Let's Sit and Talk...

[Vinayaka]

Baha'is love diversity but we also recognize a common Divine Source over the epochs ... By finding common ground we are also celebrating that Source. Finding common ground does not mean we must all be uniform and conforming.

And that's where we differ, and why I've always found it a bit of a headache to have discussions with Bahais. It works better to have no discussion.

 

[Vinayaka]

Vinayaka-ji, I hear what you're saying, and I absolutely agree: celebrating the diversities amongst human beings is a very groovy thing! I guess the common ground is not as important as establishing that mutual respect, that acceptance among followers of different religions. To be willing to eagerly listen to the different perspectives on religion is truly enlightening, and we as Bahá’ís, going back to the examples set for us by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, encourage all people to fellowship peacefully with one another, worship with one another, discuss with one another, study with each other. Discovering similarities, I think, are one of the by-products of these things, y’know?

Thank you for this. Over the years I've also discovered that Bahais vary on their pushiness. Some folks do know how to back off, whilst others will keep sharing on and on. I often feel it's proselytizing, and will disappear from the dialogue. Nobody likes to be told how to think.

Your last sentence reads like this for me: Discovering similarities AND differences, I think, is one of the by-products of these things, y'know? In my experience, some Bahais won't accept that there are some really vast differences. They either aren't listening, or just choose to ignore it.

But each has to follow his heart. I manage to tolerate the Bahai easily simply because of the non-violent approach. That's enough of a similarity for me, and it is a huge one.

 

[whirlingmerc]

I think it's important to represent people's view fairly and not caricature them or be overly reductionistic

 

[Windwalker]

Windwalker, I think that you'll find that we Bahá’ís are the least interested in trying to convert people to our religion, trying to forcefully convince them of our understandings of things. We don't put any pressure on anyone to declare faith in Bahá’u’lláh.

When I gave my example of pressure, I'm not talking forceful pressure. I'm talking about what happens when a desire to belong exists, or is created by a group, how that that desire biases and filters how someone reads something. In no small way is this a factor in how everyone finds ways to agree in order to belong to a group. It's part of our natural socialization. That pressure that exists is a natural one, and in the case of groups which tend to have active proselytizing efforts, it's a pressure that is exploited by them. The thing is that they themselves don't believe they are because they claim they are not "forcing" the choice on others. But the pressure exists nonetheless, and that pressure influences the person.

Therefore, claims of "independent investigation" are really not truly that at all. That sort of purely "objective" investigation tends to only happen in the sciences, not someone deciding what religion to follow. And even then in the sciences, that pressure influences that objectivity as well! Therefore, "independent investigation" is really nothing more than a sales slogan which "sounds objective", but in reality it truly doesn't exist. It's a marketing spin to make it sound purely objective.

Again, don't conflate the pressure I'm talking about with "force". Equate it rather as subtle, yet strong pressure which is existent naturally, and is exploited by one degree or another by the makeup of the individual person "sharing" their religion with another. It's always there whenever any interest is shown, especially to the point where they are willing to "investigate" it.

Study all religions, investigate them, and you decide whether or not you believe in any one of them. If you decide that the Bahá’í Faith, or Christianity, or Buddhism, or Paganism, or your own set of beliefs is what rings true for you, pursue that! You do your own thing!

And when you say this to a potential prospect, do you hand him any literature for him to read that has been designed to present your faith in such a light as to introduce them to the community of believers? Photos of beautiful temples, flowing gardens, smiling and happy people fellowshipping together, poetically selected passages from the sacred texts, and so forth? That's marketing. And marketing is all about influencing choices. Period.

