Let's Get Real

[metis]

First all, to those who responded, thanks. I wish I had the time to respond to each of you, but I don't.

The only thing I was disappointed in was that a couple of responses attached some sort of negative judgementalism towards religion to my OP, but let me rest assure them that this was not my intent at all, which I thought I made clear at the end of my OP when I mentioned that I was going to start off with a "glass half-empty" approach. I have not denounced any faith, but I certainly did imply that I am not enamored with the "my way or the highway" approach to religion.

The post below hit the nail squarely on its head, and I very much appreciated that, as well as some others here who also seemed to grasp what I was doing.

To each of you, thanks.

You're missing his point.

His questions made the point that no one can answer them objectively... Any one that tries to suggest it beyond a personal experience is fooling themselves.

There is no right or wrong religion based on objectivity. You actually just repeated and affirmed his point.

You misunderstood the goal of his questions, not the content, so can you truly suggest if they were good or bad questions?

Exactly, as the real issue I was driving at is "objectivity" versus "subjectivity" when it comes to religion, not whether any particular religion, or religion in general, is right or wrong. My "Let's Get Real" introduction was to explain this, and you and some others grasped that correctly. I knew in advance I'd ruffle some feathers here as I mentioned in the OP, but that sorta goes with the territory here.

 

[metis]

Now for the "glass half-full" approach.

Does religious faith serve some value to a person and/or society? IMO, the answer is yes.

Even though we may not be able to prove any particular religion as being basically correct objectively, they are correct to the individual believer, and that often is a very good thing. It's what Joseph Campbell wrote about when he wrote "... and the myth became the reality". "Myth", in this context, does not mean nor imply falsehood, as Campbell was a theist himself. What he meant is that the narratives within a religion tend to become the teachings even though they cannot be objectively established as being true. To him, that's not a bad thing-- it just is. IOW, one's faith need not be objective in order to possibly be valid, at least to that person, and some of you responded as such. And I agree with you.

Is religion good or bad? That's actually a bad question because it posits and either/or dichotomy. There's been a lot of bad historically done in the name of "God(s)" but, imo, I still tend to believe overall that religion is more positive than negative. Some here will disagree with me on that, and that's fine.

So, in closing, my OP was not an attack on religion. Some here know me well enough to know that this was not my objective.

Take care, and thanks again.

 

[suncowiam]

So you believe. Certainly, you missed mine, but that's okay. A response from the person I was actually addressing will be more relevant to me.

By re-asking questions to objectify religion as you were asking for would have changed the goal of OP.

His questions were rhetorical yet most people still tried to answer them showing how biased their religion truly was. You were one of the few religious folks to actually agree with the OP but actually wasn't aware of the underlying goal.

[edited]
I certainly used the wrong word to describe this point. I meant to place religion in an objective perspective.

What qualities of religion do you find is objective for all of society? What questions would you ask to draw an objective perspective?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

OK, you can now gather together to start the "I Hate Metis" club.

Why are you personalizing this? It serves only to tarnish a fairly good point.

 

[metis]

Why are you personalizing this? It serves only to tarnish a fairly good point

Actually I was sorta joking, using hyperbole.

 

[Fool]

By the time I finish this post, I will undoubtedly make many enemies, but here it goes anyway, starting off with a series of questions.

1.Which religion is the right one?
.

religion is right when no one is left out.

22. Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the (Father's) kingdom."

They said to him, "Then shall we enter the (Father's) kingdom as babies?"

Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."


unconditional mind

 

[robocop (actually)]

All of them are the right one, but I believe in Raelism in regards to how they are the right ones.

 

[Milton Platt]

One can't blame the belief system for the actions of those who break its rules, any more than one can blame the law against stealing for the actions of the shoplifter. I can hear the thief in court now; 'Your honor...there's a law against stealing and that law made me put the shoes under my coat! If there hadn't been a law against it, I would have just taken those shoes and walked out with them, and I wouldn't be here today. See? It's all your fault!"

.....and there isn't a single belief system about deity (whether it's 'my way is the only way" or 'there ain't no such thing') that doesn't have people in it who have committed atrocities. As it happens, the most egregious and homocidal genocides in the twentieth century were committed by governments that were officially atheist (as in...no religion allowed).

