Let’s Return to the Fundamental Truth

[Bthoth]

There is activity on this forum but much of it seems unproductive and meaningless in the bigger picture, so let’s start back from the beginning.

Agreed. For example:

The beginning of wisdom is the fear of God.

That line is 100% speculation.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

You said

The point of my post is to bring to mind that truth - wake up and be alert.

So why insert the concept of God, which for many is meaningless or problematic for one reason or another? Why not just say that the first fundamental truth is to Wake Up and Be Alert?

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Wow. Like I said, the fear of God, after getting smacked by a few reality checks, soon enough subsides.

I’m fine with the interpretation that God is using fear to manipulate because I don’t shy away from the subjective truth in feeling antagonistic toward God. Actually, I encourage it. I’m no apologist.

You said



So why insert the concept of God, which for many is meaningless or problematic for one reason or another? Why not just say that the first fundamental truth is to Wake Up and Be Alert?

It’s because the character of God doesn’t become meaningless later in the story. Like I said, I posted this in the theological section so atheists weren’t the primary audience I had in mind.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Wow. Like I said, the fear of God, after getting smacked by a few reality check!s, soon enough subsides.

I’m fine with the interpretation that God is using fear to manipulate because I don’t shy away from the subjective truth in feeling antagonistic toward God. Actually, I encourage it. I’m no apologist.

It’s because the character of God doesn’t become meaningless later in the story. Like I said, I posted this in the theological section so atheists weren’t the primary audience I had in mind.

Okay, so you're only interested in a fairly limited perspective of theology...

In that case, I'm out. Have a good thread

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Since there are several atheists responding, how do you as an atheist view getting smacked by reality checks over and over? It’s similar to asking how would you deal with an unavoidable bully?

You are allowed to choose between interpretations, but at what point do you desire revenge and tell yourself this is another person called God who I can relate to, and through relationship potentially affect? Btw, not believing in God is not a form of revenge. That clearly doesn’t bother him much as he doesn’t treat most atheists much differently than most believers.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Okay, so you're only interested in a fairly limited perspective of theology...

In that case, I'm out. Have a good thread

To clarify, I welcome atheists in this thread, but I posted it in the theological section so I can frame it truthfully.

 

[PureX]

The beginning of wisdom is the fear of God.

For me, this is true, but only if it's being read poetically. "God" is a representation of the great mystery of life. Of the unknown source, sustenance and purpose of all that is. And whatever wisdom we humans do manage to achieve comes from facing that great mystery, and accepting that we are not in control, here.

To act or not to act. The default human state of mind is to be at ease, to be in the center of our comfort zone. It’s not until we get jolted and stung by a painful reality check do we reconsider our default state, and nobody changes at this fundamental level after the first handful of reality checks.

I see no reason at all to wish anyone discomfort. People are often at their best when they are comfortable.

It’s easy to understand why we want to stay in the middle of the comfort zone, but the desire to deviate from this comes after the exasperation and frustration of getting smacked by reality with your guard down over and over. So we remember the pain, and we hold the memory in the back of our mind. This scoots us out of the middle and toward the edge of the comfort zone.

Big deal. I still see no great advantage coming from smacking people around. Yes, some may "wake up", but others will "close up", and rightfully so.

This is what it means to fear God.

To suffer? No. I don't think so. But I do think that we need to be and to stay "awake" to the great mystery of being, and to humble ourselves in it's presence. And to be grateful.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

For me, this is true, but only if it's being read poetically. "God" is a representation of the great mystery of life. Of the unknown source, sustenance and purpose of all that is. And whatever wisdom we humans do manage to achieve comes from facing that great mystery, and accepting that we are not in control, here.

I see no reason at all to wish anyone discomfort. People are often at their best when they are comfortable.

Big deal. I still see no great advantage coming from smacking people around. Yes, some may "wake up", but others will "close up", and rightfully so.

To suffer? No. I don't think so. But I do think that we need to be and to stay "awake" to the great mystery of being, and to humble ourselves in it's presence. And to be grateful.

Is this the perspective of someone for whom there is distance between getting smacked by a reality check? What I mean, does this perspective hold up right after a painful reality check? In my experience, it doesn’t.

 

[PureX]

Is this the perspective of someone for whom there is distance between getting smacked by a reality check? What I mean, does this perspective hold up right after a painful reality check? In my experience, it doesn’t.

Those who can't hold onto a hard lesson learned are usually doomed to a repeat of their misfortunes. Is that God's doing? I do not know. It's just something I have seen happen.

 

[Quintessence]

Hmm. As a polytheist I think I approach this somewhat differently than you, @Treasure Hunter.

It is certainly true that the gods are a perpetual reminder that humans are not, in fact, the most powerful entities in the known universe. One of the major reasons I cannot stomach atheism is because of its implication that there are no powers and forces greater than humans. Gods are, after all, higher powers - that's one of the few points of agreement on what gods are across various cultures. And higher powers will consistently remind you that no, you are not in control of life, reality, and everything. The gods are. That's not to say one has no power, but it is minuscule compared to that of the gods.

As an illustrative example, one of the reasons I pay special devotion to Storm Spirits is because they do a very good job of putting humanity in its place. For me this really isn't so much about fear - though that can be a part of it - as much as it is about the recognition that humans are not in charge. As the wind blows and the thunder rumbles, as the lightning strikes and the rain pours, as the ice freezes the lands and the snow piles high, as the animals scurry both human and otherwise, as usual activity is halted amidst the power and glory of these gods... it is an undeniable reminder of who and what is really in charge. Not humans. The gods.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Hmm. As a polytheist I think I approach this somewhat differently than you, @Treasure Hunter.