I said that the quote was also referring to the Prophets, the Messengers of God. Speaking of whom (prophets, holy teachers), do you know another purpose for such as these? To guide people towards the right ways of living, the ways that God has for them to live. To get people back on track. That, I believe, is God's Message for people. I believe that it's been the same throughout all time, every culture. Obey the commandments of God (or, varyingly, follow your religion wholeheartedly), and be a righteous person. That’s it, man! It don't get anymore complicated than that. That's another reason, I believe, Bahá’ís we don't push our religion on people or we don't say other religions are wrong, even that they originate from God and “are reflections of His Will and Purpose”. Don't they all (or most of them, at least) teach love, and compassion, and mercy, and righteous living?

Again, while on the surface it sounds so simple, but in practice that's not how these things pan out. The fact in that passage that it equated those who reject these messengers as the equivalent of rejecting God goes it a step much beyond simply equating them as rejecting Love. If I were to say to you, Baha'u'llah was no different than I am in the insights I have, and in fact, I could say he simply was doing the best he could given what light he had available to him at the time, and I find myself today at odds with many of his declarations of truth, would you take that as me rejecting God?

If you answer that in the affirmative, that you see me, or anyone who does not see Baha'u'llah as literally Daystars of Divine Guidance ordained and sent by God Himself, you don't consider that pressure, in the extreme? To say the non-acceptance of some individual's "Prophethood", equates to a direct rejection of God himself, I would call that anything but a gentle persuasion! Wouldn't you? It makes them an enemy of God!

Back to why Shoghi chose the King James English, similar to The Holy Bible, he did so for two reasons:

#1) The level of reverence, the type of deep respect that such a translation establishes in people. (Shoot, is there any wonder as to its immense popularity, even today? )

Personally I find it rather distracting, like it's contrived trying to make it sound more sanctified that way. I'm much happier reading the poetry of the words themselves and let it speak to me in a language appropriate to the time it was written in, or translated during. I can accept the King James English because that's how it was spoken when it was translated. Trying to imitate that sound feels a bit "forced" to me, like I'm being manipulated.

#2) Shoghi had felt that the King James English would be the truest to the original Persian and Arabic Writings in both translation and establishing that reverence I talked about in my previous point.

In ending, King James English is ‘The Beatles’ of English. This version of The Holy Bible is STILL, EVEN AFTER 405 YEARS OF IT'S COMPLETION, THE BEST-SELLING ENGLISH-LANGUAGE BOOK OF ALL TIME! This version of The Holy Bible had an incaluably everlasting influence on the way an entire language was spoken!! If you had the eyes to see, dear Windwalker.

Be careful in assuming I do not have eyes to see, dear DJ. My eyes penetrate things quite clearly, and deeply. Do you assume my spiritual depth and insight based on not seeing things through the eyes of the Baha'i faith as you see? If so, this proves my point I have been making from the very outset about that undeserved "smugness" that others outside them live in a lesser light than they of the Baha'is who have their eyes opened. I guarantee you, that is hardly the case here. My eyes are opened.

 

[Windwalker]

Baha'is love diversity but we also recognize a common Divine Source over the epochs ... By finding common ground we are also celebrating that Source. Finding common ground does not mean we must all be uniform and conforming.

I only have a minute to post a response to this and can't do it justice right now. @Vinayaka I believe, expresses a complaint many times I can agree with here. Sometimes common ground is not possible, or where it can possibly be found it is not strong enough to overcome differences where either side ultimately feels comfortable with the other. This is the problem inherent in "interfaith dialog" or in trying to create syncretic systems. As strongly as I hate and despise the cliche', the result ends up being simply a case of "we agree to disagree". That is not truly finding Unity.

This is the failure of such efforts, and I have a long train of thought I could go into explaining why it ultimately doesn't work. But to me, to be a religion that claims to see that Unity of Spirit, it requires the members of that religion to go beyond their own religion, to set aside their own beliefs and ideas and to discard in onto the floor along with everyone else's clothing of their religion they are wearing and to stand completely naked with each other (metaphorically speaking here of course). This "commonality" is only found by going beyond your religion, not trying to find commonalities. Unity happens in Love itself, which in order to truly know, you have to at its Gate drop off everything you are wearing and walk through it naked. That elusive, sought out Unity exists in the Heart, not in common practices and beliefs.

