Language

[Damien Bishop]

We all know how important language is to us. I started talking about this in another thread and took a suggestion to start a new thread about it. Im curious as to find out from some "language" scholars or autodidacts if you have anything to say about the lineage of language, and how we can better understand the spreading of Humanity. I am fascinated by the early writings of the Sumerians (Pictographs and Cuneiform), Egyptians (Heiroglyphs), Hindus (Sanskrit) ...and how they all relate to one another, as they are parallels words, meanings and writing of it. The question of who wrote first is constantly debated in my mind. I, most of the time, think the Sumerians were first...but read some where, that while they started the first writing, by way of record keeping, it wasnt nessesarily a spoken-written language, and that later Semetic infusion into Sumer and lower Mesopotamia, changed that forever. My debating myself on the "First to write" is always challenged when I read of the "older?" Sanskrit writings in India, or the writings of the Ancient people of eastern asia (Chinese-Japanese). From what I understand now, Language (written) was first done in Sumeria, circa 3000 b.c....but that doesnt seem right?

Any thoughts?

DB

 

[Sunstone]

I think you're write (pun intended) when you say that Sumer was the origin of writing.

 

[Druidus]

First, we assume that the very first language was a proto-seperation language (before the human tribes seperated, there were only some 1000 of us, due to a bottleneck, much like what occured with the cheetah, probably all speaking the same language). It could not have been one of those languages, because it was too early in human history for such practices as writing. This was around 200,000 years ago. From this area, which was central Kenya, humans went south, west, and east, to settle in most of Africa. It was only 60,000 years ago, that we spread into southern Asia, and into Australia, and then 40,000 years ago into northern Asia and Europe, then 30,000 years ago into the Americas, and 15,000 years ago into Oceania. At these times, there was no need to have written language, although, certainly, many new languages developed. It was after this, in 8000 BC, approximately, that agriculture was invented, in the fertile crescent. The fertile crescent included present day West Bank, Israel, Lebanon, and parts of Syria, Iraq, Turkey, and Jordan. At this time, written language would have been useful. It was at this time that pottery is thought to have been developed, and around this time that writing was developed. It was only later that agriculture spread elsewhere, corresponding with migrations of people (Though Native Americans and Polynesians are thought to have developed it on their own), northern Europe only recieving agriculture in 3000BC. Thus it is clear that cultures in this area were the first to develop written language.

 

[Prima]

I'm particularly interested in things like slang and how certain terms evolved and shifted. I find myself almost addicted to Mirriam-Webster's word of the day - I love the explainations of the different meanings of the word. Especially words like 'lesbian' which have absolutely fascinating literature-related stories behind them.

The 'creation' of the written language is interesting. Like you said, it did begin as record-keeping, but first as pictures. Cuneiform, if I recall correctly, actually started as pictures that resembled grain, cattle, etc. It then changed into a symbol - easier to make as there was a greater need for it. Eventually there were symbols for other things, too, besides farming-related ideas. I have a few interesting sheets which compare the languages from start to finish - they're fascinating. I'll see if I can find them and scan them in


Keep in mind, Damien, that different people have different ideas of what writing is. Symbols for wheat are symbols - are they a written language? The inclusion of such things as grammar further muddle the issue. Does anyone happen to have a definition for written language that is used by most scholars?

 

[Druidus]

Wasn't the word "lesbian" taken from a group of rebels located on Asia, north of present day Egypt and east of Greece? Southeast of ancient Dacia, and Thrace?

 

[Master Vigil]

I find it more interesting that someimes we can understand each other, even if we don't know what the other is saying.

I know the chinese was one of the first writing systems, but not sure about spoken languages.

 

[michel]

Wasn't the word "lesbian" taken from a group of rebels located on Asia, north of present day Egypt and east of Greece? Southeast of ancient Dacia, and Thrace?

I think you'll find it comes from the island 'Lesbos' in Greece

 

[Dinogrrl]

Or 'Lesbia', the lover of a famous Roman poet. :}

 

[anders]

I like to interpret "writing" as graphic symbols that rather directly represent language. Most definitions use "spoken langage", but I haven't made up my mind on that.

