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Legality of polygamy

firedragon

Veteran Member
In a lot of countries due to an old UN intrusion the country would have a different law for religious minorities. In some countries it goes for even minority races. In places like India the so called "low caste" would get some government benefits the so called "higher caste" would not get. Some of them are a bit jealous. This kind of different systems exist in many countries, in many circumstances.

This particular thread is to explore the morality or the sensibility or what ever angle you would like to look at, the legality of polygamy.

Typically this would be polygeny because we are addressing Islam directly, and it is wide spread, global, and various countries with lets say, "secular laws", like India, England, etc would have a different law for non-muslims where polygamy is illegal, unlike muslims, and that polyandry is out of the question.

I remember reading some stats about India where thought Muslims are given the right to polygamy, non-muslims in India have polygamous marriages far more than muslims. But, the question is, is it fair to give muslims one law, and the rest of the community another law. Some of the Buddhist countries in Asia have been murderously against this law calling it discrimination towards the Buddhist majority. Some Buddhist monks have engaged in creating riots over these kind of things which developed into lynching and killing of several people including a child of 9. That is, ignoring Myanmar. So the bottomline is, the sentiment of discrimination seems to linger in the majority of these countries where the minority muslims are given the right to have polygamous marriages. Some have suggested that this could be a jealousy, but there is no real evidence that every one in a country like England wishes to marry more than one lady. So if there is a jealousy in this counting, it could be with some very rich guy or an underworld don who wishes to have a small harem. And anyway that could be achieved easily with no law needed. So all of these theories seem lame. Is it fair to let the minority Muslims have a different law allowing polygeny or is it their right to have it?

What do you think of this situation? How do you judge this situation?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salam

I believe Quran says you have to be just. If you are seeking a second because you are not satisfied with your wife, I believe this injustice. And so Quran reveals in context of helping orphans (marry up to four if you want), but there could be other reasons. However, lust, is never an okay reason in my view.

And also, if the wife doesn't want it and will be hurt by it, I don't think that's just towards her and so if you fear any injustice in any sense of these, you can't do it.

I think the clause "if you fear injustice" has nothing to do with being fair to all of them which is impossible per Quran, it says you can't be just to all of them, but at least... and tells you minimum requirement. I don't think justice here is that minimum requirement, because it's not justice per Quran.

I think justice in this context means you are being justice to your wife, in that, you don't do it if it hurts her nor do it because you are not satisfied with her.

This is my view.

Back then there was lots of widows and many orphans, I can see a wife putting up with another, for sake of helping orphans or taking in widows who might have kids too.

However, I think the clause "if you fear you won't be just" includes if you are in your head doing for lust whether orphans or no orphans, this would be injustice towards your wife.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
What do you think of this situation? How do you judge this situation?
Monogamy laws are intended to improve the previous situation in which lords have rights to impregnate all the females. This creates serious jealousy problems much worse than what you are talking about. Also the achievement of improved social structure has led to a belief that change and improvement is possible, whereas before there was always an established order which came down through nobility there is a new sensation that common sense can be applied to difficult problems to change them.

The happiness of women has been improving over centuries, and this has also improved happiness for men, mostly. There are some caveats and reactions, and nothing is simple. Change is possible; and improvement is possible. Monogamy laws are a degree above what is previous to themselves. I think they also help to prevent women, as a class, from falling into slavery.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I'd stick with how it's currently handled in the West, where it's banned for all. Polygamy is horrible for women, children and young men who aren't able to marry as there aren't enough women available. Monogamous marriage has been demonstrated to have the best outcomes for all three.
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
Salam

I believe Quran says you have to be just. If you are seeking a second because you are not satisfied with your wife, I believe this injustice. And so Quran reveals in context of helping orphans (marry up to four if you want), but there could be other reasons. However, lust, is never an okay reason in my view.

And also, if the wife doesn't want it and will be hurt by it, I don't think that's just towards her and so if you fear any injustice in any sense of these, you can't do it.

I think the clause "if you fear injustice" has nothing to do with being fair to all of them which is impossible per Quran, it says you can't be just to all of them, but at least... and tells you minimum requirement. I don't think justice here is that minimum requirement, because it's not justice per Quran.

I think justice in this context means you are being justice to your wife, in that, you don't do it if it hurts her nor do it because you are not satisfied with her.

This is my view.