Enough for now....

 

[arthra]

Windwalker..

Thanks for your post. I think you may be focusing on an importantr issue and I hope you'll have time to explore it further. It's not that Baha'is are "looking" for commonalities and forgetting the uniqueness of their own Faith.... What we acknowledge is that over time and with the changes and exegeses of the challenges facing humanity there are different remedies prescribed for the time that are suited to that time... Humanity overtime matures and faces new challenges hence the need for appropriate laws and perspectives of the era.

THe other part of our perspective can also be seen in inter-faith gatherings on the local and international levels where we share a common ground and this I think is more of a spiritual sense... Yes we differ but in many ways we share common interests and spiritual yearnings that tell of a common Source.

 

[arthra]

Therefore, claims of "independent investigation" are really not truly that at all. That sort of purely "objective" investigation tends to only happen in the sciences, not someone deciding what religion to follow. And even then in the sciences, that pressure influences that objectivity as well! Therefore, "independent investigation" is really nothing more than a sales slogan which "sounds objective", but in reality it truly doesn't exist. It's a marketing spin to make it sound purely objective.

Search for spiritual reality can be as experimental as "scientific" inquiry for the individual. It depends on your maturity... The unique experiences each of us have.

Also "independent investigation of truth" is not a mere slogan. It means we do not follow someone merely because they have "authority" or represent tradition but because we truly and sincerely value searching for spiritual reality.

I'll add some citations here:

Among these teachings was the independent investigation of reality so that the world of humanity may be saved from the darkness of imitation and attain to the truth; may tear off and cast away this ragged and outgrown garment of 1,000 years ago and may put on the robe woven in the utmost purity and holiness in the loom of reality.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith, p. 285

Discover for yourselves the reality of things, and strive to assimilate the methods by which noble-mindedness and glory are attained among the nations and people of the world.

No man should follow blindly his ancestors and forefathers. Nay, each must see with his own eyes, hear with his own ears and investigate independently in order that he may find the truth. The religion of forefathers and ancestors is based upon blind imitation. Man should investigate reality.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 24

I'll provide an example of how the principle operates for us... When a young Baha'i reaches fifteen years of age he/she is considered to have achieved an age of spiritual maturity. THey can decide whether or not they should be a Baha'i or adopt another faith... When my children reached that age they made a decision of their own without pressure from me.

It is important, however, that whatever method of enrollments is used or card adopted, it is clear to such children that they had been Bahá'ís up to that time, and that on attaining the age of spiritual maturity they are reaffirming their belief in Bahá'u'lláh.

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 155)

Upon Attainment of Age 15 Child Must Reaffirm his Faith

"...Both children of Bahá'í parents, and children who, with their non-Bahá'í parents' consent, declare their Faith in Bahá'u'lláh before they are fifteen years old, are regarded as Bahá'í and it is within a Spiritual Assembly's discretion to request such children to undertake work of which they are capable in the service of the Faith, such as service on suitable committees. However, upon attaining the age of fifteen a child becomes spiritually mature and is responsible for stating on his own behalf whether or not he wishes to remain a member of the baha'i community. If he does not then reaffirm his faith, he must be treated, administratively, as a non-Bahá'í."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of Brazil, December 12, 1975: Ibid)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 155)

 

[Sundance]

When I gave my example of pressure, I'm not talking forceful pressure. I'm talking about what happens when a desire to belong exists, or is created by a group, how that that desire biases and filters how someone reads something. In no small way is this a factor in how everyone finds ways to agree in order to belong to a group. It's part of our natural socialization. That pressure that exists is a natural one, and in the case of groups which tend to have active proselytizing efforts, it's a pressure that is exploited by them. The thing is that they themselves don't believe they are because they claim they are not "forcing" the choice on others. But the pressure exists nonetheless, and that pressure influences the person.

