legalizing in the modern church

[gseeker]

Where does legalism end and Christianity begans? Right and wrong have to exist like Yin and Yang, what determines what is right and what is wrong. If you obey the Torah so many things are considered against the law that about the only way not to sin is to be in a coma. The things we are told not to do in the new testament is much smaller but I hear church leaders saying this and that is idolatry or tattoos are against the Bible because your body is a temple, drugs are bad m'kay but the caffeine in my soda is okay. Pure legalism is all I see anymore and if you try to correct them they say you are causing problems in the church. How can I beloved in Christianity when all I see in the modern church is a legalistic egotistical controlling hypocritical maniacal authoritative money machine?

 

[waitasec]

Where does legalism end and Christianity begans? Right and wrong have to exist like Yin and Yang, what determines what is right and what is wrong. If you obey the Torah so many things are considered against the law that about the only way not to sin is to be in a coma. The things we are told not to do in the new testament is much smaller but I hear church leaders saying this and that is idolatry or tattoos are against the Bible because your body is a temple, drugs are bad m'kay but the caffeine in my soda is okay. Pure legalism is all I see anymore and if you try to correct them they say you are causing problems in the church. How can I beloved in Christianity when all I see in the modern church is a legalistic egotistical controlling hypocritical maniacal authoritative money machine?

once one is aware..in the heart.

 

[InChrist]

Where does legalism end and Christianity begans? Right and wrong have to exist like Yin and Yang, what determines what is right and what is wrong. If you obey the Torah so many things are considered against the law that about the only way not to sin is to be in a coma. The things we are told not to do in the new testament is much smaller but I hear church leaders saying this and that is idolatry or tattoos are against the Bible because your body is a temple, drugs are bad m'kay but the caffeine in my soda is okay. Pure legalism is all I see anymore and if you try to correct them they say you are causing problems in the church. How can I beloved in Christianity when all I see in the modern church is a legalistic egotistical controlling hypocritical maniacal authoritative money machine?

I'd say listening to and following the Word of God and seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit show the distinction between legalism and godly living in the Spirit. You could pray that God would lead you to a different church or group of believers that trust in Christ alone and live by grace.

 

[ChristineES]

Where does legalism end and Christianity begans? Right and wrong have to exist like Yin and Yang, what determines what is right and what is wrong. If you obey the Torah so many things are considered against the law that about the only way not to sin is to be in a coma. The things we are told not to do in the new testament is much smaller but I hear church leaders saying this and that is idolatry or tattoos are against the Bible because your body is a temple, drugs are bad m'kay but the caffeine in my soda is okay. Pure legalism is all I see anymore and if you try to correct them they say you are causing problems in the church. How can I beloved in Christianity when all I see in the modern church is a legalistic egotistical controlling hypocritical maniacal authoritative money machine?

I guess by prayer and by the knowledge that pastors/ministers/preachers are just human beings like the rest of us- they just studied in college theology or whatever. You don't have to worry about pleasing them but pleasing God.

 

[InChrist]

I guess by prayer and by the knowledge that pastors/ministers/preachers are just human beings like the rest of us- they just studied in college theology or whatever. You don't have to worry about pleasing them but pleasing God.

That is a good answer. It is important to keep our eyes on Christ, not others.

 

[Shermana]

Where does legalism end and Christianity begans? Right and wrong have to exist like Yin and Yang, what determines what is right and what is wrong. If you obey the Torah so many things are considered against the law that about the only way not to sin is to be in a coma. The things we are told not to do in the new testament is much smaller but I hear church leaders saying this and that is idolatry or tattoos are against the Bible because your body is a temple, drugs are bad m'kay but the caffeine in my soda is okay. Pure legalism is all I see anymore and if you try to correct them they say you are causing problems in the church. How can I beloved in Christianity when all I see in the modern church is a legalistic egotistical controlling hypocritical maniacal authoritative money machine?

Do you believe that you have to actually obey any rules and teachings of Jesus? Funny you say this, most Christians are against the idea of legalism I've noticed.

