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Let's talk about Hell

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
He doesn't. He warns about being thrown onto the fires of Gehenna. A real place where trash and the bodies of criminals were burnt. In other words, - don't sin, and you won't end up a criminal, discarded on the burning trash heap.

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So, since these verses are talking about a place that doesn't exist anymore, they are not for us?




Mark 9:43-49 (ESV Strong's) 43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 48 ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ 49 For everyone will be salted with fire.


"Gehenna" is the place where Jesus said that the Pharisees were headed, but it is simply a symbol for everlasting death.

"Sheol" is the common grave of mankind...there is no conscious existence in this place (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) ...in fact we all "go to hell".

Gehenna - (Olive Tree Enhanced Strong's Dictionary) g1067. γέεννα geenna; of Hebrew origin (h1516 and h2011); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: — hell. AV (12) - hell 9, hell fire + g3588 + g4442 3;
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
I learned about hell from South Park. :p

Christmastimeinhell.JPG
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Gehenna - (Olive Tree Enhanced Strong's Dictionary) g1067. γέεννα geenna; of Hebrew origin (h1516 and h2011); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: — hell. AV (12) - hell 9, hell fire + g3588 + g4442 3;

You know, if you put down your prejudice for 5 minutes, you might actually learn something.
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"Everlasting punishment"....doesn't have to be conscious. "The dead know nothing" (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) When a person breathes their last, they are no longer able to think or feel or plan anything. (Psalm 146:4) Their "spirit" (breath) has left their body....so the soul is dead. (Ezekiel 18:4) You cannot punish something that is dead.

The "fire" of gehenna comes from the Valley of Hinnom, once used to sacrifice Israelite children to a false god. (Jeremiah 7:31) Jehovah stopped that practice and turned the valley into a garbage dump where those guilty of capital crimes had their bodies cast as unworthy of a decent burial. No memorial tomb meant no resurrection to a Jew....hence the eternal punishment of never seeing life again. Nothing alive was ever thrown into gehenna.

The fires in this place were kept burning day and night by the addition of brimstone (sulfur) so what the flames missed, the maggots finished off.

Please complete your research.
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"gehenna" is not "hades"....do you know the difference?
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Thank you for validating what I have been trying to show witnesses all along. Witnesses are taught, and believe, that when they die they are acquitted of their sin, "on the basis of Jesus' sacrifice".

*** bh p. 214 pars. 2-3 Judgment Day—What Is It? ***
During that thousand-year period, Jesus Christ will “judge the living and the dead.” (2 Timothy 4:1) “The living” will be the “great crowd” that survives Armageddon. (Revelation 7:9-17) The apostle John also saw “the dead . . . standing before the throne” of judgment. As Jesus promised, “those in the memorial tombs will hear [Christ’s] voice and come out” by means of a resurrection. (John 5:28, 29; Acts 24:15) But on what basis will all be judged?
According to the apostle John’s vision, “scrolls were opened,” and “the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.” Are these scrolls the record of people’s past deeds? No, the judgment will not focus on what people did before they died. How do we know that? The Bible says: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” (Romans 6:7) Those resurrected thus come to life with a clean slate, so to speak. The scrolls must therefore represent God’s further requirements. To live forever, both Armageddon survivors and resurrected ones will have to obey God’s commandments, including whatever new requirements Jehovah might reveal during the thousand years. Thus, individuals will be judged on the basis of what they do during Judgment Day.

They teach that since Jesus sacrificed Himself, "OUR" death frees us from sin. Jesus' sacrifice wasn't enough, we have to die also to be acquitted from sin.

Actually that isn't totally correct. The verses go on to tell the followers to not sin going forward.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

It tells us those whom have died with Jesus are freed from sin - HOWEVER - it goes on to say - thus don't sin.

ALL are judged in Sheol.

The problem there is that Christians - after Jesus' death - wrote the Christian Bible; and things have been added to the end time story.

Yes, we are told there will be a Final Judgment.

Jesus was a Jew. They taught that all - both good and bad - went to Sheol, to await Final Judgment.

Some rest/sleep at peace in the Bosom of Abraham. The rest being sinners, tremble in their sleep, knowing they can no longer rectify their wrongs, and as sinners will face Final Judgment.

Jesus is just saying his followers are already tried (with him) and thus have no fear of Judgment, whereas the rest whom also will be Judged, won't rise from Sheol. The second death.

Psalms 49:14-15 “As sheep they are appointed for Sheol; Death shall be their shepherd; And the upright shall rule over them in the morning, And their form shall be for Sheol to consume So that they have no habitation. 15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol, For He will receive me.”

