LDS Prophets... Who, Why, How?

[Katzpur]

For Buttercup, since she asked. (Apologies for the wordiness. I have not yet mastered the art of brevity.)

How is a Latter-day Saint Prophet appointed? What qualifies him and how must he demonstrate that He is truly capable of communicating with God?

We have a saying in our Church that God doesn’t call the qualified, He qualifies the called. There weren’t “tryouts” for prophet back in Old Testament times, and nobody auditioned to be one of Jesus’ Apostles. God is perfectly and absolutely aware of who, among all His children, is worthy to speak on His behalf to the members of His Church.

Some background…

We believe that, in addition to Noah, Abraham, Moses and other Old Testament prophets, the Apostle Peter was also a prophet. If you will recall, Jesus told Peter it was His intention to give him “the keys to the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 16:19) In other words, as the senior Apostle, he was to lead the Church Christ established in His absence. He would be the prophet through whom the Lord would continue to lead His followers after His ascension into Heaven. As you know, the Catholic Church believes that its Pope can trace His right to the Papacy all the way back to Peter. We, of course, don’t believe that to be the case.

We believe instead that the line of authority was broken from the very beginning, and that not even the first Pope was the individual God had in mind to succeed Peter. This gets us into the subject of the Apostasy Paul prophesied would take place – which I hope will not become the subject of this thread! We believe that after Peter’s death, there were no more prophets on the earth for roughly 1800 years, even though the Bible tells us that Christ built His Church on a foundation of Prophets and Apostles. As you may or may not know, we believe that God the Father and Jesus Christ personally appeared to Joseph Smith in answer to his prayer to know which of all the competing churches he should join. We believe that He was later called by God to restore the ancient Church and to receive the keys that were taken from the earth with the death of Peter and the other Apostles.

Today the Church is led by a quorum of twelve Apostles, each of whom can trace his authority to preside back to the ultimate Head of the Church – Jesus Christ. (I can explain this is greater detail, if you’d like.) When an Apostle dies, the prophet, his two counselors, and the remaining eleven Apostles gather together in the temple, talk, pray and decide upon a new individual to take the place of the deceased member of the Quorum. Throughout the years, each Apostle ultimately either moves forward in seniority or dies first. When the Prophet dies, the keys of authority (the same ones once held by Peter) are passed, first, to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (collectively) and then, once they have received spiritual confirmation that this is God’s will, to the senior member of the Quorum. He then becomes the new Prophet. God has already given His seal of approval to His new spokesperson; He essentially did that back when the Prophet was first called to the Apostleship.

 

[Buttercup]

Today the Church is led by a quorum of twelve Apostles, each of whom can trace his authority to preside back to the ultimate Head of the Church – Jesus Christ.

Thanks so much Kathryn for starting this thread. Should be interesting.

First question: Could you further explain the sentence above? How can this authority be traced?

 

[Katzpur]

[/b]
Thanks so much Kathryn for starting this thread. Should be interesting.

First question: Could you further explain the sentence above? How can this authority be traced?

Okay, I intentionally left this out because I knew it would be sort of involved to explain.

Jesus Christ ordained Peter, James and John to the Apostleship back when He was on earth (along with the other Apostles). We don't believe the keys of priesthood authority they had were ever passed on to any other human beings, even though Christ had intended that His Church continue to function until His Second Coming on a foundation of Prophets and Apostles.

We believe that the resurrected Apostles -- Peter, James and John -- personally appeared to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery (his friend, and the person who was acting as Joseph's scribe during the process of translating the Book of Mormon), ordained them to the Melchizedek Priesthood. They conferred upon Joseph the office of Apostle. Joseph Smith, holding the office of Apostle, subsequently ordained Oliver, Martin Harris and David Whitmer. (These three men, incidentally, recorded their testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon in the front of the book. It states, in part, "We declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true.")

Obviously, you don't buy into any of that. I realize that it would be difficult for you to. At any rate, as the years went by, these men ordained others (according to the process I already discribed). Therefore, our Prophet today, can trace his authority back through probably about six to eight individuals, each having been given the authority by someone who already held it, to Jesus Christ.

 

[Buttercup]

Ahhh, I see. Thanks for explaining. I wasn't sure if you meant traced through ancestral lineage genetically or appointed tracing. Makes sense.

