Let's discuss VIRTUES

[Tamino]

Ahh, the Two Truths doctrine.

Also reminds me of the Ancient Egyptian Hall of Two Truths where the weighing of the heart occurs.

The "two truths" in Egyptian tradition are different, though. It refers to a pair of Goddesses, likely a form of Isis&Nephtys. I have not come across any Egyptian text that would interprete the "double truths" in a philosophical way.

In Egypt, Ma'at was absolutely central, but to translate that word with "truth" is a limited solution - it also carries the meaning of "justice" and sometimes "order" and "harmony".

 

[Secret Chief]

Ahh, the Two Truths doctrine.

Oh yes, me man Nāgārjuna.

 

[Vinayaka]

Please share your specific Religion and its Perspective as you see it, on these "virtues." Share a scripture quote, traditional story/parable, or perhaps a ritual that encompasses how you embrace the virtue.

I will occasionally add another, (they are from a specific theology, though I'll not say which), for discussion, so please follow the thread.

Perseverance reminds us to continue
pushing onward, despite potential
obstacles. To persevere is to not only rise
up in the face of defeat, but to learn and
grow from our mistakes and poor
choices. Anyone can be mediocre
Anyone can be average. Anyone can do
just enough to get by. But if we want to
excel, and live up to our fullest potential
then we have to persevere. We have to
push on even when things are hard and
frustrating, or even if it seems like things
are completely impossible. lf we don't
persevere, then we have nothing to strive for.

There are several lists of virtues. We have a detailed on in my Hindu sampradaya, called character traits. Obviously, there is a lot of overlap.

Perserverance, to me, has a lot to do with will, and the key in my life has been to think of large tasks as one bit at a time. There are plenty of analogies, like building a temple one brick at a time. If you look at the whole thing, it's much harder. My monk friends, who recently completed their all stone temple in Hawaii, shared recently how they got help from India. They knew they would need help, and started asking various Indian Hindu organizations if they'd help them. Everybody was saying 'that's impossible, can't be done, your goal is WAY too high, etc. They kept trying until they met one Trichyswami, who said, 'That's a great idea! For sure I'll help." And he did. Forty years later it's done.

When I graduated university, I sent out 50 job applications (that was the goal), and got 3 interviews. The beautiful irony with will, is that the more you use, the more you get. So much can be accomplished. In our list, we also point out the opposite of each virtue, and in this case, I'd say it's sloth.

Here's the link to our list. Himalayan Academy Publications - A Character Building Workbook

 

[crossfire]

The "two truths" in Egyptian tradition are different, though. It refers to a pair of Goddesses, likely a form of Isis&Nephtys. I have not come across any Egyptian text that would interprete the "double truths" in a philosophical way.

In Egypt, Ma'at was absolutely central, but to translate that word with "truth" is a limited solution - it also carries the meaning of "justice" and sometimes "order" and "harmony".

I agree, Isis and Nephthys were most often depicted as the Ma'ati. (Isis accompanying Ra on the day bark through our objective world and Nephthys accompanying Ra on the night bark through the Duat.)

 

[Balthazzar]

Unwilling that any perish but all come to repentance would qualify. Another would be about the 1 lost "sheep" and leaving the 99 to go find it. Perseverance seems a noteworthy and endearing type of virtue.

 

[Spice]

And the last virtue to be compared to other religions from the unknown we've been taking a peek at is:

Courage: both physical and moral
courage. Courage isn't necessarily about
running into a fight with your guns
blazing. For many people, it's more about
standing up for what you believe in and
what you know to be right and just, even
if it's not the popular opinion. Many
Heathens agree that it takes a lot of
courage to live by the Nine Noble Virtues
particularly if you live in an area that's
spiritually conservative, and is generally
ruled by Ten of the Other Guy's Rules
Living your beliefs in the face of
opposition requires as much courage as
going into battle.

And there we have it. The final piece of the triple triangle that shape the symbol of The Nine Noble Virtues of the Norse Religion generally termed under the umbrella of Heathen or Paganism.