I don't think any of the atheists in here would appreciate 'atheism' being tagged with the death of those, literally, millions of deaths.

Yes, but what is the golden rule, and how does that make the religion true?

 

[Buddha Dharma]

All of them are the right one, but I believe in Raelism in regards to how they are the right ones.

For an Epicurean, Raelism actually makes perfect sense!

 

[robocop (actually)]

Maitreya Rael is the World Teacher/New Buddha!

 

[Milton Platt]

Atricities has nothing to do with religion. People do as they ignore their religion

Religion has been used to justify genocide, slavery, and other horrific things in the past, but yes, you are right,people do profess a belief and then ignore the dogma they are supposed to subscribe to.

 

[robocop (actually)]

And that's good... an Epicurean would say don't keep the commandments but please the god.

 

[dianaiad]

Yes, but what is the golden rule, and how does that make the religion true?

You are seriously asking what the 'golden rule' is?

As far as I can tell, most religions have some form of it: "do unto others as you would have others do unto you," "do as you would be done by," "don't treat others in ways you would not like to be treated yourself..."

If the 'golden rule' is true/valid/whatever, then it is true/valid/whatever no matter where one finds it, just as a piece of granite is a piece of granite whether one finds it in a mountain cliff, as a pebble in a stream or a kitchen counter top.

So...whatever belief system incorporates the 'golden rule' is true... even if only so far as the golden rule is concerned.

Doesn't mean that it is 'true' in anything ELSE, but then just as I believe that all religions have some truth in them (and mine has the most, of course...or else I'd find the one I thought did have the most, join it, and still declare that my own has the most truth), so I also acknowledge that all religions are wrong somewhere.

Have to be.
Humans are involved.

 

[Milton Platt]

You are seriously asking what the 'golden rule' is?

As far as I can tell, most religions have some form of it: "do unto others as you would have others do unto you," "do as you would be done by," "don't treat others in ways you would not like to be treated yourself..."

If the 'golden rule' is true/valid/whatever, then it is true/valid/whatever no matter where one finds it, just as a piece of granite is a piece of granite whether one finds it in a mountain cliff, as a pebble in a stream or a kitchen counter top.

So...whatever belief system incorporates the 'golden rule' is true... even if only so far as the golden rule is concerned.

Doesn't mean that it is 'true' in anything ELSE, but then just as I believe that all religions have some truth in them (and mine has the most, of course...or else I'd find the one I thought did have the most, join it, and still declare that my own has the most truth), so I also acknowledge that all religions are wrong somewhere.

Have to be.
Humans are involved.

I wanted you to articulate exactly what it was, thanks.
The fact that a saying espouses good behavior that is generally (but not necessarily universally) agreed upon does not bear on whether the religion is true. Religions that have some form of this saying can't all be true because they believe things which are sometimes in conflict.

 

[dianaiad]

I wanted you to articulate exactly what it was, thanks.
The fact that a saying espouses good behavior that is generally (but not necessarily universally) agreed upon does not bear on whether the religion is true. Religions that have some form of this saying can't all be true because they believe things which are sometimes in conflict.

Milton...and that's my father's name. I like it...

ANYWAY....I addressed your point, rather completely, in my post. Didn't you bother to read it? Here it is, so that you can read it if you missed it:

If the 'golden rule' is true/valid/whatever, then it is true/valid/whatever no matter where one finds it

, just as a piece of granite is a piece of granite whether one finds it in a mountain cliff, as a pebble in a stream or a kitchen counter top.

So...whatever belief system incorporates the 'golden rule' is true... even if only so far as the golden rule is concerned.

Doesn't mean that it is 'true' in anything ELSE, but then just as I believe that all religions have some truth in them (and mine has the most, of course...or else I'd find the one I thought did have the most, join it, and still declare that my own has the most truth), so I also acknowledge that all religions are wrong somewhere.

Have to be.
Humans are involved.

I hope that clears things up.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

You know the problem with getting real? Everyone has a different idea about what is real.

 

[Deeje]

@metis asked....
1.Which religion is the right one?
The one God approves of.