No other denomination of Christianity has a continuing line of prophets. Do you think that Christ meant only for the LDS division of Christianity to have living apostles? And how are these apostles different than let's say, a pastor in your individual church? Do these apostles preach?

 

[Katzpur]

Ahhh, I see. Thanks for explaining. I wasn't sure if you meant traced through ancestral lineage genetically or appointed tracing. Makes sense.

No other denomination of Christianity has a continuing line of prophets. Do you think that Christ meant only for the LDS division of Christianity to have living apostles?

Well, He established "one Church," not 30,000 churches. No two Christian denominations teach exactly the same doctrines. Consequently, no two can both be teaching with 100% accuracy. We don't believe that Jesus would authorize two organizations that taught opposing or contradictory doctrines to both hold the keys of authority.

And how are these apostles different than let's say, a pastor in your individual church?

We have a lay ministry, for starters. Our bishops (who lead each individual congregation) are called to serve for a period of about five years. They are essentially responsible for the spiritual and temporal welfare of from 300 - 500 people during that period of time and put in well over 30 hours each week in service to these people. They are not paid a dime for this service, but hold full-time jobs at the same time. I have had bishops who were bankers, lawyers, television newsmen, professional genealogists, etc. The bishop does not prepare a sermon each week. Instead, a different member of the congregation (or another congregation nearby) is asked to do so.

Do these apostles preach?

Yes, they do. They preach constantly, throughout the year, as special guests at "Stake Conferences." (A "Stake Conference" is a gathering of about six separate congregations, which is held twice a year.) The main time we hear many of them speak is at our Church's Semi-annual General Conference which, coincidentally, is taking place next weekend. The Prophet, President Gordon B. Hinckley will also speak at this two-day event. It's broadcast to about 160 nations, I believe.

 

[Buttercup]

Well, He established "one Church," not 30,000 churches. No two Christian denominations teach exactly the same doctrines. Consequently, no two can both be teaching with 100% accuracy. We don't believe that Jesus would authorize two organizations that taught opposing or contradictory doctrines to both hold the keys of authority.

So are you saying that any other denomination of Christianity is teaching wrong doctrine basically?

We have a lay ministry, for starters. Our bishops (who lead each individual congregation) are called to serve for a period of about five years. They are essentially responsible for the spiritual and temporal welfare of from 300 - 500 people during that period of time and put in well over 30 hours each week in service to these people. They are not paid a dime for this service, but hold full-time jobs at the same time. I have had bishops who were bankers, lawyers, television newsmen, professional genealogists, etc. The bishop does not prepare a sermon each week. Instead, a different member of the congregation (or another congregation nearby) is asked to do so.

Oh wow Kat. This is very cool. I like this idea alot....wonderful. So at each congregation you have a bishop...that's the equivalent of a pastor/preacher right?

Yes, they do. They preach constantly, throughout the year, as special guests at "Stake Conferences." (A "Stake Conference" is a gathering of about six separate congregations, which is held twice a year.) The main time we hear many of them speak is at our Church's Semi-annual General Conference which, coincidentally, is taking place next weekend. The Prophet, President Gordon B. Hinckley will also speak at this two-day event. It's broadcast to about 160 nations, I believe.

Are these prophets paid a salary then? If so, do you have any idea how much? Who else is paid in the LDS organization? The Bishops aren't but is anyone else at the congregation level?

I hope these aren't too personal of questions. It's just that things work very differently with the LDS and I'm finding it quite interesting.

 

[Bishka]

Oh wow Kat. This is very cool. I like this idea alot....wonderful. So at each congregation you have a bishop...that's the equivalent of a pastor/preacher right?

Yep. That's absoltuley right

Are these prophets paid a salary then? If so, do you have any idea how much?

Nope, I believe if they did not have enough money when the became a prophet (99.9% do) they are provided with enough to get by, no more then that.

Who else is paid in the LDS organization? The Bishops aren't but is anyone else at the congregation level?

Nobody -- well except some seminary teachers (teaches high school students the gospel) -- and that is out of Church time, usually 5 AM in the morning.

 

[DeepShadow]

So are you saying that any other denomination of Christianity is teaching wrong doctrine basically?

For the most part, we'd say that the doctrine of other churches isn't "incorrect" as much as it is "incomplete." I think an apostle said that...but then I've already misquoted one today...so I'm going to be a little more cautious.

