Left Hand Path?

[Liu]

Are we debating this here, as asked not to do by a moderator?

You were the one who continued here.
And admittedly I assumed that this thread was in the debates section due to its content - only noticed it after posting that it isn't and therefore asked the moderator in the other thread for this thread to be moved there.

 

[EtuMalku]

You were the one who continued here.

Wrong, I wasn't continuing that conversation if I were I would have quoted you or Kapalika. I was adding to this thread since it was on my mind. You're the one who is concerned with debating this, as far as I'm concerned, there is no debate.

 

[Liu]

Wrong, I wasn't continuing that conversation if I were I would have quoted you or Kapalika. I was adding to this thread since it was on my mind. You're the one who is concerned with debating this, as far as I'm concerned, there is no debate.

Whatever. Due to the timing I got a different impression, sorry about that.

Would you then kindly answer my questions on your thoughts? I've now posted my comment I left here in the other thread because it fits there better for the most part, but feel free to address different parts of it in either thread as seems fit to you.

 

[tayla]

RHP: Subscribing to a pre-defined moral system.
LHP: Basing your morals on your own, scrutinized, convictions, or being amoral.

I guess over the years I changed from nothing to LHP to RHP back to LHP.

 

[EtuMalku]

You are aware that these migrations are also the root of Hinduism and therefore ultimately also the eastern LHP?

Left-Handed Hinduism developed from the religion that the Aryans brought to India with them in about 1500 BC. . . . so, it is not as old.

why would you say that the LHP is opposed to melding with a deity? Not only in the eastern LHP it's commonly the goal, but also in anticosmic Satanism, and depending on what you mean by deity it's even in e.g. Setianism because the deity one wants to become one with there is one's true self (which is also a common notion in the eastern LHP and in less literal interpretations of anticosmic Satanism).

I said the Western LHP 'is opposed to melding with a deity'. I won't even comment on anything O9A or 'Misanthropic'. Setian philosophy does not involve atonement with any deity (Set).

And if we take into account the RHP (be it Christianity or Hinduism), if it's not mysticism (which in itself is quite LHPy in my opinion) it's normally not about melding with the deity whatsoever, on the contrary, most would consider that notion sacrilege.

• Eastern Right Hand Path: follow a set blueprint in order to unite and dissolve the personal Self into the All.
• Western Right Hand Path: follow a set blueprint in order to enter the afterlife of a specific deity/deities, and remain submissive to them.

Just because Stephen Flowers says so doesn't make it true. Also, that book's over 250 pages long, so if you want me to re-read the parts to see in which context they were written please tell which pages or chapter you paraphrased it from.

Stephen Flowers is not the only person saying this. I have no intention of guiding you through Lords of the Left Hand Path.

 

[Liu]

Left-Handed Hinduism developed from the religion that the Aryans brought to India with them in about 1500 BC. . . . so, it is not as old.

Still Hinduism is attested much earlier than Germanic religion, so we could assume it to be probably closer to original Indo-European religion, at least in some aspects.

I said the Western LHP 'is opposed to melding with a deity'. I won't even comment on anything O9A or 'Misanthropic'. Setian philosophy does not involve atonement with any deity (Set).

Fair enough if you wanna ignore a huge section of the LHP, and the anticosmics were only meant as one example.

Setianism is about recognizing and developing one's own divine essence. So in that way it's about melding with one's concept of deity. Not metaphysically of course, but huge sections of the LHP are atheistic/metaphoric anyway.

• Eastern Right Hand Path: follow a set blueprint in order to unite and dissolve the personal Self into the All.

That's specific to Buddhism and forms of Hinduism, not specific to the RHP.

• Western Right Hand Path: follow a set blueprint in order to enter the afterlife of a specific deity/deities, and remain submissive to them.

Fair enough.