So if you don't believe you have to actually obey any of the commandments, does that make you an anti-legalist? Where do you draw the line of which commandments Jesus to follow and where not? Are you saying you can now dishonor your parents? Is there no penalty for adultery either?

The things we are told not to do in the new testament is much smaller

In full context Jesus says to not do anything the Torah already forbids. He wouldn't be Jewish Messiah if he said differently. Jesus made it clear in Matthew 7:22-23 that those who don't do the Will of God are "doers of Lawlessness". He was referring to the same Law in Matthew 5, so doers of Lawlessness means those who go by Theologies that don't involve Mosaic Law, he was essentially attacking anti-legalism by saying "doers of Lawlessness".

Apparently Paul was very legalist as well, he said many people such as unrepentant fornicators won't go to the Kingdom. So what is a "legalist" exactly in your view? Do you think you can ignore any of the parts that say Works are significant in how you are judged?

BTW, Caffeine is probably not really bad for you, the GMO HF Corn Syrup or Aspartame and Acesulfame in your Coke is what's bad for you, I find it interesting how few churches are concerned with eating habits.

 

[gseeker]

Do you believe that you have to actually obey any rules and teachings of Jesus? Funny you say this, most Christians are against the idea of legalism I've noticed.

So if you don't believe you have to actually obey any of the commandments, does that make you an anti-legalist? Where do you draw the line of which commandments Jesus to follow and where not? Are you saying you can now dishonor your parents? Is there no penalty for adultery either?
In full context Jesus says to not do anything the Torah already forbids. He wouldn't be Jewish Messiah if he said differently. Jesus made it clear in Matthew 7:22-23 that those who don't do the Will of God are "doers of Lawlessness". He was referring to the same Law in Matthew 5, so doers of Lawlessness means those who go by Theologies that don't involve Mosaic Law, he was essentially attacking anti-legalism by saying "doers of Lawlessness".

Apparently Paul was very legalist as well, he said many people such as unrepentant fornicators won't go to the Kingdom. So what is a "legalist" exactly in your view? Do you think you can ignore any of the parts that say Works are significant in how you are judged?

BTW, Caffeine is probably not really bad for you, the GMO HF Corn Syrup or Aspartame and Acesulfame in your Coke is what's bad for you, I find it interesting how few churches are concerned with eating habits.

So you are saying as a Christian I am to obey the full law, that I shouldn't eat pork or touch a girl during her time of the month, that I should abide by the full law? Did not Paul get into it with Peter when it came to gentile believers having to obeythe full law? Didn't Christ have to die for our sins because as human beings we are incapable of obeying the law? I also don't think the caffeine issue is about food but is instead about drugs. They seem to believe you shouldn't smoke, that's a sin, idolatry because it is an addiction but caffeine is also very addicting. My responce to that ls that it is actually sorcery from the root Greek word pharmacia. Of course that opens a new question, is drug usage a sin or just drug usage for a religious experience?

 

[Shermana]

So you are saying as a Christian I am to obey the full law, that I shouldn't eat pork or touch a girl during her time of the month, that I should abide by the full law? Did not Paul get into it with Peter when it came to gentile believers having to obeythe full law? Didn't Christ have to die for our sins because as human beings we are incapable of obeying the law? I also don't think the caffeine issue is about food but is instead about drugs. They seem to believe you shouldn't smoke, that's a sin, idolatry because it is an addiction but caffeine is also very addicting. My responce to that ls that it is actually sorcery from the root Greek word pharmacia. Of course that opens a new question, is drug usage a sin or just drug usage for a religious experience?

How about you answer my questions first? As for Sorcery and Pharmakia, it's not referring to natural medicines but more like "Mushroom tea", drugs used in witchcraft and shamanism rituals most likely.

As for Paul vs. Peter, that is part of why I believe Paul is not an authentic apostle.

Why are we "incapable" of obeying the Law exactly? Do you have torrett's syndrome that causes you to stab people when holding a knife? Do you lose all control at the sight of your neighbor's wife?