I'll list the source of my info in the next, and final lead post, but I do hope the thread will continue with questions, further comparisons, and additional information (not proselytizing) from RF Heathen practioners.

This has been fun!! Thanks everyone who participated and please keep it going.....

 

[Spice]

By Patti Wigington
Paganism Expert
B.A., History, Ohio University
Updated on December 10, 2018

In many branches of Norse Paganism, including but not limited to Asatru, adherents follow a set of guidelines known as the Nine Noble Virtues. This set of moral and ethical standards is drawn from a number of sources, both historic and literary. Sources include the Havamal, the Poetic and Prose Eddas, and many of the Icelandic sagas. Although various branches of Asatruar interpret these nine virtues in slightly different ways, there seems to be some universality as to what the virtues are and what they stand for.

*********************
Did You Know?

• To the Asatru, the gods are living beings—the Aesir, the Vanir, and the Jotnar—who take an active role in the world and its inhabitants.

• Many Asatruar believe that those who killed in battle are escorted to Valhalla; those who live a dishonorable life will end up in Hifhel, a place of torment.

• Some Asatru and Heathen groups are publicly denouncing white supremacists who have co-opted Norse symbols to further a racist agenda.

For more about this reviewed religion, and many others, see the web page linked here:

What is the Asatru Pagan Tradition?

The Asatru tradition focuses on pre-Christian Norse spirituality. Numerous Asatru groups exist in the United States and other countries.

www.learnreligions.com

 

[The Hammer]

And the last virtue to be compared to other religions from the unknown we've been taking a peek at is:

Courage: both physical and moral
courage. Courage isn't necessarily about
running into a fight with your guns
blazing. For many people, it's more about
standing up for what you believe in and
what you know to be right and just, even
if it's not the popular opinion. Many
Heathens agree that it takes a lot of
courage to live by the Nine Noble Virtues
particularly if you live in an area that's
spiritually conservative, and is generally
ruled by Ten of the Other Guy's Rules
Living your beliefs in the face of
opposition requires as much courage as
going into battle.

Another good one.

There are two main types of courage, physical and moral. Physical courage is bravery in the face of adversity and hardship, for the sake of a worthy goal. To display confidence in ones actions. While moral courage is to act rightly and justly, even when faced with opposition, or personal loss. Courage does not mean to be unafraid, but to face that fear head on without wavering. To still show strength of resolve even in the face of uncertainty or defeat.

When one is courageous, one does not overthink their situation, but acts as wisdom and vision guides them. The stories and myths of our Gods are filled with examples of Courage to emulate, such as Tyr placing his hand in the mouth of the great wolf Fenrir, to ensure he was bound until Ragnarok, knowingly losing his hand in the process.

 

[Spice]

Another good one.

There are two main types of courage, physical and moral. Physical courage is bravery in the face of adversity and hardship, for the sake of a worthy goal. To display confidence in ones actions. While moral courage is to act rightly and justly, even when faced with opposition, or personal loss. Courage does not mean to be unafraid, but to face that fear head on without wavering. To still show strength of resolve even in the face of uncertainty or defeat.

When one is courageous, one does not overthink their situation, but acts as wisdom and vision guides them. The stories and myths of our Gods are filled with examples of Courage to emulate, such as Tyr placing his hand in the mouth of the great wolf Fenrir, to ensure he was bound until Ragnarok, knowingly losing his hand in the process.

Now that all Nine are revealed I can ask, are you Asatru, another sect, or perhaps undefined? I've seen you mention Druids, how does that fit, or does it, with what I'm learning of Asatru?

 

[The Hammer]

Now that all Nine are revealed I can ask, are you Asatru, another sect, or perhaps undefined? I've seen you mention Druids, how does that fit, or does it, with what I'm learning of Asatru?

I am a part of a polytheistic focused Druid church called Ár nDraíocht Féin (ADF), which roughly translates to "Our Own Druidry". As a polytheistic reconstruction focused approach, all proto-indo-european deities have a place, from Celtic to Vedic.