To summarize:
RHP = Follow a set blueprint.
On that we can agree I suppose.
EDIT: Except that also an LHPer is free to follow a set blueprint if they consider it helpful - we just aren't bound to it and follow it out of ulterior motives, not because we'd consider it to be infalsible.

 

[EtuMalku]

Still Hinduism is attested much earlier than Germanic religion, so we could assume it to be probably closer to original Indo-European religion, at least in some aspects.

But not Vamachara, Tantra, and Shaivism.

Fair enough if you wanna ignore a huge section of the LHP, and the anticosmics were only meant as one example.

I do, I have no rerspect for ONA or any of their subsidiaries.

Setianism is about recognizing and developing one's own divine essence. So in that way it's about melding with one's concept of deity. Not metaphysically of course, but huge sections of the LHP are atheistic/metaphoric anyway.

I am an ex-Setian (are you?) and No, you are wrong.

That's specific to Buddhism and forms of Hinduism, not specific to the RHP.

I'm confident in the theory behind Perennial Philosophy:
Perennial philosophy is the understanding that all the world's 'RHP' religions share a single, universal doctrine. This doctrine posits that the highest good that human life can achieve is through the union with a Supreme Being / Energy of the Universe.

The way in which this is achieved is through the deception of one's conscious awareness into believing that one has been accepted by this Supreme Being / Energy otherwise known as the objective universe.

 

[Liu]

But not Vamachara, Tantra, and Shaivism.

Yes, but that still doesn't mean a thing regarding your claim of Odinism being more LHP than the Vamachara.

I do, I have no rerspect for ONA or any of their subsidiaries.

I don't have much sympathies for the ONA either. Too much drama.
Wouldn't equate anticosmics with the ONA, though. Some relations, but in my impression most anticosmics are not ONA nor the other way round.

I am an ex-Setian (are you?) and No, you are wrong.

Never been a Setian as I don't buy into their theology. Otherwise got much respect for that path, though.

Well, I now see that I expressed some parts of my explanation a bit ambigiously, so you might have misunderstood something in it.
To clarify this, in which way do you think I'm wrong?

I'm confident in the theory behind Perennial Philosophy

I'm not.

 

[EtuMalku]

Yes, but that still doesn't mean a thing regarding your claim of Odinism being more LHP than the Vamachara.

For one, it wasn't my claim, it was paraphrased from Flowers' Lords of the Left Hand Path book. Odinism is an ancient example of the Western LHP, Odin is a prominently mentioned god throughout the recorded history of the Germanic peoples, from the Roman occupation of regions of Germania through the tribal expansions of the Migration Period and the Viking Age.

What is essential to realize about the Western LHP aspects of ancient Odinism, unlike its Eastern counterparts, is that it provided a traditional, established method of self-transformation along a divine model without an intended melding with that god.

I don't have much sympathies for the ONA either. Too much drama.Wouldn't equate anticosmics with the ONA, though. Some relations, but in my impression most anticosmics are not ONA nor the other way round.

The Misanthropic Luciferian Order later renamed the Temple of the Black Light, holds little interest for me as I do not see eye to eye with their philosophies and do not find them WLHP whatsoever.

. . . in which way do you think I'm wrong?
I'm not.

Rather broad of a question isn't it?

 

[1137]

Hmm... It's Etu who is wrong on Setianism. Just because we do not "meld with" Set we do strive to be Set-like. At least, I do. And being Set-like includes individuation, which leads to the LHP. I used to believe the East paths never involved such individuation but this is simply wrong. In fact many with Eastern leanings are drawn towards the LHP as we practice it. This seems especially common with Hinduism.

Arguably LaVeyan Satanism is about melding with nature and it basically founded the WLHP. LaVey goes on and on about giving into your nature and Satan being an aspect of nature - this is the exact opposite of Setianism, and not in line with the LHP as I practice it.

Also, ignoring things like the ONA doesn't make them go away, especially since we all know besides a few criminals that the ONA is mostly edge mixed with some lovecraft, a fascinating system if you ask me.