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and Hades/Sheol delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 20:14 And death and Hades/Sheol were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Note that they are - judged - AFTER the sea (the unburied) and Hades/Sheol delivers them up – for judgment!

After the "Final Judgment" both death AND "Hades" are thrown into the "lake of fire!"

The "HOLDING PLACE" is no longer needed!

WHY: The "SECOND DEATH" "FINAL JUDGMENT" has been made!


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Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
So, since these verses are talking about a place that doesn't exist anymore, they are not for us?

They were talking to people at the time whom understood the imagery. Correct translations and understanding the time, would clear things up for modern readers.

Mark 9:43-49 (ESV Strong's) 43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 48 ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ 49 For everyone will be salted with fire.

It doesn't say hell. It says Gehenna - which was a real place where trash and the bodies of criminals were burnt.

The Words used in the Bible are Gehenna, Sheol, Tartarus, and Hades. “Hell” is a mistranslation of these words.

“Hell” doesn't appears in ancient biblical texts. Martin Luther mistranslated it when he translated the Bible (sixteenth century) into German. He translated the word “Hades” into hell (German Hölle). Hel in Norse underworld mythology is ruled by the Goddess Hel.

So “Gehenna”, is “Sheol,” as is “Hades.“

Like “Hel” in Norse mythology, “Hades” is the ancient Greek underworld of the dead.

Hades in the New Testament is from Greek influence. So the word Hades would have been used in place of “Sheol”.

In Greek Hades translates into “Hidden”, or “unseen,” And may have been used by Jesus in place of Sheol.

- (Olive Tree Enhanced Strong's Dictionary) g1067. γέεννα geenna; of Hebrew origin (h1516 and h2011); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: — hell. AV (12) - hell 9, hell fire + g3588 + g4442 3;

The first part of the definition is correct, the end is Christian add-on only. Gehenna was not hell.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and Hades/Sheol delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 20:14 And death and Hades/Sheol were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Note that they are - judged - AFTER the sea (the unburied) and Hades/Sheol delivers them up – for judgment!

NOTE: After the "Final Judgment" both death AND "Hades" are thrown into the "lake of fire!"

The "HOLDING PLACE" is no longer needed!

WHY: The "SECOND DEATH" "FINAL JUDGMENT" has been made!

If Hades/Sheol isn't a place of holding for judgment, how can "IT" be tossed AFTER the Final Judgment????

If it is destroyed at judgment – how can it be hell?

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Muffled

Jesus in me
All mankind should hope to die before judgment day, so we can be acquitted from our sin and be resurrected with a clean slate, if only people that are "alive" at judgment day have no hope.

*** bh p. 214 par. 3 Judgment Day—What Is It? ***

According to the apostle John’s vision, “scrolls were opened,” and “the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.” Are these scrolls the record of people’s past deeds? No, the judgment will not focus on what people did before they died. How do we know that? The Bible says: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” (Romans 6:7) Those resurrected thus come to life with a clean slate, so to speak.

I don't believe that is what Paul means because this verse says differently: Heb 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment;

I believe what he means is that dead people are not able to commit any more sins. ie they are finished with sin. I thin the "from" is the key word.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
I don't believe that is what Paul means because this verse says differently: Heb 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment;

I believe what he means is that dead people are not able to commit any more sins. ie they are finished with sin. I thin the "from" is the key word.

If you read the first few verses of chapter 6, you'll see that Paul isn't talking about graveyard dead, he's talking about living people being dead in Christ.

Romans 6:1-4 (ESV Strong's) 1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.


When we are baptized into Jesus, we crucify our old sinful self and we become a new creation,

Romans 6:6-9 (ESV Strong's) 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.

2 Corinthians 5:17 (NKJV) 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
The fact that there are people out there that actually BELIEVE this tripe speaks to how truly primitive we still are as a species.

I believe it is evident that there is a lake of fire beneath the earth. Sometimes it erupts as a volcano onto the earth.
If you believe otherwise what facts are you looking at?
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Oh right. Lava is evidence of hell. I guess clouds are evidence of heaven?

Not sure how I missed that. It's so obvious.

I believe fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

I believe clouds are an evidence of a heaven but not of Heaven which lacks substance. There have been some who have made much of an emptiness in the Universe but maybe they were just referring to a black hole which is not empty.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Wait, so heaven has no substance but hell is just lava?

Noted.

I believe lava is what it is called after a volcanic eruption but while it is under the earth it is called magma. Temperatures of lava are around 2000F I believe and tends to incinerate anything in its path except rock.
 
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