In any case, the oldest finds that generally are regarded as writing are from ca. 3200 BCE in Mesopotamia (the Sumerians) and ca 3100 BCE in Egypt. If the finds from Vinwa near Belgrade fit the definition, writing is another 2000 years old.

But we of course don't know when or where writing was "invented". The oldest Chinese finds are from ca. 1200 BCE, but they represent a quite developed stage.

 

[michel]

PART QUOTE: Prima [I find myself almost addicted to Mirriam-Webster's word of the day]

As do I - I had never heard of that site until I joined RF.
The sort of thing that I find fascinating about language is how there are phrases in different languages which loose a lot by translation. We are fortunate that we are all four (mostly) conversationally trilingual - although Marie is fluent in Spanish as I am in French; with James now doing his degree in both those languages + Italian, conversations in our house can be quite err interesting.

I have a grand lady friend (she and my mother knew each other from before the war) who also speaks French; we play games of what we call 'Franglais puns' - ie a coloquial phrase translated literally from one language to the other, using the 'wrong' meaning of a word on purpose. It is tiring but fun. I also love the roots of words - and the roots of expressions.
An example is 'mind your p's and q's' (I doubt that that is used in the States - it is a very 'British' expression for 'Whatch your step' - This stems for the time (Victorian days) where men would go into a pub and have their drinks 'on a slate'.ie the barman would mark a blackboard for each drink for each customer during the evening; at the end, the customer would pay the total on the 'slate'. A crafty barman might well write 'q' (for a Quart) instead of 'p' (for a pint). Another one is the superstition (I doubt very much that this applies out of Europe) of lighting a third smoker's cigarette with one match; this came from the first World war - in the trenches - if a soldier lighted a cigarette for himself and his 'next door neighbour' at night, they would be O.K; if they allowed another guy to light his from the same match, this would give the German marksmen time to focus on the light and get an accurate shot in.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

The Sumerian language exists only in theory, and the scholarship that I am aware of constructs Sumerian by comparing hypothetical Hebrew and Greek construct-roots to hypothetical Sumerian usage. From my study, I think that Sumerian came from early contact with Sanskrit. As far as we know, the familes of languages that I am familiar with have their commof roots in Sanskrit:

Sanskrit - Sumerian / Akkadian (these folks were not very noble, and the political situation caused their language to die out execptionally quick IMO)- Hebrew/Aramic - Greek (several families here Ionic, Doric, Attic)- Latin - then the Romance Languages

The Germanic peoples IMO corrupted Latin/early Roman script and some vocab and other influences beyond all recognition and pervered it to create the Germanic languages: German, English, and other yucky languages that have not the accuracy and beauty of Greek and Latin. It is a miracle that folks with such poor language could conquer and survive IMHO.

O well, that's my 45 cents. Hope you can buy something useful with it.

 

[No*s]

The Sumerian language exists only in theory, and the scholarship that I am aware of constructs Sumerian by comparing hypothetical Hebrew and Greek construct-roots to hypothetical Sumerian usage. From my study, I think that Sumerian came from early contact with Sanskrit. As far as we know, the familes of languages that I am familiar with have their commof roots in Sanskrit:

Sanskrit - Sumerian / Akkadian (these folks were not very noble, and the political situation caused their language to die out execptionally quick IMO)- Hebrew/Aramic - Greek (several families here Ionic, Doric, Attic)- Latin - then the Romance Languages

The Germanic peoples IMO corrupted Latin/early Roman script and some vocab and other influences beyond all recognition and pervered it to create the Germanic languages: German, English, and other yucky languages that have not the accuracy and beauty of Greek and Latin. It is a miracle that folks with such poor language could conquer and survive IMHO.

O well, that's my 45 cents. Hope you can buy something useful with it.

I don't think that is the case . Sumerian is older than our Sanskrit records. Linguists also classify Sumerian in its own linguistic family, so it's pretty far from Hebrew and Greek also.

This is one of those things I'm looking forward to getting back to Plainview for: access to academic books

 

[painted wolf]

from what I've read Written Language started indipendantly in several areas of the world at different times.