Therefore, claims of "independent investigation" are really not truly that at all. That sort of purely "objective" investigation tends to only happen in the sciences, not someone deciding what religion to follow. And even then in the sciences, that pressure influences that objectivity as well! Therefore, "independent investigation" is really nothing more than a sales slogan which "sounds objective", but in reality it truly doesn't exist. It's a marketing spin to make it sound purely objective.

Again, don't conflate the pressure I'm talking about with "force". Equate it rather as subtle, yet strong pressure which is existent naturally, and is exploited by one degree or another by the makeup of the individual person "sharing" their religion with another. It's always there whenever any interest is shown, especially to the point where they are willing to "investigate" it.

Windwalker, brother, I will tell you: that ‘independent investigation of truth’ principle, yeeeeah, we Bahá’ís take that seriously. THAT AIN'T NO JOKE. I'm living proof of that. Such a teaching cannot, must not be belittled, as you seem to do. We Bahá’ís tell people to apply this to ALL religions, ALL holy writings. Read with your own eyes, think with your own mind. All we do is teach people about our Faith, not push them to convert.

And when you say this to a potential prospect, do you hand him any literature for him to read that has been designed to present your faith in such a light as to introduce them to the community of believers? Photos of beautiful temples, flowing gardens, smiling and happy people fellowshipping together, poetically selected passages from the sacred texts, and so forth? That's marketing. And marketing is all about influencing choices. Period.

We do those things as Bahá’ís, yes, but beyond that (and far more importantly), we offer them (only if the other person wants to have them) some copies of Bahá'u'lláh's Writings, His own Words. We do invite people (this, of their own volition) a few glimpses the Faith through the means you've described, and those things are wonderful, dude, but it's the Writings that really draw the hearts of people, because on these, my faith as a Bahá’í is built, not magnificent houses of worship, breathtaking gardens, and all that jazz, as beautiful as those are.

And as someone who took a business course in high school, I vehemently disagree with your assessment of marketing. Marketing is merely about advertising a product, not necessarily getting people to buy it. Some advertisements are more aggressive in tone or feel, plenty of others are not. Some people do buy what's advertised on TV, sometimes. That's cool! Even if the consumers end up not purchasing the product, at least they know it's an option for their own consideration. What you are describing is one kind of marketing, one form of that. Drawing comparisons between your product and someone's else, trying to show people that yours is better. If you're somehow implying that we do this religiously as Bahá’ís, then you will surely be disappointed by the truth of the matter: we don't. We don't make comparisons on the superiority of our religion to any another.

Again, while on the surface it sounds so simple, but in practice that's not how these things pan out. The fact in that passage that it equated those who reject these messengers as the equivalent of rejecting God goes it a step much beyond simply equating them as rejecting Love. If I were to say to you, Baha'u'llah was no different than I am in the insights I have, and in fact, I could say he simply was doing the best he could given what light he had available to him at the time, and I find myself today at odds with many of his declarations of truth, would you take that as me rejecting God?

I mean, if you decide to not believe in Bahá’u’lláh's Revelation, I would feel sad, because it is just so beautiful. However, The Holy Spirit is the Source of all Divine Inspiration and Revelation, the same for all humankind. The Messengers of God, the Founders or Major Figures of the world's major religions were all channels through whom the Holy Spirit so powerfully moved, bringing us as humankind different chapters, different facets of God's Revelation. Bahá’u’lláh, I believe, is the One who brought it for this Day and Age. Beyond this, The Spirit very much so moves in the hearts of all people, even people (in my estimation) who may not have any sort of religion at all. Ain't that groovy? So, to answer your question, no. I would not take your rejection of Bahá’u’lláh (strictly speaking) as you rejecting God. Only when you reject The Holy Spirit – who spoke the Truth through Bahá’u’lláh (and really, all the Messengers of God), the Same who, from within their hearts, guides all people into Truth and the fruit thereof, namely righteous living – do you reject God.