I personally work with the Germanic deities, but have explored elsewhere as well.

 

[Nakosis]

Please share your specific Religion and its Perspective as you see it, on these "virtues." Share a scripture quote, traditional story/parable, or perhaps a ritual that encompasses how you embrace the virtue.

I will occasionally add another, (they are from a specific theology, though I'll not say which), for discussion, so please follow the thread.

Perseverance reminds us to continue
pushing onward, despite potential
obstacles. To persevere is to not only rise
up in the face of defeat, but to learn and
grow from our mistakes and poor
choices. Anyone can be mediocre
Anyone can be average. Anyone can do
just enough to get by. But if we want to
excel, and live up to our fullest potential
then we have to persevere. We have to
push on even when things are hard and
frustrating, or even if it seems like things
are completely impossible. lf we don't
persevere, then we have nothing to strive for.

Instead of virtues, they were called dynamics:

The First Dynamic—is the urge toward existence as one’s self. Here we have individuality expressed fully. This can be called the Self Dynamic.

The Second Dynamic—is the urge toward existence as a sexual activity. This dynamic actually has two divisions. Second Dynamic (a) is the sexual act itself. And the Second Dynamic (b) is the family unit, including the rearing of children. This can be called the Sex Dynamic.

The Third Dynamic—is the urge toward existence in groups of individuals. Any group, or part of an entire class, could be considered to be a part of the Third Dynamic. The school, the society, the town, the nation are each part of the Third Dynamic and each one is a Third Dynamic. This can be called the Group Dynamic.

The Fourth Dynamic—is the urge toward existence as or of Mankind. Whereas one race would be considered a Third Dynamic, all the races would be considered the Fourth Dynamic. This can be called the Mankind Dynamic.

The Fifth Dynamic—is the urge toward existence of the animal kingdom. This includes all living things, whether vegetable or animal, the fish in the sea, the beasts of the field or of the forest, grass, trees, flowers or anything directly and intimately motivated by life. This can be called the Animal Dynamic.

The Sixth Dynamic—is the urge toward existence as the physical universe. The physical universe is composed of Matter, Energy, Space and Time.

The Seventh Dynamic—is the urge toward existence as or of spirits. Anything spiritual, with or without identity, would come under the heading of the Seventh Dynamic. This can be called the Spiritual Dynamic.

The Eighth Dynamic—is the urge toward existence as infinity. This is also identified as the Supreme Being. This is called the Eighth Dynamic because the symbol of infinity, ∞, stood upright makes the numeral 8. This can be called the Infinity or God Dynamic.

 

[crossfire]

When I think of fearlessness, I think of Amoghasiddhi.

Amoghasiddhi - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Spice]

I am a part of a polytheistic focused Druid church called Ár nDraíocht Féin (ADF), which roughly translates to "Our Own Druidry". As a polytheistic reconstruction focused approach, all proto-indo-european deities have a place, from Celtic to Vedic.

I personally work with the Germanic deities, but have explored elsewhere as well.

So that would account for you catching on to their being 9 virtues, but not being the ones you Ascribe to? In your faith do you chose your own virtues in a similar way Hindus chose which God they follow. That is, if I'm understanding that correctly.

 

[Spice]

Instead of virtues, they were called dynamics:

The First Dynamic—is the urge toward existence as one’s self. Here we have individuality expressed fully. This can be called the Self Dynamic.

The Second Dynamic—is the urge toward existence as a sexual activity. This dynamic actually has two divisions. Second Dynamic (a) is the sexual act itself. And the Second Dynamic (b) is the family unit, including the rearing of children. This can be called the Sex Dynamic.

The Third Dynamic—is the urge toward existence in groups of individuals. Any group, or part of an entire class, could be considered to be a part of the Third Dynamic. The school, the society, the town, the nation are each part of the Third Dynamic and each one is a Third Dynamic. This can be called the Group Dynamic.