 

[gseeker]

EI am not speaking of the ten commandments I'm speaking of Jewish law including ritual law. Do you observe the Sabbath on Friday or on Sunday if you observe it at all. You say you don't believe Paul was a true apostle but he is the biggest single contributer to the new testament, if you are picking and choosing what to believe and not to believe in the new testament then you are saying that the word of God is mixed in with useless word of man. Paul out of anyone in the new testament should understand Christ and the completion of the law it would be Paul since he was a a hardcore practitioner of said law.

 

[gseeker]

As for obeying the law I follow Galatians but I don't believe, unlike the modern church, that you should classify everything you are personally against as idolatry.

 

[George-ananda]

Where does legalism end and Christianity begans? Right and wrong have to exist like Yin and Yang, what determines what is right and what is wrong. If you obey the Torah so many things are considered against the law that about the only way not to sin is to be in a coma. The things we are told not to do in the new testament is much smaller but I hear church leaders saying this and that is idolatry or tattoos are against the Bible because your body is a temple, drugs are bad m'kay but the caffeine in my soda is okay. Pure legalism is all I see anymore and if you try to correct them they say you are causing problems in the church. How can I beloved in Christianity when all I see in the modern church is a legalistic egotistical controlling hypocritical maniacal authoritative money machine?

I like the coma joke :clap

Seriously, you will have to find a more liberal religion/denomination or take the 'spiritual but not religious' path and make your own decisions about right/wrong.

 

[gseeker]

I am a part of a "spiritual" church. I'm also not seeking a liberal religion just trying to worship God in a way that pleases Him.The new testament warns against legalism but I do believe the God has set aside a path we are intended to take as his creations. We must seek an understanding of God before we can please him.

 

[Shermana]

EI am not speaking of the ten commandments I'm speaking of Jewish law including ritual law. Do you observe the Sabbath on Friday or on Sunday if you observe it at all. You say you don't believe Paul was a true apostle but he is the biggest single contributer to the new testament, if you are picking and choosing what to believe and not to believe in the new testament then you are saying that the word of God is mixed in with useless word of man. Paul out of anyone in the new testament should understand Christ and the completion of the law it would be Paul since he was a a hardcore practitioner of said law.

Twice in a row you have dodged my simple questions, I wonder why. And yes, I do in fact observe Sabbath Friday to Saturday sundown.

And yes, "God's word" is in fact mixed in with the useless word of man, are you aware there are other bibles with different books too like the Ethiopian Bible? There are also a great deal of issues regarding manuscripts and interpolations and "lost books", canonicity issues have been going on since the beginning. Why isn't that a problem with the Ethiopian Bible? I don't see what Paul writing the majority of NT epistles has anything to do with what is truth.

What do you suppose "Completion of the Law" means? Does "Completion" usually mean "To do away with" or can it usually mean "to perfect and add final touches"? Do you think you are now allowed to commit adultery? Try not to skip that one this time.

 

[gseeker]

I just don't answer redundant rediculous questions. I'm not seeking a reason to sin, I even told you that I obey Galatians in the fruits of the spirit vs the works of the flesh. By choosing to ignore the words of Paul in the doing away of the law for gentile believers then why did Christ die for our sins? You end up ignoring the sacrifice of the son of God by saying that it was unnecessary. And it would be unnecessary if man kind were able to completely live by the law alone.

 

[Shermana]

I just don't answer redundant rediculous questions. I'm not seeking a reason to sin, I even told you that I obey Galatians in the fruits of the spirit vs the works of the flesh. By choosing to ignore the words of Paul in the doing away of the law for gentile believers then why did Christ die for our sins? You end up ignoring the sacrifice of the son of God by saying that it was unnecessary. And it would be unnecessary if man kind were able to completely live by the law alone.

So a simple question of whether you think Adultery is allowed is too redundant and "rediculous" for you to answer? Noted.

 

[gseeker]

Obvious is a better term?

 

[gseeker]

Are you going to answer how you can line upthe sacrifice of Christ if man kind was good enough and competent enough to obtain sanctification through the law? Ill say it plainly spoken for you, adultery is wrong, murder for selfish intent is wrong.