It is certainly true that the gods are a perpetual reminder that humans are not, in fact, the most powerful entities in the known universe. One of the major reasons I cannot stomach atheism is because of its implication that there are no powers and forces greater than humans. Gods are, after all, higher powers - that's one of the few points of agreement on what gods are across various cultures. And higher powers will consistently remind you that no, you are not in control of life, reality, and everything. The gods are. That's not to say one has no power, but it is minuscule compared to that of the gods.

As an illustrative example, one of the reasons I pay special devotion to Storm Spirits is because they do a very good job of putting humanity in its place. For me this really isn't so much about fear - though that can be a part of it - as much as it is about the recognition that humans are not in charge. As the wind blows and the thunder rumbles, as the lightning strikes and the rain pours, as the ice freezes the lands and the snow piles high, as the animals scurry both human and otherwise, as usual activity is halted amidst the power and glory of these gods... it is an undeniable reminder of who and what is really in charge. Not humans. The gods.

The way I like to frame it is in terms of authoring a story. The reality checks are God’s way of imposing a particular structure for the story. Humanity is given the authority to fill in the details of the story, but if you try to deny God’s authorship entirely, there will be undesirable consequences over the long-term.

 

[metis]

"Fear" in this context means "awe" or "God respecting" from the Greek.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Since there are several atheists responding, how do you as an atheist view getting smacked by reality checks over and over? It’s similar to asking how would you deal with an unavoidable bully?

I don't mean this in a flippant way, but it sounds like you're dealing with some unfortunate circumstances and probably some mental health issues. Did I read that right?

"Getting smacked by reality checks over and over" doesn’t fit as a description of my life.

You are allowed to choose between interpretations, but at what point do you desire revenge and tell yourself this is another person called God who I can relate to, and through relationship potentially affect?

This sounds nothing like my response to misfortune. There are things that will make me feel frustrated or angry - sometimes overwhelmingly so - but these emotions never push me into personifying the source of my frustration to seek out revenge.

 

[ChristineM]

The beginning of wisdom is the fear of God.

Is it? A good family friend was Jewish. As a child i asked him why does my Sunday school teacher say we should fear god. His reply "I don't understand people who fear god, what is to fear? I have found him a great friend and comforter that i can to talk to since Eliana died"

I am now atheist and i too cannot understand people who fear their own mind.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

I don't mean this in a flippant way, but it sounds like you're dealing with some unfortunate circumstances and probably some mental health issues. Did I read that right?

"Getting smacked by reality checks over and over" doesn’t fit as a description of my life.




This sounds nothing like my response to misfortune. There are things that will make me feel frustrated or angry - sometimes overwhelmingly so - but these emotions never push me into personifying the source of my frustration to seek out revenge.

In Christianity, this is called the wide path. Most people are like you. My ideas are radical, but morality at the deepest levels is radical. If someone is satisfied with the status quo of their life, then what I speak to won’t align.

 

[Left Coast]

In Christianity, this is called the wide path. Most people are like you. My ideas are radical, but morality at the deepest levels is radical. If someone is satisfied with the status quo of their life, then what I speak to won’t align.

So to be clear, you think the "straight and narrow" path of Jesus is to be perpetually mad at God and seek revenge against him for making bad things happen to you?

If so, that's fascinating because it bears zero resemblance to any mainstream or historically tenable Christian interpretation of God or Christianity. Where did you come up with this version?

 

[Treasure Hunter]

So to be clear, you think the "straight and narrow" path of Jesus is to be perpetually mad at God and seek revenge against him for making bad things happen to you?

If so, that's fascinating because it bears zero resemblance to any mainstream or historically tenable Christian interpretation of God or Christianity. Where did you come up with this version?

To seek justice is the highest calling. Before Jesus walked into his crucification and death, he specifically emphasized that the father and the son are one. Whatever Jesus experienced, he was imposing on God the father.

The God who is lord over this world full of evil and suffering is not worthy to lord over the new world to come. He must face judgment and be cleansed through death like anyone else.

We speak of what we know. We know what we experience and what is revealed to us about our experience. I speak the truth about my experience and what has been revealed to me.

 

[Left Coast]

To seek justice is the highest calling. Before Jesus walked into his crucification and death, he specifically emphasized that the father and the son are one. Whatever Jesus experienced, he was imposing on God the father.

The God who is lord over this world full of evil and suffering is not worthy to lord over the new world to come. He must face judgment and be cleansed through death like anyone else.

We speak of what we know. We know what we experience and what is revealed to us about our experience. I speak the truth about my experience and what has been revealed to me.

This sounds like some sort of Gnosticism. Fascinating. Not at all the Christianity of the New Testament, but fascinating regardless.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

This sounds like some sort of Gnosticism. Fascinating. Not at all the Christianity of the New Testament, but fascinating regardless.

It’s not meant to replace what is taught in the New Testament. Wisdom stacks on top like building the Tower of Babel.

 

[Left Coast]

It’s not meant to replace what is taught in the New Testament. Wisdom stacks on top like building the Tower of Babel.

The Tower of Babel was bad, FYI.