2.Which denomination/branch in that religion is the right one?
The one following the teachings that God approves of.

3.Which set of scriptures are the right one?
The one authored by the God who created us.

4.How many deities are there?
Just one real one....and a lot of fakes.

5.Who is right: Jesus, Mohammed, Moses, the Buddha, etc.?
The one sent by God.

So what role does God play in the answers to your questions.....as opposed to the role played by us truth seekers?

Do you want 'spoon fed' answers or a road with clear signposts pointing to "the truth"? Since there is a deceptive spirit in this world able to make the truth appear to be lies and the lies, truth...how do we make sure that what we believe is correct? The truth is...we can't, but at the same time, if God is directing us, Jesus said we would "know the truth and the truth will set you free". What did he mean?

How did Jesus tell us to find those who are telling the truth? He said not to just listen to what they say, but to look at what they do...their "fruits". (Matthew 7:15-20) If the two do not line up, then something is wrong. That is how he made the differentiation with the Pharisees in his day. As a body, they did not practice what they preached. Individuals among that body did respond to Jesus message however.

So we each need to ask ourselves what God's word and Jesus' teachings tell us NOT to do.....then weigh up what any religion that professes to worship the God of Abraham is actually doing that flies in the face of those teachings.

The sanctity of human life is a big one. Jesus did not advocate bloodshed or any involvement with this world's governments. Rather he identified their unseen ruler. (1 John 5:19) He never said that there is any such thing as a "just war" and told us to even "love our enemies" as well as our brothers. Political wars do not uphold either of those principles. In the two world wars of last century, enemies were killed and so were brothers of the same faith on opposing sides. Politics does not determine who our "brother" is, nor does it define our "enemies".

Jesus clearly outlined the morals that any worshiper of the true God will uphold, without looking for loopholes. His laws on marriage and divorce for example. His teachings on pre-marital sex for another.

How did the first century Christians keep their congregations morally clean? They excommunicated those who flouted God's laws. (1 Corinthians 5:9-13) In Israel, the penalty was much harsher.

Now, notice that I asked you your opinions, but what I want you to do is to provide objectively-derived evidence to substantiate your beliefs.

I'll save you time-- you can't do it. So, Let's Get Real.

Getting real is the hard part, once you realize that most people are kidding themselves about the worship they give to God. There is no such thing as "objectively derived evidence" for religious beliefs....or for any kind of god. But the truth is, there is no objectively derived evidence for the opposition either. What we believe is largely a matter of what we want to be true. Atheists and believers alike operate under the same principle.

The apostle Paul wrote...."The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 ESV)

As I see it, satan is allowed to test humanity out to see if they will stick with God when its hard to do so...or whether they don't have a strong enough love for the truth to stand up and be counted. Satan can then lead them in all kinds of directions because they actually find pleasure in what God condemns, which leads to justification. Its not that God 'creates' the delusion that they are 'right'....but that he read the hearts of humans and simply allows them to keep believing the lies they have chosen as "their" truth.

If we are disposed in our own hearts to uphold the standards of righteousness that Jesus advocated, then God will "draw" us to his truth. (John 6:44) IOW, God will choose to reveal his truth to us. If we are in any doubt, then it isn't God who is drawing us in...it is his adversary claiming another willing victim.

That is how I see things.

 

[metis]

religion is right when no one is left out.

I hear ya, but personally I don't get into which religion is "right".

 

[metis]

Religion has been used to justify genocide, slavery, and other horrific things in the past, but yes, you are right,people do profess a belief and then ignore the dogma they are supposed to subscribe to.

I remember reading an article by a Lutheran minister whereas he said that he believes that only maybe 10% of his congregants listening to a sermon actually take it seriously enough to implement the teachings into their lives. He went on to say that most people take their moral directions from family, close friends, and even other associates before they take what's written in the scriptures or said from the pulpit.

A study I saw about three decades ago concluded much the same, with religious teachings being either 4th or 5th when it comes to personal choices.

 

[metis]

You know the problem with getting real? Everyone has a different idea about what is real.

But they shouldn't as the Truth, whatever that may be, should not be reliant on personal opinion.