Oh wow Kat. This is very cool. I like this idea alot....wonderful. So at each congregation you have a bishop...that's the equivalent of a pastor/preacher right?

For the most part, but they usually assign others to speak in church rather than do it all themselves.

Are these prophets paid a salary then? If so, do you have any idea how much? Who else is paid in the LDS organization? The Bishops aren't but is anyone else at the congregation level?

The prophets and Apostles live the law of consecration--that is, they donate all their assets to the church, and are then allotted a modest living allowance. I don't know how much it is, but it's a comfortable living.

Church positions that are actually paid are rare. Here are all the ones I can think of:

Custodial staff (around 1 trained person per building; laypeople volunteer to make up the rest of the manpower)
Church Educational System (CES) employees--all release-time and some early-morning seminary teachers, depending upon the state. The upper-level positions of CES are also paid, but that's really because this is a business with the LDS church as its only client.
...I'm drawing a blank on the rest...

 

[Buttercup]

Well, so far I am very impressed. I think not paying any staff of the LDS organization certainly keeps financial scandal from wrecking havoc like it has through so many TV evangelists or other Christian orgs.

Thanks for your answers so far, folks. My initial thoughts were that the apostles were in it for the money and could somehow wiggle their way in with false claims of piety. I'm sorry for thinking that.

I don't have any particular question at the moment but am just generally curious about the role of a prophet and revelations.

 

[Bishka]

Thanks for your answers so far, folks. My initial thoughts were that the apostles were in it for the money and could someone wiggle their way in with false claims of piety. I'm sorry for thinking that.
.

That's okay, I know a lot of people who think that. *Sigh*

 

[Katzpur]

Well, so far I am very impressed. I think not paying any staff of the LDS organization certainly keeps financial scandal from wrecking havoc like it has through so many TV evangelists or other Christian orgs.

Thanks for your answers so far, folks. My initial thoughts were that the apostles were in it for the money and could somehow wiggle their way in with false claims of piety. I'm sorry for thinking that.

Actually, most of them lose money when the are called as Apostles. One was a renowned heart surgeon, another a Utah Supreme Court Justice, one had a doctorate degree in educational Administration, one was senior vice president for fight operations for Lufthansa Airlines. Right in the middle of these careers, they are asked to accept a calling that will change their live till the day they die. The way they live as Apostles is nothing in comparison with how they'd been living.

Basically, nothing on the local level is paid for. The bishops, his counselors, all of the teachers (for 3-year-olds up to adults), the chorister and the organist all donate their time. What really shocks people is finding out the the 360 people in the Mormon Tabernacle Choir pay all of there own expenses, traveling for as much as 30-40 miles twice a week to Salt Lake to practice and then a performance every single solitary Sunday. They don't get paid at all to do this, and yet hundred more than can join are waiting in the ranks for their turn.

There are people who work in the Church Office Building in downtown Salt Lake City, who are paid a salary. There are accountants, translators, IT staff, purchasing department, music departments, building facitities management, and dozend of other departments where church members work for a salary. But at the local ward, everyone has a calling doing something and nobody gets paid.

 

[Katzpur]

One quick thing I hadn't mentioned. Our Prophet is now 95 years old. He is finally starting to show some signs of age, but his mind is still as clear as can be. Imagine having to go to work every day at age 95! Anyway, he is dearly loved by all the members of the church, and my most outside of the Church who know him. We just don't want him to ever die! But, when he does die, the man who will most likely succeed him as Prophet is Thomas S. Monson. Thomas Monson was my uncle's closest friend growing up and they are still very good friends. My husband and I were married in the Salt Lake Temple 36 years ago, and guess who performed the wedding ceremony? Thomas S. Monson! So there will come a time, in the not-too-distant-future when I can say I was married by a Prophet.

 

[Buttercup]

Basically, nothing on the local level is paid for. The bishops, his counselors, all of the teachers (for 3-year-olds up to adults), the chorister and the organist all donate their time. What really shocks people is finding out the the 360 people in the Mormon Tabernacle Choir pay all of there own expenses, traveling for as much as 30-40 miles twice a week to Salt Lake to practice and then a performance every single solitary Sunday. They don't get paid at all to do this, and yet hundred more than can join are waiting in the ranks for their turn.

That is just amazing. I never even considered the fact that they paid their own expenses. Pure dedication that is!