The Fourth Dynamic—is the urge toward existence as or of Mankind. Whereas one race would be considered a Third Dynamic, all the races would be considered the Fourth Dynamic. This can be called the Mankind Dynamic.

The Fifth Dynamic—is the urge toward existence of the animal kingdom. This includes all living things, whether vegetable or animal, the fish in the sea, the beasts of the field or of the forest, grass, trees, flowers or anything directly and intimately motivated by life. This can be called the Animal Dynamic.

The Sixth Dynamic—is the urge toward existence as the physical universe. The physical universe is composed of Matter, Energy, Space and Time.

The Seventh Dynamic—is the urge toward existence as or of spirits. Anything spiritual, with or without identity, would come under the heading of the Seventh Dynamic. This can be called the Spiritual Dynamic.

The Eighth Dynamic—is the urge toward existence as infinity. This is also identified as the Supreme Being. This is called the Eighth Dynamic because the symbol of infinity, ∞, stood upright makes the numeral 8. This can be called the Infinity or God Dynamic.

These are interesting precepts and make a lot of sense. Your profile says your Religion is Scientism. How can you teach a little about it without violating RF rules? I don't think I've heard anything about it. Scientology is the closest "sounding" religion that comes to mind.

 

[Spice]

When I think of fearlessness, I think of Amoghasiddhi.

Amoghasiddhi - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Now you've gone and opened up another whole religious view I knew nothing about. I thought Buddha was a title with Siddhartha being the first and the representations of "Buddha" continuing as something similar to assorted styles of crosses, but not representing specific "gods"? "Deities"? What is the proper name for multiple Buddha's, I guess I'm asking?

 

[crossfire]

Now you've gone and opened up another whole religious view I knew nothing about. I thought Buddha was a title with Siddhartha being the first and the representations of "Buddha" continuing as something similar to assorted styles of crosses, but not representing specific "gods"? "Deities"? What is the proper name for multiple Buddha's, I guess I'm asking?

The five Dhyani Buddhas are representations of the five wisdoms gained by overcoming 5 kleshas (disturbing emotions.)

Five Tathāgatas - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You can find out more about them in this useful pdf

https://newbuddhist.com/uploads/FileUpload/bb/2fa4a679c906e724652135e8fa49f3.pdf

 

[Kathryn]

Honor:

1 Peter 2:17 -“Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.”
Romans 12:10 “Honor one another above yourselves.”

I like those a lot.

 

[Kathryn]

Truth:
John 14:6: "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
John 8:32: "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
John 17:17: "Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth."
2 Corinthians 13:8: "For we cannot oppose the truth, but must always stand for the truth."
1 Corinthians 13:6: "Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth."

 

[The Hammer]

So that would account for you catching on to their being 9 virtues, but not being the ones you Ascribe to?

Mhmm, I actually knew which 9 you were using specifically once Industry popped up.

In your faith do you chose your own virtues in a similar way Hindus chose which God they follow. That is, if I'm understanding that correctly.

Yes.

So the ones I listed earlier are considered the core 9 Pagan virtues in ADF. The ones you posted are also acknowledged as a supplemental nine that many use as well.

We also have the Way of Providers: Industry, Sensuality, and Hospitality; the Way of Warriors: Courage, Strength, and Honor; and the Way of the Wise: Memory, Reason, and Vision. As another arrangement of the nine.

 

[Spice]

Mhmm, I actually knew which 9 you were using specifically once Industry popped up.


Yes.

So the ones I listed earlier are considered the core 9 Pagan virtues in ADF. The ones you posted are also acknowledged as a supplemental nine that many use as well.

We also have the Way of Providers: Industry, Sensuality, and Hospitality; the Way of Warriors: Courage, Strength, and Honor; and the Way of the Wise: Memory, Reason, and Vision. As another arrangement of the nine.

I really like the break down to Providers, Warriors, and the Wise. That's a great way to see the three separate triangles that blend. Oh my! Yet another Trinity!