 

[EtuMalku]

Hmm... It's Etu who is wrong on Setianism. Just because we do not "meld with" Set we do strive to be Set-like. At least, I do. And being Set-like includes individuation, which leads to the LHP. I used to believe the East paths never involved such individuation but this is simply wrong. In fact many with Eastern leanings are drawn towards the LHP as we practice it. This seems especially common with Hinduism.

Arguably LaVeyan Satanism is about melding with nature and it basically founded the WLHP. LaVey goes on and on about giving into your nature and Satan being an aspect of nature - this is the exact opposite of Setianism, and not in line with the LHP as I practice it.

Also, ignoring things like the ONA doesn't make them go away, especially since we all know besides a few criminals that the ONA is mostly edge mixed with some lovecraft, a fascinating system if you ask me.

You're usually more coherent than this, but this post is all over the map.I don't even know where to start addressing it. Where did I state anything regarding Setian philosophy other than "Setian philosophy does not involve atonement with any deity (Set)."?

LaVey's Satanism did not found the WLHP, and if it were about 'melding' with nature then it certainly would not be a WLHP.

I find much of ONA's material confusing, unnecessarily complex, and just self-defeating. Simply observe the shining examples it has brought forth (sarcasm)

 

[Liu]

For one, it wasn't my claim, it was paraphrased from Flowers' Lords of the Left Hand Path book. Odinism is an ancient example of the Western LHP, Odin is a prominently mentioned god throughout the recorded history of the Germanic peoples, from the Roman occupation of regions of Germania through the tribal expansions of the Migration Period and the Viking Age.

What is essential to realize about the Western LHP aspects of ancient Odinism, unlike its Eastern counterparts, is that it provided a traditional, established method of self-transformation along a divine model without an intended melding with that god.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_Age
Traditional and established? Doesn't sound very LHPy to me xD

I've read quite a bit of Old Norse literature in the original and there was not much in it that reminded me of the LHP or any concept of self-deification - found more of that in Latin texts thus far. Sure, some parts could be considered being about creating one's own destiny, but there was hardly anything relating that to spirituality, let alone to following a divine model. And the few religious texts that are attested are hard to interpret, in part edited/written by Christians, and/or fairly late. So please be more specific instead of just linking me to Wikipedia articles.

Nah, perhaps there is some further info on that in Flowers' book but for the moment I got tons of other stuff to read before digging into that one again. Don't even have it with me atm.

Rather broad of a question isn't it?

Not broader than your claim that I'm wrong on which this question was directed.

I find much of ONA's material confusing, unnecessarily complex, and just self-defeating. Simply observe the shining examples it has brought forth (sarcasm)

Can't really disagree but that doesn't mean they should be fully ignored.

No offense but you slowly start giving me the impression that your WLHP is no LHP after all if you are a typical representative of it.
Appeal to an authority/book - check.
Considering some denominations not part of your religion and therefore irrelevant because of personal disagreements with their beliefs - check.
More trust in your own dogma than in counter-arguments - check.
Conclusion: The WHLP is a RHP! Now it all makes sense!

Arguably LaVeyan Satanism is about melding with nature and it basically founded the WLHP. LaVey goes on and on about giving into your nature and Satan being an aspect of nature - this is the exact opposite of Setianism, and not in line with the LHP as I practice it.

I'm certainly not a LaVeyan, but I believe the subconscious to be both part of nature and that out of which all of one's personality is derived. Therefore there is no individuation without working with one's nature-aspects, the borders are fluent and it's all interrelated.
Probably rather a question of metaphysics and concepts and not of goal or methods, though.

 

[EtuMalku]

Traditional and established? Doesn't sound very LHPy to me xD

I never claimed that part of it was, however that is neither here nor there.

