worlds largest producer of land mines for sale to other nations. What do we care if they kill innocent people, we also get payed to clear them up.
Its sick.

wa:do
 

Quoth The Raven

Half Arsed Muse
desi said:
If your side loses...
In case you were unaware of this, landmines aren't endowed with some sort of mystical power that enables them to pick and choose who they kill. Aside from this rather rude lack of discrimination, I would think that regardless of the 'side' that a six year old boy in a field may be on, he should be able to go about his six year old business without being killed or maimed by something that was laid before he was born.
If you disagree, then by all means, can I suggest you pursue a career in child care, what with your depth of feeling about the rights of the kiddies to have all their legs.
 

Pah

Uber all member
lady_lazarus said:
In case you were unaware of this, landmines aren't endowed with some sort of mystical power that enables them to pick and choose who they kill. Aside from this rather rude lack of discrimination, I would think that regardless of the 'side' that a six year old boy in a field may be on, he should be able to go about his six year old business without being killed or maimed by something that was laid before he was born.
If you disagree, then by all means, can I suggest you pursue a career in child care, what with your depth of feeling about the rights of the kiddies to have all their legs.
A powerful statment!! - worth as many frubals as I can give ya'. Thanks

Bob
 

desi

Member
lady_lazarus said:
In case you were unaware of this, landmines aren't endowed with some sort of mystical power that enables them to pick and choose who they kill. Aside from this rather rude lack of discrimination, I would think that regardless of the 'side' that a six year old boy in a field may be on, he should be able to go about his six year old business without being killed or maimed by something that was laid before he was born.
If you disagree, then by all means, can I suggest you pursue a career in child care, what with your depth of feeling about the rights of the kiddies to have all their legs.
Landmines are a powerful weapon in war, and war by definition is bad. Imagine if we pulled punches with Germany in WWII and Hiter won. We must move beyond the obvious before picking a side in such issues as landmines: Good or Bad?
 

Pah

Uber all member
desi said:
Landmines are a powerful weapon in war, and war by definition is bad. Imagine if we pulled punches with Germany in WWII and Hiter won. We must move beyond the obvious before picking a side in such issues as landmines: Good or Bad?
I don't think it is as powerful as you insinuate - got any data you can cite?

Bob
 

Quoth The Raven

Half Arsed Muse
desi said:
Landmines are a powerful weapon in war, and war by definition is bad. Imagine if we pulled punches with Germany in WWII and Hiter won. We must move beyond the obvious before picking a side in such issues as landmines: Good or Bad?
Here's some stats on landmines:

In 1993 there were an estimated 26,000 landmine casualties. This had dropped by 1999-2000 to an estimated 8,500 victims annually (though some estimates are as high as 3 times that number). 30-40% of these casualties were women and children, and the casualties were spread over 55 countries. Of these 55, 39 were not engaged in any sort of conflict at the time.
Landmines and other UXO (unexploded ordinance) affect 88 countries. In some there is land still too dangerous to farm due to mines laid during WW2. The only continents free of landmines are Australia and the Antarctic.
A landmine costs approximately $3 to make, and in excess of $1000 to clear. That is $1000 per individual mine. There are an estimated 100 - 120 million mines currently in the ground and mine clearance operations happening in 65 countries.
A study by the ICRC (International Committee of the Red Cross) found that there is no clear evidence that AP mines are of high military value. They studied the use of mines in 26 conflicts since 1940, and concluded the following:
'...properly establishing and maintaining an extensive border minefield is time consuming, expensive and dangerous and has rarely occurred in actual conflicts. In order to have any efficacy at all they need to be under continuous observation and direct fire, which is not always possible and is often not done. Under battlefield conditions the use, marking, and mapping of mines in accordance with classical military doctrine and international humanitarian law is extremely difficult, even for professional armed forces.'
'...the use of anti-personnel mines in accordance with the military doctrine which has justified their use has occurred infrequently and only when certain conditions were met: (a) both parties to the conflict were disciplined professional armies with high sense of responsibility and engaged in a short - lived international conflict; (b) the tactical situation was fairly static; (c) forces possessed adequate time and resources to mark, monitor and maintain minefields in accordance with law and doctrine, (d) mined areas were of sufficient economic or military value to ensure that mine clearance occurred and (e) sufficient political will existed to implement the above conditions.'
They also found that there is a high cost to the forces using AP mines in terms of casualties and limitations of tactical flexibility.
I don't know if I've moved 'beyond the obvious' (that they kill and maim innocents with no descrimination), but I've certainly picked my side. May have even justified my position with a couple of facts.:woohoo:
 

desi

Member
pah said:
I don't think it is as powerful as you insinuate - got any data you can cite?

Bob
Sure, the fact that every modern army either uses them or has them readily available.
 
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