If you answer that in the affirmative, that you see me, or anyone who does not see Baha'u'llah as literally a Daystar of Divine Guidance ordained and sent by God Himself, you don't consider that pressure, in the extreme? To say the non-acceptance of some individual's "Prophethood", equates to a direct rejection of God himself, I would call that anything but a gentle persuasion! Wouldn't you? It makes them an enemy of God!

A couple of things:

#1) I had answered in the negative.

#2) If you don't accept Bahá’u’lláh as the Messenger of God for our Day and Age, that's perfectly fine with me. God's Message, His Vision as revealed through Bahá’u’lláh is world-embracing, it encompasses the whole of the human family! So, people who are not Bahá’ís are in no way, shape, or form excluded from the Most Divine Plan. Because, it takes all of us to bring that Peace, that Everlasting Unity into a world that so desperately needs it. You ain't got to be a Bahá’í, you just gotta be human, y’know?

Personally I find it rather distracting, like it's contrived trying to make it sound more sanctified that way. I'm much happier reading the poetry of the words themselves and let it speak to me in a language appropriate to the time it was written in, or translated during. I can accept the King James English because that's how it was spoken when it was translated. Trying to imitate that sound feels a bit "forced" to me, like I'm being manipulated.

That's OK, man. I understand. Though, when you're tackling something you consider to be Holy Scripture, I believe it to be more respectful when rendered in a formal kind of way, y’know? That's just me.

Be careful in assuming I do not have eyes to see, dear DJ. My eyes penetrate things quite clearly, and deeply. Do you assume my spiritual depth and insight based on not seeing things through the eyes of the Baha'i faith as you see? If so, this proves my point I have been making from the very outset about that undeserved "smugness" that others outside them live in a lesser light than they of the Baha'is who have their eyes opened. I guarantee you, that is hardly the case here. My eyes are opened.

If you feel that I have insulted you through what I've said or my delivery thereof, I humbly apologize.

I'm not speaking about religion or spirituality here, I'm speaking to literature, to language. The version of the Bible which uses the same King James English is the same version of the Bible that had contributed more than ANY OTHER SOURCE OF MATERIAL, INCLUDING THE WORKS OF SHAKESPEARE, to the development of the English language as we know it. Not only is a spiritual treasure for other such reasons as this, but dude, IT IS A LITERARY MASTERPIECE, PURE LINGUISTIC PERFECTION...

 

[The_Fisher_King]

None of the four Indian religions is a revealed religion

This implies that there are four Indian religions and no more. Which particular four do you have in mind?

 

[Vinayaka]

This implies that there are four Indian religions and no more. Which particular four do you have in mind?

Commonly ... Jainism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Sikhism ... I'm thinking he probably meant dharmic religions, not Indian, but that too.

That's how its classified in this forum.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Commonly ... Jainism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Sikhism ... I'm thinking he probably meant dharmic religions, not Indian, but that too.

That's how its classified in this forum.

Yeah, but I think you know what I'm going to say...

 

[Vinayaka]

Yeah, but I think you know what I'm going to say...

I'll leave it for you to argue it our with Aup then. He's the one who said it, not me.

 

[Windwalker]

And as someone who took a business course in high school, I vehemently disagree with your assessment of marketing.

I'm going to respond to the rest of your post later, but had jump both feet in on this section when I read it! To borrow the poker betting analogy here, I'll call your "business course in high school," I raise you this this. My father owned an operated several advertising agencies, owned and operating a radio station, etc, I worked with him for many years. I've take Marketing and Advertizing course in college, was the main production announcer for the advertizing commercials, and know for a fact that my job was to use my voice to persuade people to buy the product they were selling. I grew up in an Advertizing business and public relations family, knowing what is involved and have experience actively doing it as a career. I think that beats out your course in highschool just a little. So your "vehement" disagreement seem to be lacking more than just a few teeth here by comparison to a fairly full set of teeth over here.