There are people who work in the Church Office Building in downtown Salt Lake City, who are paid a salary. There are accountants, translators, IT staff, purchasing department, music departments, building facitities management, and dozend of other departments where church members work for a salary. But at the local ward, everyone has a calling doing something and nobody gets paid.

This all makes sense. So what is the 10% tithing money used for besides this? Building upkeep? Sure seems like there would be a lot left over.

 

[Buttercup]

One quick thing I hadn't mentioned. Our Prophet is now 95 years old. He is finally starting to show some signs of age, but his mind is still as clear as can be. Imagine having to go to work every day at age 95! Anyway, he is dearly loved by all the members of the church, and my most outside of the Church who know him. We just don't want him to ever die! But, when he does die, the man who will most likely succeed him as Prophet is Thomas S. Monson. Thomas Monson was my uncle's closest friend growing up and they are still very good friends. My husband and I were married in the Salt Lake Temple 36 years ago, and guess who performed the wedding ceremony? Thomas S. Monson! So there will come a time, in the not-too-distant-future when I can say I was married by a Prophet.

Oh I see....there's only one prophet? Where can I read more about this man? Thanks again, Kat!

 

[Bishka]

This all makes sense. So what is the 10% tithing money used for besides this? Building upkeep? Sure seems like there would be a lot left over.

Building upkeep, temple construction (they are expensive), and some other things - but don't just yet quote me on that.

 

[Bishka]

Oh I see....there's only one prophet? Where can I read more about this man? Thanks again, Kat!

One prophet at a time.

We've had 15 in this dispensation.

Here's a link about President Hinckley

 

[Buttercup]

One prophet at a time.

We've had 15 in this dispensation.

Here's a link about President Hinckley

Oh the prophet is also the president...gotcha! Thanks for the link, Becky.

 

[Bishka]

Oh the prophet is also the president...gotcha! Thanks for the link, Becky.

Yes. Yet the terms president and prophet may not be used synonmously at all times -- usually they are, but sometimes not.

For example, Thomas S. Monson will automatically be in line next for President of the Church -- but he will not be prophet until he is given the keys and sustained by the Church.

I hope that made some sense.

 

[Katzpur]

So what is the 10% tithing money used for besides this? Building upkeep? Sure seems like there would be a lot left over.

Hi, Rhonda.

By far, the largest portion of the tithing funds goes towards construction and maintenance of chapels, temples and other places of worship. For instance, in 2002 (the last year for which I have been able to find any figures), there were over 500 chapels and other church buildings under construction. Those numbers probably are probably pretty representative of what's happening today. The Church has a policy it adheres to very, very strictly. We never dedicate a new building of any kind or start using it until it is paid for in full. This is even true of the Conference Center completed in 2002 in Salt Lake City. I don't know what it cost to build, but the Conference Center covers 1.4 million square feet and seats 21,200 people in its main auditorium. It was paid for in full long before it was ever completed.

The Church also operates a huge educational system, including Brigham Young University (with campuses in Utah, Idaho and Hawaii), LDS Business College, seminaries and institutes of religion and Church schools in other countries. Obviously, the cost of operating a university has got to be enormous.

Tithing funds also go towards written materials in dozens of languages and the global administration of the Church. The basic Church curriculum is available today in 157 languages. That's a lot of copies of the Bible and the Book of Mormon. Plus, a certain portion of our Sunday worship services are standardized for all congregations around the world. In other words, on any given Sunday, it wouldn't matter whether you were attending church in Salt Lake City, in La Paz, Bolivia or Moscow, Russia. Two hours out of the three you spent in church would be the using the same exact lesson materials, regardless of where in the world you were. Since lesson manuals are available free of charge for all adult members of the Church (total membership is now over 12 million), you can imagine the expense involved there.

The Church has some commercial properties and investments. The money it makes from these is used contribute towards community arts, education, charitable groups (apart from the Church's own), and local community causes.

One thing tithing does not pay for are the expenses incurred by the the 50,000+ missionaries who serve full-time eighteen-month and two-year missions for the Church. They pay their own way.

 

[Buttercup]

Hey Kathryn....is that the name you preferred to be called?

I knew that Mormons had a very organized monetary system but had no idea it was as efficient as it is.

How do the potential missionaries know how much their mission will cost?