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Legitimate reasons not to believe in God

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
Matthew 7:24-27 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Matthew 6:19-21 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

As a survivor of childhood abuse and a once-devout Christian, let me say that I'm not wasting my time praying to God or relying on Jesus to help me with my struggles with PTSD and the trauma I still carry with me. I've already wasted enough of my life trusting in Jesus and pleading with God for his help or deliverance, so I won't do it again. I've healed more emotionally since I disavowed my belief in God and Christian faith. I still have bad days on occasion, but there's no doubt in my mind that my life is much better now.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
As a survivor of childhood abuse and a once-devout Christian, let me say that I'm not wasting my time praying to God or relying on Jesus to help me with my struggles with PTSD and the trauma I still carry with me. I've already wasted enough of my life trusting in Jesus and pleading with God for his help or deliverance, so I won't do it again. I've healed more emotionally since I disavowed my belief in God and Christian faith. I still have bad days on occasion, but there's no doubt in my mind that my life is much better now.
I'm glad that life is better for you now.

I sometimes post those verses because I like the spiritual message in the verses. The message to me is that I if I depend upon earthly treasures those treasures will not last because they will be 'washed away' when death comes upon me. Then what will I have? Nothing. Rather, I prefer to look towards the spiritual world, or heaven, which is eternal, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.

My heart is not in this world and that is why I am so interested in supernatural things that lie beyond this world.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
What's an extreme view by an unbeliever in this context?
Taking an extreme stance such as "God is no different to Spaghetti monster" :)
I find it disingenuous. It's one thing to say that you believe scripture is based on falsehood .. and it's another to claim it is all made up stories in the same way as Alice in Wonderland.

In the case of holy books holy or otherwise, if their source isn't a deity, then it doesn't matter who wrote them. Maybe you disagree.
Well, the older the scripture, the more likely it will contain errors.
i.e. it has been revised many times

When it comes to the NT, we know that the canon was chosen by those with a certain belief, and we know that many of the authors were anonymous. It is believed that their authors were inspired by God. i.e. they are not direct revelation written/recorded by Jesus

This does not mean that the NT does not contain true sayings of Jesus .. I feel sure it does. However, a lot of it is more about Paul and his conversion of gentiles.

The Qur'an is claimed to be a direct revelation from God to prophet Muhammad through Angel Gabriel. You either believe it or you don't. In the same way, you either believe that it is in its original form, or you don't.
Many people point to discrepancies in early scripts and so on. One needs to be an expert in classical Arabic to say whether the meaning was changed. Most experts say no .. different writing styles existed, and nobody has been able to prove that any particular verse has changed its meaning.

..so .. was Muhammad deluded or a fraudulent poet?
..you know what I think..
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
The theme testimony is not a religious pursuit states the teaching.

It wasn't any religion. A following or leadership.

Which most of you ignore as stated.

Religious gathering is a human only choice.

The testimony is humans warning only about predictable causes of machine science.

As earth is the titled legal entity God. Legal a given caused event.

Said legal.

Theists are our destroyer.

Just humans who think confessing....when a human never existed. Then apply a machines reaction. Based on their thesis first.

Also ignored as why I got sacrificed.

We Haven't stopped being life sacrificed. Earths rock law changed. Manifested phenomena and unlike Moses it didn't stop by hitting Ararat. Remains to this day attacking ark ufo.

Also lied about and ignored.

As we were saved from life's decimation not it's suffering.

The reason if life went back to its origin nature law status no rich man or civilisation would be supported. We had mother's father garden life first.

Human the hypocrite self idolator ignored all relevant advice why humans suffer today. The event still active.

Past human choices. Evil.

So whilst the con is to take the warning advice away from the topic and turn it into I'm better than you behaviour...self Idolating.

Life gets closer to its human rich man's chosen destruction. As he theoried for machine and reaction two places by his choice...when a human life never existed first.

The warning you've been warned exact.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Is government historic legal human rights as and for equal mutuality human one world community?

Yes.

Versus temple science Satanism technology history?

Yes.

Is the advice for family first by family non religious in fact?

Yes...someone has to take the advice and act.

What about today men knew CH in science is earth gas spirits not a man.

Yes.

But teaching only said if they hadn't arisen out of earth once first no heavens would exist now?

Yes a teaching not about a man human?

Yes...what body mass historic supported any biology now but isn't biology as one type ...as a mass body only.

Ok. You said anti Christ is not a man also? Two types not a man.

Yes.

Is the same today science not using Christ advice to say. Theist scientists heaven used laboratory heavens for communicated AI experiments on biology. Direct ... are now trying to anti humans.

As they aren't even in thesis using antî Christ religious warnings.

Why religious science says modern occult science is eviler than religious teaching science. The destroyer third time position. Human men.

As if past advice life hurt wasn't evil enough he takes advice anti direct against a humans living position first...now.

Why argument science occult first... religious theist versus most evilest thinker...first. Religious thinker versus science.

All bio life. Planet earth not heaven interactive.

Man build machine heavens interactive used life's water life to own machine.

Machine in heavens now same as biology existing by life holy water.