I've read quite a bit of Old Norse literature in the original and there was not much in it that reminded me of the LHP or any concept of self-deification - found more of that in Latin texts thus far. Sure, some parts could be considered being about creating one's own destiny, but there was hardly anything relating that to spirituality, let alone to following a divine model. And the few religious texts that are attested are hard to interpret, in part edited/written by Christians, and/or fairly late. So please be more specific instead of just linking me to Wikipedia articles.

Find better books/papers/material .. . what can I say?

No offense but you slowly start giving me the impression that your WLHP is no LHP after all if you are a typical representative of it.

No offense taken.

Conclusion: The WHLP is a RHP! Now it all makes sense!

Perhaps to you, but not to myself and the thousands of other adherents who are onboard with everything I am talking about.

I'm certainly not a LaVeyan, but I believe the subconscious to be both part of nature and that out of which all of one's personality is derived. Therefore there is no individuation without working with one's nature-aspects, the borders are fluent and it's all interrelated.
Probably rather a question of metaphysics and concepts and not of goal or methods, though.

You don't have to be a LaVeyan Satanist to be utterly incorrect, which you are.

 

[Liu]

Okay, if you have no further arguments to give then I guess we can only agree to disagree. A pity, I was hoping to get a bit more than that out of this discussion.

 

[EtuMalku]

Okay, if you have no further arguments to give then I guess we can only agree to disagree. A pity, I was hoping to get a bit more than that out of this discussion.

What was it you were hoping for?

 

[Liu]

What was it you were hoping for?

An actual argument-supported discussion of what constitutes the LHP instead of a mere exchange of opinions. Testing the validity of my own definitions and assumptions. Learning about other approaches to the LHP. But it's no fun continuing to present arguments if all you do is saying "you are wrong" and claiming the opposite without proofs. So I guess that means I don't need to take your position serious and can rest assured that mine is more likely to be valid.

 

[EtuMalku]

An actual argument-supported discussion of what constitutes the LHP instead of a mere exchange of opinions. Testing the validity of my own definitions and assumptions. Learning about other approaches to the LHP. But it's no fun continuing to present arguments if all you do is saying "you are wrong" and claiming the opposite without proofs. So I guess that means I don't need to take your position serious and can rest assured that mine is more likely to be valid.

If I haven't, over the last few years, presented more philosophy and definition of what the WLHP is and is not than any other person . . . I give up.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

I must admit to being mysified by the usage of LHP in the West — I understand what it means in Hinduism.

Those who emphasise the importance of self-development could be describing most polytheism. If followers of Odin are LHP, then what of followers of Zeus? Nor was the worship of Set seen as anomalous in Ancient Egypt, where he was regarded as their patron deity by the Ramessid dynasty. Reading the web-sites of theistic satanists, I feel much more at home theologically than I  do with Wiccans.

Historically, the terms LHP and RHP were introduced in the West by Blavatsky, who contrasted her "respectable" RHP magic with the old "demonic" LHP of the grimoires. Even Crowley claimed to be RHP, I believe. The positive use of LHP started in my life-time (although that goes back some way!)

 

[EtuMalku]

The Western Left Hand Path Defined

 

[EtuMalku]

I must admit to being mysified by the usage of LHP in the West — I understand what it means in Hinduism.

Those who emphasise the importance of self-development could be describing most polytheism. If followers of Odin are LHP, then what of followers of Zeus? Nor was the worship of Set seen as anomalous in Ancient Egypt, where he was regarded as their patron deity by the Ramessid dynasty. Reading the web-sites of theistic satanists, I feel much more at home theologically than I  do with Wiccans.

Historically, the terms LHP and RHP were introduced in the West by Blavatsky, who contrasted her "respectable" RHP magic with the old "demonic" LHP of the grimoires. Even Crowley claimed to be RHP, I believe. The positive use of LHP started in my life-time (although that goes back some way!)

Read the thread back further, we covered all of this already and I am talking about the Western LHP not what is considered the Hindu LHP