Middle East, China and Americas developed writing indipendantly of one another. However once the idea was formed it took off rather quickly.
Early Chinese charators have been found inscribed on turtle shells and are at least as old as the early Sumerian cuneiforms.
In the Americas the oldest is from about 650 bc. At lest for now, there is still some debate as to the Quipu or knot 'writing' of the Inca empire. Is it 'written' language?
If it is what does that say about the chances of finding other 'written' languages that are not traditional and may have rotted away.
There is also debate as to the Olmec and the other anchient civilizations of the Chilian coast.

wa:do

 

[Valjean]

"Mind your Ps and Qs" is used in the states, though it's somewhat archaic. I never had a clue to it's origin. Ditto with three on a match, but with the denigration of smoking and the popularity of disposable lighters the expression may well become a historical curiosity.

 

[Dinogrrl]

p's and q's comes from comes from tavern owners telling their rowdy patrons to 'mind your own pints and quarts'. :}

 

[anders]

The Sumerian language exists only in theory

And on hundreds of thousands of clay tablets.

the scholarship that I am aware of constructs Sumerian by comparing hypothetical Hebrew and Greek construct-roots to hypothetical Sumerian usage.

Like No*s pointed put, you can't be more wrong than that. Those three languages belong to three very different language families. There aren't even very many borrowings between them.

From my study, I think that Sumerian came from early contact with Sanskrit.

Sumerian had died 1000 years before the first traces of Sanskrit that we know of.

As far as we know, the familes of languages that I am familiar with have their commof roots in Sanskrit:

NOT ONE language, anywhere or anytime, has its root in Sanskrit. Modern Indian languages, for example, are descendants of "Vedic Prakrits"; at most these are sister languages to Sanskrit. There are no links at all from Sanskrit to languages outside of India.

Sanskrit - Sumerian / Akkadian (these folks were not very noble, and the political situation caused their language to die out execptionally quick IMO)- Hebrew/Aramic - Greek (several families here Ionic, Doric, Attic)- Latin - then the Romance Languages

What utter nonsense! Sumerian died after some 2000 years. Akkadian: about 3000 years. Sanskrit: 1500 years (or 2600 years and still living, if you believe in Indian censuses). Exceptionally quick? And Greek and Latin are not the descendants of any of the five previously mentioned languages.

The Germanic peoples IMO corrupted Latin/early Roman script and some vocab and other influences beyond all recognition and pervered it to create the Germanic languages: German, English, and other yucky languages that have not the accuracy and beauty of Greek and Latin. It is a miracle that folks with such poor language could conquer and survive IMHO.

Where's the corruption? The Latin alphabet was cleverly adapted to other languages, like it had been adapted from the Greek alphabet which was calqued on one ore more Semitic scripts. That's ingeniousness, not corruption.

Greek and Latin have almost as ridiculous structures as Sanskrit. The number of forms for a single verb stem is just crazy and perfectly unnecessary. A verb in Sanskrit may have 720 different forms. Compare that to the English of Chaucer and Shakespeare, not exactly a poor language, eh? Very few verb forms, just two cases for nouns, and English can express as much as any other language. And still, English has some way to go before attaining the perfection of Chinese: Only one form for any verb, only one form for any noun, and yet, there is Chinese literature and poetry unrivalled by anything in any language.

Your post makes me think of Hartman's Law of Prescriptivist Retaliation: "any article or statement about correct grammar, punctuation, or spelling is bound to contain at least one eror", despite the fact that I find it dificult to identofy one correct statement in what you wrote.


PW: I regard the quipu thing more as a mnemonic device than writing. AFAIK, it can't be unambiguously transferred to speech.

 

[Damien Bishop]

Wow, alot of great info here. Yes, Sumerian is the first we know of.....which still doesnt make sense to me, only being like 5000 years old or so. SOmeone mentioned the language of Sumer being nonexistatn, or that its only a theory. Ibve heard the same thing, though it was written on thousands of clay tablets, the "spoken" language is what they were unsure of, though they did have a spoken language, as why would anyone have a written language and not having spoken it first. I hear alot of theories too about India and Sanskrit, some scholars suggest that Indian Civilization is older than Sumerian, I havent seen any evidence to corroborate this, but I heard it more than once.