Says it's protected same law biology himself. Machine man.

Does reaction inside machines body not machine law machine body protected.

Machine blows up...everything biological attacked earth mass opens holes.

Isn't Mr machines man first machine position theory advice of men humans. Machine same body position bio support as my own.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Well, I would say it is more about their interpretation.
Clearly, many people find the Bible and Qur'an to have some contribution to society.
Some good, some bad. Could civilization thrived without either? Likely.

Zoroaster is believed to be an ancient prophet of God in Persia, before Moses. The further we go back in history, the less reliable the teachings become, of course.
So Mormonism is more reliable than Christianity and Islam?

Books are written by men. It's their source and accuracy that is important. The Qur'an is unique in that respect, as it is a relatively recent text memorised by 1000's of people since its advent.
No religious writings are without error, so we take the source with a grain of salt.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
I have an explanation for those who ask, but first let me remind you of the fallacy of argumentum ad populum.

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, bandwagon fallacy, Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious.

The Narrow Way
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. (Matthew 7:13-14 )


Why do you think that more people would believe the Baha'i Faith if it was indeed true? Why do you think that few find it believable? I can give you a list of reasons why they either don't find it and if they do find it why they don't believe it.

1. Many people have never heard of the Baha’i Faith, so they do not know there is something to look for. It is the responsibility of the Baha’is to get the message out, so if that is not happening, the Baha’is are to blame. However, once the message has been delivered the Baha’is are not to blame if people reject the message.

2. But even after people know about the Baha’i Faith, most people are not even willing to look the evidence in order to determine if it is true or not.

3. Even if they are willing to look at the evidence, there is a lot of prejudice before even getting out the door to look at the evidence.

4. 84% of people in the world already have a religion and they are happy with their religion so they have no interest in a “new religion.” 84 percent of the world population has a faith

5. The rest of the world’s population is agnostics or atheists or believers who are prejudiced against all religion.

6. Agnostics or atheists and atheists and believers who have no religion either do not believe that God communicates via Messengers or they find fault with the Messenger, Baha’u’llah.

7. Baha’u’llah brought new teachings and laws that are very different from the older religions so many people are suspicious of those teachings and/or don’t like the laws because some laws require them to give things up that they like doing.

Because those who became Baha'is LOOKED. They found out about the Baha'i Faith and they researched and investigated it and came to believe it is true.

How would people even KNOW about these prophecies unless they LOOKED for them?

All religions grow larger over time. There are 2.4 billion Christians because Christianity has been around for over 2000 years. There are 1.9 billion Muslims because Islam has been around for over 1400 years. The Baha'i Faith has only been around for about 160 years.

Moreover, as is noted on my list above, (#4) most people (84%) already have a religion so they have no reason to join a new religion unless they are dissatisfied with their religion, but since most religious people were raised in the religion they belong to they are entrenched in that religion.

See list of reasons 1-7 above.

See list of reasons 1-7 above.

No, because all 2 billion of them (let alone all 8 billion) have not LOOKED at these prophecies and HOW they were fulfilled by Baha'u'llah. Only a small handfull of people even KNOW about these prophecies and HOW they were fulfilled, as depicted in a book entitled Thief in the Night by William Sears

I find it VERY reasonable given there are logical explanations as to why more people do not even know about the Baha'i Faith, let alone knowing about the prophecies that were fulfilled by Baha'u'llah. I have been a Baha'i for 52 years but I never knew about these prophecies until the last 10 years or so, because another Baha'i told me about them..

This explanation atheists give, that we believe it because we want to believe it is just their way of saying that we have no other reason to believe it since there is no supporting evidence. However, the only reason I do believe it is because of the evidence. Being a Baha'i is not a walk in the park. It'd be much easier to be a Christian, saved and forgiven without having to do anything but believe in Jesus.

Simply put, the prophecies are valid and real because they have been fulfilled. All one need to is compare what the prophecy says with what actually happened on the ground to know they have been fulfilled. This is all a matter of history and geography.
O earth exists God type in legal.
It's created heavens from its planet body legal real. Out of rock came gases...spirit. not a reaction.

Garden nature present.
Animals present.
Human present.

God type the earth.

Satanist men agreed versus family. Built a metal machine god...not earth as god.

Legal.

Human lives in knowledge of nature.

Human life gets attacked on earth.
Human witness to the attack named Jehovah as earth heavens god changed.

Human write a legal presidence..notice nearly word president against satanist.

Satanist false gained hierarchy.

Value never existed.
He digs up earth products places upon all things a False value.
Introduced false value money society in his false value controlled cities of God.

Built houses buildings out of eArths rock.

Puts metal technology fake in gods cities.

Satanist history rich greedy false family status humans versus nature's family on earth.

Human witness to destruction the human teaching.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Government says I believe Catholic city built is a mother abomination message.

Same message for all men. Man built cities of God by his choice not God.

All world government should realise advice...all human men are at fault.

Old teachings carpenter tectonic four day earthquake fault.