 

[Shermana]

Ill say it plainly spoken for you, adultery is wrong, murder for selfish intent is wrong.

I didn't ask if they were wrong, I asked if they are allowed and if there is a consequence. If they're not allowed, then it's "legalism". I repeat what I said earlier, Paul said that unrepentant fornicators won't enter the Kingdom. That's legalism. Therefore, the NT, both Jesus and Paul, even if they have opposing views on the Law, are nonetheless "legalistic".

how you can line upthe sacrifice of Christ if man kind was good enough and competent enough to obtain sanctification through the law?

Why do you think Jesus said "I have not come for the righteous"? He said he would bring sinners to repentance. What's the point in repenting? Does it matter if you repent or not? Does it matter if you do anything at all?

Now you don't achieve "sanctification" (And I'd like to see what you think that word means and how it applies) by obeying the Law, you get it by not breaking it. Otherwise you'd be allowed to break it. Whether it says it's "Wrong" or not. What does it matter if it's wrong or not in regard to your salvation? Jesus's sacrifice is not a license to break the Law as you please, so what happens if you break the Law and don't repent and continue to do so? What happens to Christian pastors who get caught with another man's wife? Are they just forgiven for their weakness of flesh and that's that?

 

[Rocky S]

Where does legalism end and Christianity begans? Right and wrong have to exist like Yin and Yang, what determines what is right and what is wrong. If you obey the Torah so many things are considered against the law that about the only way not to sin is to be in a coma. The things we are told not to do in the new testament is much smaller but I hear church leaders saying this and that is idolatry or tattoos are against the Bible because your body is a temple, drugs are bad m'kay but the caffeine in my soda is okay. Pure legalism is all I see anymore and if you try to correct them they say you are causing problems in the church. How can I beloved in Christianity when all I see in the modern church is a legalistic egotistical controlling hypocritical maniacal authoritative money machine?

Or the other extreme, live like the devil and you are still a christian. Both extremes are bad, legalism is just as evil as the latter I mentioned. What legalism does is distort the intention and the purpose of the law and makes void the Cross of Christ, in essence saying Jesus finished work is not enough. Like Paul said if you seek to be justified by the law you are fallen from grace.

 

[Shermana]

in essence saying Jesus finished work is not enough.

So do you believe that you can sin and commit adultery as long as you "believe in Jesus's "finished work"? Apparently you must think Paul is pretty "evil" since he says similarly that you have to actually still be a good person and obey a certain guideline.

Like Paul said if you seek to be justified by the law you are fallen from grace.

Paul also said that unrepentant fornicators won't enter the Kingdom. Or people that are even just angry. Is that legalism? Is Paul denying the finished work on the cross? Is Paul saying that justification involves obedience to some standard of action beyond claiming to "believe on" Christ?

legalism is just as evil as the latter I mentioned

So the idea that you have to actually obey the commandments like Jesus taught is evil? Dang Jesus was an evil guy!

Why does 1 Peter say that Salvation is something you "grow into"? Why does Paul say to "work out your salvation in fear and trembling"? Apparently there's more to your salvation involved than just believing in "Christ's finished work". What's "evil" is thinking you think can totally ignore everything Jesus says about your works and behavior being important and just go by a few cherry picked verses that ultimately deny 99% of the things he taught, that would be completely "denying" Jesus.

in essence saying Jesus finished work is not enough

Hebrews 10:26 says that no more sacrifice remains for one who "sins" after receiving knowledge of the truth. The context, in relation to the rest of the Chapter, is not saying that you don't have to do anything, it's saying that you have no more leniency, the sacrifice does not cover your future sins. And what is the definition of "Sin"? 1 John 3:4 is quite clear, "Lawlessness". Who did Jesus say would be rejected in Matthew 7:22-23? "Doers of Lawlessness", that would include all those who call Jesus "Lord" but think that they can ignore obeying what he actually teaches from a Jewish prophet-Messiah perspective, and that's the full compliance with the Law.

What is the point of a sacrifice if you're going to continue to sin? Do you think Christ gives you a free pass to sin? If not, why not? What is the consequence of willful sinning? Nothing?