Marketing is merely about advertising a product, not necessarily getting people to buy it. Some advertisements are more aggressive in tone or feel, plenty of others are not. Some people do buy what's advertised on TV, sometimes. That's cool! Even if the consumers end up not purchasing the product, at least they know it's an option for their own consideration.

If you walked into a business trying to sell them advertizing and you were to say to them what you just said, "Our marketing your product for you is not about getting people to buy it," I'm sure their response would be somewhere between, "Why the hell are you here then", and "This guy doesn't know his own business selling advertizing! What is wrong inside his head?" In either case they'd pretty much laugh at you as they showed you the door. All advertising is about one thing only, "getting people to buy it", whatever that "it" is. That's their job as advertizing. That what advertizing is for.

(You could add name or brand recognition to into there, but that too is with the end goal to sell their product by created a "trusted name" for people to go to. It's still about getting people to buy their products they sell).

What you are describing is one kind of marketing, one form of that. Drawing comparisons between your product and someone's else, trying to show people that yours is better.

No, actually it's just simply a type of sales approach when others have similar products to your own. You present someone with what you are offering for them to buy, show them all the wonderful benefits that await them, then tell them to take your brochures with them, look them over, then go shop around at the other stores and see if they find something that would speak to them more, but you're pretty sure they'll like what you're offering and will come back (even if you don't say those words themselves, it is in the subtext of course, as why else would he advize the prospect to go shop elsewhere. This is about establishing yourself a "good guy", someone they would want to buisness with, because who else would be so honest with them!

Then the rest of it goes like this. The minefield of religious beliefs and opinions can take a lifetime of research and still come up not knowing what's what! So, "that guy who told me to go do my own research and come back if I found his religion a good fit, he seemed such and nice, honest person. I can trust him. He seems to know what's going on. He can get me into the right thing I'm looking for". That's advertising and selling a product. You basically end up with the sale because you were the better sales guy, establishing trust, whereas the other guys were all pushy and confusing to them. That's the trick. They rest of it, the product itself takes care of itself for customer satisfaction.

The reality of it is of course, is that no one really knows if it's a good fit until they actually buy and try using it for awhile. Doing "independent research" will never really tell you what it is to actually buy that sofa and sit in it awhile to see it you like it. You're buying something subjective, from those who try to sell it as an "objective" thing. You live religion, you can "research it".

If you're somehow implying that we do this religiously as Bahá’ís, then you will surely be disappointed by the truth of the matter: we don't. We don't make comparisons on the superiority of our religion to any another.

Do you ever send people who come to you over to another religion because you think it would be a better fit for them? And I'm not talking about booting them out for something they did or didn't do, but actively try to help that person find their spiritual truth and guidance in another religion for their sake? I'm very interested to know if you did do something like that. That would say something to me.

I'll finish my reply later. I did just have to jump on this one first. I'll swing back around to it later when I talk about how religions are business and they need to sell their products in order to stay alive. I went to college and got a degree to become a minister. That's not cynicism speaking in what I just said. Growing up with both a businessman and advertising man, it's something my father pointed out to me, and he was spot on the money. I know a bit about what I'm talking about regarding this.

 

[Vinayaka]

I've often observed that in a two faith interfaith 'discussion', generally one learns a lot about the other one, whilst in the opposite direction it is very little, if nothing at all. I think that says a lot.

 

[Desert Snake]

My apologies, syncretic, I meant, “constructive criticism”.

As opposed to what other kind?