Back then there was lots of widows and many orphans, I can see a wife putting up with another, for sake of helping orphans or taking in widows who might have kids too.

However, I think the clause "if you fear you won't be just" includes if you are in your head doing for lust whether orphans or no orphans, this would be injustice towards your wife.

This thread is not about justifying polygeny. Hope you understand.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I don't think you could make polygamy legal for one group of people but not others and call it fair. If a government was going to make this an option, best make it legal for all(including making polyandry legal as well).

Okay. So if the government makes polyandry legal, what then? Muslims generally have no polyandry laws, so, it won't affect them in any way. What do you think?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I think permission of wife is required. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I mean legally required.

Still, this is not about why polygeny is good, bad, or ugly. Do you understand brother? I have not gone into technicalities. If you want I can open another thread to discuss the that. And you are wrong. I dont know any Fikh that says permission of the wife is necessary. But that discussion will just go off the track. Open another thread for that.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you want I can open another thread to discuss the that. And you are wrong. I dont know any Fikh that says permission of the wife is necessary.

Neither do I, but you are saying should polygeny be allowed? I'm saying, okay but with conditions. (1) Permission of wife (2) Some good will for the reason has to be justified to court (taking care orphans for example).

Otherwise, it can be devastating to a wife, kids, etc...

So I'm saying it should be allowed but with conditions.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Neither do I, but you are saying should polygeny be allowed? I'm saying, okay but with conditions. (1) Permission of wife (2) Some good will for the reason has to be justified to court (taking care orphans for example).

Otherwise, it can be devastating to a wife, kids, etc...

So I'm saying it should be allowed but with conditions.

Thats not the topic brother.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
ISo all of these theories seem lame. Is it fair to let the minority Muslims have a different law allowing polygeny or is it their right to have it?

You bring a fair point, but I think without conditions, society can become unbalanced. If it becomes a norm, a significant amount of men won't have women to marry. So it has to be exception to the rule, and that should have some laws that make that the case.

It should never reach a significant amount, because, then too many without opportunity to marry a woman.

I think there is a few people who can be just and marry another not out injustice to their first wife. But outright allowed to marry how many you want with no conditions can cause problems.

If that happens, those guys will do ZINA probably or even see prostitutes or something like that.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
You bring a fair point, but I think without conditions, society can become unbalanced. If it becomes a norm, a significant amount of men won't have women to marry. So it has to be exception to the rule, and that should have some laws that make that the case.

It should never reach a significant amount, because, then too many without opportunity to marry a woman.

I think there is a few people who can be just and marry another not out injustice to their first wife. But outright allowed to marry how many you want with no conditions can cause problems.

If that happens, those guys will do ZINA probably or even see prostitutes or something like that.

So far, I have never come across a single country where "a significant number" have married many women and the other men didnt have women to get married to. never. I mean, I have never come across, any country, in history, ever.

If this is the case, lets say 1% muslims in America get married to four women each, which would be about 12 million, and America has 350 million (e.g.), and 7% of all men are deemed to be homosexual which is about 24 million men who dont marry women, so still, this equation will not work. And that is all the men in America marry four women, which is as impossible as having four suns in our solar system. One physicist maybe able to conceptualise it, but its impossible.

The OP is about something completely different.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I'd stick with how it's currently handled in the West, where it's banned for all. Polygamy is horrible for women, children and young men who aren't able to marry as there aren't enough women available. Monogamous marriage has been demonstrated to have the best outcomes for all three.

In the west its banned for all? How do you define the west? What are the countries you include in it?

Also, do you have any studies for the second statement you made about polygamy being horrible for all and that monogamy brings best outcomes? You maybe right, but is that based on a study?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So far, I have never come across a single country where "a significant number" have married many women and the other men didnt have women to get married to. never. I mean, I have never come across, any country, in history, ever.

If this is the case, lets say 1% muslims in America get married to four women each, which would be about 12 million, and America has 350 million (e.g.), and 7% of all men are deemed to be homosexual which is about 24 million men who dont marry women, so still, this equation will not work. And that is all the men in America marry four women, which is as impossible as having four suns in our solar system. One physicist maybe able to conceptualise it, but its impossible.

The OP is about something completely different.

What if it becomes a fad, 1/20 do it. What then?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Laws have to take account of what ifs. For example, one child policy of China was not prepared that people would kill or abandon female babies, and the population was unbalanced and it caused problems.

You have to predict even if unlikely.
 
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