To be at fault...men of science cause new disaster.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
That infatuation phase of a relationship only lasts so long. A couple has that much time to begin loving one another, which I would define as you have. If that doesn't happen, which is too frequently the case in egocentric cultures, where couples are in a transactional relationship rather than a loving one, they'll either fall apart or have a relatively loveless marriage.
Yes, I agree that being self-centered, or egocentric as you call it, leads to the couple not caring about each other, and the result is then the relationship becomes as you describe.
You probably meant convince a theist. That would be because it is not possible for an empiricist to convince a faith-based thinker of anything (and vice versa). All he has is evidence that requires another to consider it impartially according to the rules of critical analysis. A faith-based thinker doesn't process information like that, which is also why there is no burden of proof when dealing with somebody unwilling or unable to follow an evidenced argument.
Yes, I meant convince a theist. On my part it is partly because of objective evidence and partly because of subjective evidence that I believe. If a person has impartial evidence that is rock solid with no escape then I would give it up. The objective evidence is overwhelming for me for the Baha'i Faith to be true. Over my life I've had periods of doubt, which led me to dig deeper. As a result of that I have a much greater knowledge base than that which i would have had otherwise. This process went over decades.

As a result of my faith, I believe in God.
That means that you aren't arguing using compelling evidenced argument. That always works if made to somebody willing and able to evaluate it for soundness and be convinced by a compelling argument. Absolutely nothing else works.
Unfortunately, as my knowledge base is so big as I said which I developed over decades I can't present all that you.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for a supernatural event when the natural world has always run according to natural laws.

Besides believing in god sounds like a bet, or a game moreso than something provable.

Life isn't a very brilliant design. Life is something that struggles to exist in the physical world. Technology has enabled the conveniences we all enjoy, and has provided life with reliable living conditions. I can't possibly attribute all that to a God.
I won't hold my breath waiting for a supernatural event to happen to me either.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
You can believe whatever you want to believe, that is the beauty of free will...
Proving it is true is another matter.

The atheists are right: You believe hat you believe because Baha'u'llah said so and because it is emotionally appealing.
Not that there is anything wrong with that but it is good to know why we believe what we believe.
I'm still not clear, some people can experience God within. I've not been very clear at all. I have, and I'm sure that @Seeker of White Light has too.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
But everyone has their own personal opinion as to what is the truth of the matter.

That Hidden Word says that by the aid of Justice (that is, if we are just) we will see through our own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and we will know through our own knowledge and not through the knowledge of others.

In other words, we all have to look through our own eyes at the knowledge we have, "our own knowledge."
Justice in this case means looking at it fairly. The following proves it:

It beseemeth you to fix your gaze under all conditions upon justice and fairness. In The Hidden Words this exalted utterance hath been revealed from Our Most August Pen:

'O Son of Spirit! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbour. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behoveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.'

They that are just and fair-minded in their judgement occupy a sublime station and hold an exalted rank.

(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 36)
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
What exactly do Baha'is believe lives on after death? Do you call it a soul or spirit, or do people use those words interchangeably? Then... Why would the soul or spirit dress like and look like their physical body, and also appear as being at certain physical age?
This is just my personal experience. I wouldn't impose a belief in what I saw on the other Baha'is.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
I am not waiting for anything supernatural either, and nothing supernatural ever happened to me, not until recently. Something supernatural did happen to me a couple of months ago. I never questioned that there is a spiritual world where our souls go and take on a new form after our body dies, but now I have some confirming evidence. I have only told my story to only a couple of my friends, @Truthseeker and @Sgt. Pepper, because it is very personal.
I can certainly understand why you would share this with @Sgt. Pepper as well as me.
 

AppieB

Active Member
I am sorry to say that there is no such evidence for God's existence. God cannot be demonstrated to exist because God is not a physical entity that can be located and analyzed by scientific means. God cannot be objectively and independently verified because there is no way to approach God and verify God.
If there is no evidence for God and God can't be demonstrated or detected, how can anyone be reasonable to believe God exists?
I'm not talking only by scientific means. There has to be a reliable (reasonable) method to conclude God exists. If not, then you admit that believing in God is not reasonable.
The rearrangement of stars in the sky to say “God exists” would have to be done by God since nobody else would be able to do it, but why would God do that given most of the people in the world believe in God owing to one of the religions?
To convince the people who don't believe. Doesn't God want people believing in him?
Surely an omniscient God would know how to convince you and surely an omnipotent God would be able to convince you, so the only logical conclusion we can come to is that God does not choose to convince you, but rather God wants you to come to belief in another way, if you are going to believe in God.
Well, your logic needs some work. That's not the "only logical conclusion". Sure, it could be possible that he exists and doesn't want to convince me. The other possibility is that God doesn't exist.
To me those two are indistinguishable. By which reliable (reasonable) method can I conclude one or the other?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
If there is no evidence for God and God can't be demonstrated or detected, how can anyone be reasonable to believe God exists?
I'm not talking only by scientific means. There has to be a reliable method to conclude God exists. If not, then you admit that believing in God is not reasonable.
...

That can't be done for reason, because in the end it is not objective. You are in effect using your subjective version of it and so am I, just a different one.
 
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