 

[Sundance]

I'm going to respond to the rest of your post later, but had jump both feet in on this section when I read it! To borrow the poker betting analogy here, I'll call your "business course in high school," I raise you this this. My father owned an operated several advertising agencies, owned and operating a radio station, etc, I worked with him for many years. I've take Marketing and Advertizing course in college, was the main production announcer for the advertizing commercials, and know for a fact that my job was to use my voice to persuade people to buy the product they were selling. I grew up in an Advertizing business and public relations family, knowing what is involved and have experience actively doing it as a career. I think that beats out your course in highschool just a little. So your "vehement" disagreement seem to be lacking more than just a few teeth here by comparison to a fairly full set of teeth over here.


If you walked into a business trying to sell them advertizing and you were to say to them what you just said, "Our marketing your product for you is not about getting people to buy it," I'm sure their response would be somewhere between, "Why the hell are you here then", and "This guy doesn't know his own business selling advertizing! What is wrong inside his head?" In either case they'd pretty much laugh at you as they showed you the door. All advertising is about one thing only, "getting people to buy it", whatever that "it" is. That's their job as advertizing. That what advertizing is for.

(You could add name or brand recognition to into there, but that too is with the end goal to sell their product by created a "trusted name" for people to go to. It's still about getting people to buy their products they sell).


No, actually it's just simply a type of sales approach when others have similar products to your own. You present someone with what you are offering for them to buy, show them all the wonderful benefits that await them, then tell them to take your brochures with them, look them over, then go shop around at the other stores and see if they find something that would speak to them more, but you're pretty sure they'll like what you're offering and will come back (even if you don't say those words themselves, it is in the subtext of course, as why else would he advize the prospect to go shop elsewhere. This is about establishing yourself a "good guy", someone they would want to buisness with, because who else would be so honest with them!

Then the rest of it goes like this. The minefield of religious beliefs and opinions can take a lifetime of research and still come up not knowing what's what! So, "that guy who told me to go do my own research and come back if I found his religion a good fit, he seemed such and nice, honest person. I can trust him. He seems to know what's going on. He can get me into the right thing I'm looking for". That's advertising and selling a product. You basically end up with the sale because you were the better sales guy, establishing trust, whereas the other guys were all pushy and confusing to them. That's the trick.


Do you ever send people who come to you over to another religion because you think it would be a better fit for them? And I'm not talking about booting them out for something they did or didn't do, but actively try to help that person find their spiritual truth and guidance in another religion for their sake? I'm very interested to know if you did do something like that. That would say something to me.

I'll finish my reply later. I did just have to jump on this one first. I'll swing back around to it later when I talk about how religions are business and they need to sell their products in order to stay alive. I went to college and got a degree to become a minister. That's not cynicism speaking in what I just said. Growing up with both a businessman and advertising man, it's something my father pointed out to me, and he was spot on the money. I know a bit about what I'm talking about regarding this.

Ah, then. I bow before your depth of experience.

 

[Windwalker]

Ah, then. I bow before your depth of experience.

And so then in light of that, do you have any opinions on what I wrote? Any questions or concerns about it?

 

[Sundance]

And so then in light of that, do you have any opinions on what I wrote? Any questions or concerns about it?

I never answered your question:

If someone had came to me looking for a religion, I would absolutely encourage them to find something better for them. My religion doesn't work for everybody, and that's all right! Every person, I believe, should investigate different religions for him- or herself, worship at different houses of worship, read the writings of other religions, and use their heart and mind in discerning which one most speaks to them. I would even go as far as accompanying them on their journey! (What? You don't honestly believe that we Bahá’ís are a close-minded bunch, do you?)

 

[Sundance]

As opposed to what other kind?

Negative criticism, of course....

 

[Vinayaka]

Negative criticism, of course....

This is tricky. I remember in my teaching career and trying to help some students who were sensitive. (Thank God the extremes were pretty rare.) All comments by me were seen as negative. There was little I could do to help them. They'd been living in the 'positive self-esteem' school of parenting far too long. Cursing at and hitting other kids on the playground was just their unique personality shining through, to the parents. (I exaggerate for effect.)

The point is that someone may FEEL that they're giving you constructive criticism, but if you feel it isn't it isn't.